![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 14 to 38 of 38. Go back in thread:
Posted by Phillipa on November 11, 2006, at 22:19:19
In reply to Re: Social Anxiety, Klonopin, Lyrica » Phillipa, posted by Crazy Horse on November 11, 2006, at 21:59:35
What I wouldn't do for a corona and lime. Love Jan
Posted by MARTY on November 13, 2006, at 4:59:56
In reply to Social Anxiety, Klonopin, Lyrica, posted by erik98225 on November 10, 2006, at 0:42:48
Very Prosocial indeed.
I take 300 mg bid (600mg day) and it helps a lot.
Good luck
Marty
Posted by friendobillnbob on November 13, 2006, at 7:31:40
In reply to Re: Social Anxiety, Klonopin, Lyrica, posted by Crazy Horse on November 11, 2006, at 18:29:15
> > I don't touch alcohol.... I've had problems with it in the past and go to AA meetings 2x a week.
> >
> > Oddly, I don't see how klonopin can be "fun" and I've never had the urge to take it recreationally. They say alcoholics can't use benzos correctly but I guess I'm the exception...
>
> Me too erik. I just recently celebrated two years of alcohol sobriety. I have no cravings/urges to abuse Klonopin at all. Congrats on your decision to abstain from alcohol. Since i have stopped drinking my depression is definitely not as severe and for the past 3 mos. pretty much non-existent. :)
>
> -Monte
>Hello;
My first time posting - I was greatly impressed with this thread, and Monte & Erik's posts as it speaks directly with my situation.
I've been sober and active in AA 20+ years now. In the beginning I was quite a hardliner and fearful of any medication, following the anti-medication line of thinking in the group where I got sober. This has changed quite a bit over the years - and I've been agonizing over a recent decision to start Clonazepam & Pregabalin for Social Phobia, tremors and involuntary limb movements while asleep.
I believe the tremors (essential tremor) which I experienced before ever picking up a drink, contributed to my Social Anxiety - and at age 14,
when I discovered that Alcohol seemed to be a perfect cure for both conditions, I became an instant alcoholic. AA re-introduced me to life on the planet after 10 years of progressively insane drinking, and helped me to break a lifelong phobia of public speaking, sober. While some gains were made in the area of my social phobia, AA of course did nothing for my tremor. It's happened more than once where in AA my tremor has been misinterpreted for coming off a drunk - and the tremor has gotten worse over the last few years (I'm 47 now). Worse, the tremor has got in my voice so that often if I do get nervous or excited it seems to me that others perceive me as if I am on the verge of cracking up - and react to it with facial expressions that convey either dismay or sympathy. Now this all has greatly contributed to an increase of my Social Phobia which has made my life really difficult lately. Things I could do rather easily before (presentations, dealing with people directly on difficult subjects) are much harder than before. I've had a few times over the last few years when i've felt close to losing my mind, and have sought relief in periodic usage of a few different kinds of Benzos. I haven't felt any inclination to abuse them and I've been careful to only use a small amount on an as-needed basis - but I'm afraid of my mind's ability to rationalise and escalate the dosaage, and have not shared about my Benzo use at meetings (only with a couple of members who I trust).On one hand my mind tells me I am totally crazy to be experimenting with these drugs - that I am putting my sobriety in deep peril for doing so - and especially guilty for not sharing this openly in AA ('we're only as sick as our secrets')
On the other hand I see my social anxiety is destroying my ability to hold my life together and affecting my work, family and even AA life (as I'm even finding it difficult to interact with other AAs recently). I need help and part of that might be in medication. (the big book also says to never discount the services of a good doctor or psychiatrist) I'm in the 'peak' of career and family obligations and I've got others who are depending on me to hold it together.
Anyhow I hope the Pregabalin will work as I prefer that to the Benzo profile, my first reaction to it was quite positive, and it seemed to help with my tremors if it continues to work it will be killing several birds with one stone.
God bless you all - and I hope that you all find the answers you need, giving you happiness and good health.
Posted by erik98225 on November 13, 2006, at 12:53:23
In reply to Friends of Bill Bob, posted by friendobillnbob on November 13, 2006, at 7:31:40
> I've had a few times over the last few years when i've felt close to losing my mind, and have sought relief in periodic usage of a few different kinds of Benzos. I haven't felt any inclination to abuse them and I've been careful to only use a small amount on an as-needed basis - but I'm afraid of my mind's ability to rationalise and escalate the dosaage, and have not shared about my Benzo use at meetings (only with a couple of members who I trust).
I take both the clonazepam and pregabalin daily... this is a pretty high dose (1.5 clonazepam is equal to 60 diazepam IIRC), but coming off it isn't the living hell that Professor Ashton makes it out to be. If you take a seizure medicine like depakote during the benzo withdrawal it practically eliminates the symptoms and you can be off it in about 3 DAYS.
Of course, having experienced life on and off benzos, I've decided to take benzos.... I say if it helps you, you should take it -- no matter what AA says.
I have not shared about my benzo use in AA meetings, because I know what they're going to say: "Benzodiazepine is like alcohol in a pill!" This is BS... clonazepam is basically all the good effects of alcohol with none of the bad effects (drunkenness, hangovers and liver damage). I'm surprised benzos aren't prescribed more often to recovering alcoholics, because a lot of them have underlying anxiety disorders that drive them to drink!
Posted by FredPotter on November 13, 2006, at 14:11:14
In reply to AA, Anxiety, Benzos, Benzo Withdrawal » friendobillnbob, posted by erik98225 on November 13, 2006, at 12:53:23
I was told by my pdoc that 80% of alcoholics got there because of anxiety and/or/ depression. AA are very silly about benzos
Posted by erik98225 on November 13, 2006, at 15:06:46
In reply to Re: AA, Anxiety, Benzos, Benzo Withdrawal » erik98225, posted by FredPotter on November 13, 2006, at 14:11:14
> I was told by my pdoc that 80% of alcoholics got there because of anxiety and/or/ depression. AA are very silly about benzos
I know. AA says benzos is like drinking, and some even say you have to change your AA birthday if you take a benzo.
(Donning asbestos underwear...)
I personally think all alcoholic beverages should have all the alcohol removed, and a really short acting benzo (midazolam?) added in its place.Who knows how many livers it would save.
Posted by Erica1986 on November 13, 2006, at 21:38:15
In reply to Re: Social Anxiety, Klonopin, Lyrica » erik98225, posted by tensor on November 11, 2006, at 14:44:53
Different meds do different things for different people. I love my Klonopin. I take 1 mg twice a day and not only has it helped my Generalized Anxiety Disorder and Panic Disorder, but it has made me more social. I enjoy being around people more. I don't worry as much about what other people think of me. Strangely enough, Klonopin also gives me an anti-depressant feeling. I feel happier. Maybe it's just because i'm not so nervous and jittery. I don't know. Either way, Klonopin is my miracle pill. I was on Xanax for awhile, and although it worked well, it was too short lived and I hated having to take them 3-4 times a day.
After trying so many different meds (don't even get me started on the SSRI'S. Prozac wasn't so bad but the rest were terrible), finally finding something like Klonopin is truly a Godsend. Maybe you just need a higher dose. My psychiatrist started me out on .25 twice a day and we worked our way up on it until I finally felt immense relief from the debilitating anxiety.
Posted by Phillipa on November 13, 2006, at 22:44:00
In reply to Re: Social Anxiety, Klonopin, Lyrica, posted by Erica1986 on November 13, 2006, at 21:38:15
We're definitely all different as klonopin depresses me. I wonder why? Love Phillipa
Posted by christophrejmc on November 15, 2006, at 16:53:32
In reply to AA, Anxiety, Benzos, Benzo Withdrawal » friendobillnbob, posted by erik98225 on November 13, 2006, at 12:53:23
Posted by Phillipa on November 15, 2006, at 19:36:37
In reply to Re: Social Anxiety, Klonopin, Lyrica » Erica1986, posted by Phillipa on November 13, 2006, at 22:44:00
Yup and there is an equivalency board on babble. Love Phillipa
Posted by erik98225 on November 18, 2006, at 4:51:56
In reply to 1.5mg clonazepam is more like ~15mg diazepam, FYI (nm) » erik98225, posted by christophrejmc on November 15, 2006, at 16:53:32
> 1.5mg clonazepam is more like ~15mg diazepam, FYI
In my personal experience, 1.5 clonazepam = 3.0 alprazolam = 60 diazepam (I've taken all three). Your mileage may vary.
Clonazepam is my benzo of choice because it's the least sedating and has about a 12 hour effect (I take 0.5 in the morning and 1.0 at night). I like the antidepressant effect of Alprazolam, but the 3x a day dosing is annoying.
Posted by erik98225 on November 18, 2006, at 4:54:56
In reply to Re: Social Anxiety, Klonopin, Lyrica, posted by Crazy Horse on November 11, 2006, at 18:29:15
> I just recently celebrated two years of alcohol sobriety. I have no cravings/urges to abuse Klonopin at all. Congrats on your decision to abstain from alcohol. Since i have stopped drinking my depression is definitely not as severe and for the past 3 mos. pretty much non-existent. :)
I have 46 or 47 days of sobriety today (depending on your time zone!) and feel better than I have in years.
According to AA and the treatment center, though, because I'm taking Klonopin I'm not sober.
Idiots.
Posted by friendobillnbob on November 18, 2006, at 10:34:21
In reply to Benzos and AA (vent) » Crazy Horse, posted by erik98225 on November 18, 2006, at 4:54:56
Hi there
Congratulations on your 46 or 47 days of sobriety. I was talking today with a friend of mine in the program, and mentioned to him about prior to receiving my 21 year chip earlier this year I was asking myself if I really 'deserved' it, as many of my colleages over the years have changed their sobriety dates after such med use. I could say with all honesty that YES I did deserve it as a member of ALCOHOLICS Anonymous I have not had a drink of alcohol for over 21 years. Unfortunately AA has not been the answer to all my problems, but it is with great gratitude that the 'Mr Hyde' of my active alcohol use has not resurfaced, while I do continue to deal with life, it's challenges, and my defects of character. For that I certainly thank God, all the people who prayed for me and helped me in and out of the AA program.I hope that my usage of these medicines will not result in dependence, abuse or addiction. I'm try to keep honest with myself and others to prevent that from happening. I've received some (not perfect) relief from these meds but I am glad to report that I have not yet gone into a blackout, lost my car, woke up with a stranger - or found myself stumbling home bruised and broke, all of which were pretty frequent occurances with my old friend John Barleycorn. However if the drugs do become a problem at least I have the advantage of my experience in AA and I understand that there are other programmes ('Benzodiazepines Anonymous') which I could try.
So to you my friend I would say, don't drink, go to meetings, take what you like and leave the rest, it does get better - and the program works if you work it. There are a lot of creepy people in AA but that's true for life in general - stick around and I'm sure you'll find those who will help you, not 'judge' you. I wish you the best.
Cheers
Posted by erik98225 on November 18, 2006, at 13:10:41
In reply to Re: Benzos and AA (vent), posted by friendobillnbob on November 18, 2006, at 10:34:21
Using a prescribed med in the manner it's prescribed does not make you "unsober". As you said, the program is called ALCOHOLICS Anonymous. The members who are in there for other drug use have been using unprescribed drugs.
Benzos and SSRI's are not "addictive" medications in the true sense. Calling them addictive results from a distortion of the definition of addiction.
ABUSE = Using a drug in a manner other than directed.
ADDICTION = Comuplsively abusing a drug despite knowledge that the abuse is causing medical, legal, or relationship problems.
TOLERANCE = An expected outcome of long-term drug use, in which increasingly larger doses are needed to get the desired effect.
DEPENDENCE = An expected outcome of long-term drug use, in which the abrupt cessation of the drug will cause withdrawal symptoms.
Tolerance and dependence are not ADDICTION.
For example, a diabetic will need insulin and is dependent on it. Diabetics may need to increase their insulin doses over time. However, we don't say that a diabetic has become addicted.
A person who takes clonazepam or paroxetine or alprazolam is also dependent on the drug. If they stop suddenly, they are going to feel awful and perhaps experience serious problems. That is not addiction either.
It is possible to be addicted to benzos, but that is always characterized by abuse of it first. This would mean taking benzos in a situation where it wasn't prescribed, i.e. because it made you feel high (alprazolam) or you abused another drug and wanted to come down off it with benzos. This would be abuse, and wouldn't necessarily be addiction, but could become addiction rather quickly.
If you are taking your medication as prescribed, you are not "ADDICTED" to your medication and you do NOT need to change your AA birthday. I hope this clears things up.
Erik
Posted by Crazy Horse on November 18, 2006, at 14:28:14
In reply to Benzos and AA (vent) » Crazy Horse, posted by erik98225 on November 18, 2006, at 4:54:56
> > I just recently celebrated two years of alcohol sobriety. I have no cravings/urges to abuse Klonopin at all. Congrats on your decision to abstain from alcohol. Since i have stopped drinking my depression is definitely not as severe and for the past 3 mos. pretty much non-existent. :)
>
> I have 46 or 47 days of sobriety today (depending on your time zone!) and feel better than I have in years.
>
> According to AA and the treatment center, though, because I'm taking Klonopin I'm not sober.
>
> Idiots.You are correct..they are IDIOTS!! Give me a break! You are sober, and congratulations on your accomplishment! :)
-Monte
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 18, 2006, at 14:45:24
In reply to Benzos and AA (vent) » Crazy Horse, posted by erik98225 on November 18, 2006, at 4:54:56
> According to AA ... though, because I'm taking Klonopin I'm not sober.
>
> Idiots.I'm sorry you don't feel accepted by AA, but when you post here, please be sensitive to the feelings of others (such as AA members).
But please don't take this personally, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please first see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by christophrejmc on November 18, 2006, at 15:18:29
In reply to Re: 1.5mg clonazepam is more like ~15mg diazepam, FYI » christophrejmc, posted by erik98225 on November 18, 2006, at 4:51:56
> In my personal experience, 1.5 clonazepam = 3.0 alprazolam = 60 diazepam (I've taken all three). Your mileage may vary.
Wow, that seems high. I've also taken all three and 1.5mg of clonazepam is a high dose for me but nothing at all like 3mg of Xanax or 60mg of Valium. Of all the benzodiazepine equivalency charts I've seen, the highest dose of diazepam equivalent to 1.5 mg clonazepam is 30mg.
But I certainly know that everyone has different reactions to benzodiazepines--I can't take more than 1mg of alprazolam without passing out but I can take a huge amount of Ativan before feeling anything.
Posted by erik98225 on November 18, 2006, at 15:30:27
In reply to Re: please be sensitive » erik98225, posted by Dr. Bob on November 18, 2006, at 14:45:24
I apologize for being overcritical of AA. I will not call anyone an idiot in the future.
Erik
Posted by Phillipa on November 18, 2006, at 18:08:07
In reply to Re: 1.5mg clonazepam is more like ~15mg diazepam, FYI » christophrejmc, posted by erik98225 on November 18, 2006, at 4:51:56
It may feel that way but .5 of xanax is equal to lmg of ativan. lmg of klonopin is equal to 10mg of valium according to the charts and my doc. Love Phillipa
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 18, 2006, at 22:38:23
In reply to Re: please be sensitive » Dr. Bob, posted by erik98225 on November 18, 2006, at 15:30:27
Posted by erik98225 on November 19, 2006, at 0:21:13
In reply to Re: 1.5mg clonazepam is more like ~15mg diazepam, FYI » erik98225, posted by Phillipa on November 18, 2006, at 18:08:07
> It may feel that way but .5 of xanax is equal to lmg of ativan. lmg of klonopin is equal to 10mg of valium according to the charts and my doc.
Yeah, I was speaking in terms of effectiveness, not in terms of withdrawal substitution.
Posted by Phillipa on November 19, 2006, at 19:03:13
In reply to Re: 1.5mg clonazepam is more like ~15mg diazepam, FYI » Phillipa, posted by erik98225 on November 19, 2006, at 0:21:13
Eric there's a difference? I'm not that knowledgeable of the above. Love Phillipa
Posted by erik98225 on November 20, 2006, at 0:21:41
In reply to Re: 1.5mg clonazepam is more like ~15mg diazepam, FYI » erik98225, posted by Phillipa on November 19, 2006, at 19:03:13
> Eric there's a difference? I'm not that knowledgeable of the above. Love Phillipa
The various benzos exert their anticonvulsant and tranquilizing effects to different degrees. Although 1.5mg clonazepam may be equal to 1.5mg alprazolam for anticonvulsant (i.e. withdrawal) purposes, it takes about 3.0mg alprazolam to give me the same anxiolytic effect as 1.5mg clonazepam.
Same goes with the diazepam. 15mg may be sufficient to prevent a withdrawal off of 1.5mg clonazepam, but it would take about 60 for me to have the same effect I get from the 1.5 clonazepam.
Erik
Posted by Phillipa on November 20, 2006, at 19:01:41
In reply to Re: 1.5mg clonazepam is more like ~15mg diazepam, FYI, posted by erik98225 on November 20, 2006, at 0:21:41
Erik so if I in the past took 3mg of xanax and between .5 and lmg of klonopin and 15mg of chloral hydrate then the 20mg of valium I'm taking may be the reason I'm getting worse with anxiety that leads to depression as I can't function. No energy always tired and afraid of everything? Thanks Love Phillipa ps any suggestions as they will not give me higher doses of valium. ps my thyroid has gone hyper now from hypo to normal and they lowered my sythroid dose. I'm so unstable.
Posted by erik98225 on November 21, 2006, at 18:19:03
In reply to Re: 1.5mg clonazepam is more like ~15mg diazepam, FYI » erik98225, posted by Phillipa on November 20, 2006, at 19:01:41
> Erik so if I in the past took 3mg of xanax and between .5 and lmg of klonopin and 15mg of chloral hydrate then the 20mg of valium I'm taking may be the reason I'm getting worse with anxiety that leads to depression as I can't function. any suggestions as they will not give me higher doses of valium.
Ask them for Klonopin (most pdocs are much more willing to prescribe this, because of the undeserved stigma Valium gained in the 70s)... get the 1mg pills and try various doses up to the maximum daily dose of 4mg.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.