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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 3 to 27 of 27. Go back in thread:
Posted by ronaldo on October 27, 2006, at 12:17:04
In reply to Im scared of benzo drugs, posted by kiwiredbeach on October 27, 2006, at 9:04:10
> My pdoc has given me klonopin to help with chronic day to day anxiety, I seem to feel anxiety all day with a twisted gut and fist in my chest. Im starting to take paroxotine to help my gad which has worked before. However ive never resorted to benzo before, hes given me 30 days worth but im scared as hell im come addicted physically in this short period. So im thinking just two weeks worth. Should this be ok I dont want to downregulate my gaba receptors thats the last thing i need in the long term
>
> cheers redbeachHi redbeach,
Could it just be possible that your anxiety over this new benzo is just part of your gad? Your doctor should know whether it is safe to take this level of dosage for 30 days. If he's not bothered should you be? If you don't take it for the full 30 days you may not get the full benefit.
I can't comment on your gaba receptors because I don't know what they are exactly. Have you got the time and the inclination to enlighten me?In any case Klonopin is also a benzodiazepine. How long have you been taking that? Do you feel yourself addicted to it?
My (uneducated) advice to you is to take the paroxotine for the full 30 days and see what happens. You might be so happy with the result that the danger of addiction will revert to its rightful position (in the background).
My own view is that the threat of benzo addiction is over-stated.
...ronaldo
Posted by Glydin on October 27, 2006, at 12:49:10
In reply to Im scared of benzo drugs, posted by kiwiredbeach on October 27, 2006, at 9:04:10
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20041217/msgs/432304.html
I posted it 2 yearsish ago and I still believe it. I was on Klonopin monotherapy for three years without pitfalls. One must be careful but benzo's can be a great standard therapy for anxiety and their use doesn't always spell a future problem.
Hope you work it out,
Glydin
Posted by Vale on October 27, 2006, at 14:38:37
In reply to Im scared of benzo drugs, posted by kiwiredbeach on October 27, 2006, at 9:04:10
Hi,
You are right to be wary of benzodiazepines, they are really nasty little meds. Maybe o.k. once in a while to have on hand as a last resort. But hey, 30 continuous days worth, just try stopping them cold turkey after 30 days and your anxiety will go sky high. not to mention the insomnia, derealisation,palpitations ,muscle cramps, and possibly even mild psychotic symptoms. Some of these symptoms drag on and on for weeks.Why don't you ask your doc, for something like
Hydroxyzine ( an antihistamine) No abuse liability, dependence or withdrawal.Also Serviers Tianeptine is anxiolytic, with minimal withdrawal symptoms. Servier should also soon be marketing a novel melatonergic agonist usefull for anxious depressive states with insomnia, with little or no dependence/withdrawal
( so they say)I expect my comments here to atract some flak. but really benzos are not the solution for a generalised anxiety disorder, they just make it worse.
Be well.
Posted by Glydin on October 27, 2006, at 14:46:21
In reply to Re: Im scared of benzo drugs, posted by Vale on October 27, 2006, at 14:38:37
> I expect my comments here to atract some flak. but really benzos are not the solution for a generalised anxiety disorder, they just make it worse.
>~~~ I do wish you would not generalize. You are entitled to your opinions and voicing your experiences but your findings may not be others.
Posted by Vale on October 27, 2006, at 14:53:08
In reply to Re: Im scared of benzo drugs » Vale, posted by Glydin on October 27, 2006, at 14:46:21
I agree, I'm simply voicing my own opion here ( albeit one shared by millions of ex benzo users)
Posted by kiwiredbeach on October 27, 2006, at 15:34:34
In reply to Re: Im scared of benzo drugs, posted by Vale on October 27, 2006, at 14:53:08
Thanks for the replies, however im only thinking taking 10 days worth, that should be safe i would imagine
Posted by ronaldo on October 27, 2006, at 16:19:06
In reply to Re: Im scared of benzo drugs, posted by kiwiredbeach on October 27, 2006, at 15:34:34
> Thanks for the replies, however im only thinking taking 10 days worth, that should be safe i would imagine
It's your call kiwi but I still think it might be your GAD which is making you hyper-cautious. Go on live dangerously and take the full 30 days. Your doc will be able to ascertain more finely just what your condition is. Crumbs your doc wouldn't have prescribed it if the thing was dangerous. He has a reputation to think of...
Come day 10 and it might be making you feel better than you have felt for a long time. You won't want to pack it in if that happens. Benzo-addiction is over exaggerated.
Posted by notfred on October 27, 2006, at 17:35:27
In reply to Re: Im scared of benzo drugs » Vale, posted by Glydin on October 27, 2006, at 14:46:21
> ~~~ I do wish you would not generalize. You are entitled to your opinions and voicing your experiences but your findings may not be others.
Yep. I have been on benzos for over 20 yrs. Sometimes I take them every day but most times not.They work as well today as they did 20 yrs ago, without having to raise the dose.
Posted by Phillipa on October 27, 2006, at 20:46:12
In reply to Re: Im scared of benzo drugs, posted by notfred on October 27, 2006, at 17:35:27
Same here but it's over 30 years for me and many pdocs who all agree that I must continue them. It's genetic my whole family has been and is on one or the other of them. Don't fear them they are safe safer in my opinion that a lot of ad's that cause worse withdrawal effects. Love Phillipa a user by prescription of benzos.
Posted by sregan on October 27, 2006, at 22:20:02
In reply to Im scared of benzo drugs, posted by kiwiredbeach on October 27, 2006, at 9:04:10
> but im scared as hell im come addicted physically in this short period.
There is such a knee jerk reaction to that. You mention benzo and you get "they're addictive." If I feel like crap and this pill makes me feel normal again then yes it's addictive.
People with Chronic Fatigue are prescribed Klonopin to protect their brain from Glutimate toxicity. By increasing GABA effectiveness you downregulate Glutimate. The trick is to take no more than you need to feel normal. There will come a time when you want to stop. The higher up the ladder you go the further you have to come down.
Benzo's are also reported to decrease stage 4 sleep. Somthing to consider.
Posted by clint878 on October 28, 2006, at 11:25:42
In reply to Re: Im scared of benzo drugs, posted by notfred on October 27, 2006, at 17:35:27
My father has taken diazepam every evening when he goes to sleep since 1976. He hasn't had any withdrawal problems or tolerance, still taking the same 5-10mg a night. It's not tolerance I would be worried about.
On the other hand, he doesn't seem as sharp as he used to be. He seems like he has trouble understanding some things. It's not outright dementia, but benzodiazepines in the long-term have been shown to cause cognitive dysfunction. In his case, it may not be the diazepam causing the problem, because he was never as intelligent as his sisters in the first place.
Still, that's something to keep in mind.
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 28, 2006, at 12:48:37
In reply to Re: Im scared of benzo drugs, posted by Vale on October 27, 2006, at 14:53:08
> I'm simply voicing [an] opion ... shared by millions of ex benzo users
It's fine to voice your opinion, but please don't exaggerate or overgeneralize.
But please don't take this personally, either, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please first see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 28, 2006, at 13:18:31
In reply to Im scared of benzo drugs, posted by kiwiredbeach on October 27, 2006, at 9:04:10
Friends,
It is written here,[...klonopin..scared as...come addicted..should this be OK...].
There is a continual unfolding body of evidence concerning the effects of benzodiazapines such as klonopin,AKA clonazapam. This evidence is available from many sources, including the U.S. government and those that have had BZDs prescribed to them.
The research evidence centers around;
A. Are BZds addictive and if so, in how long.
B. Do they cause harm.
C. Should they be given for anxiety.
D. Is it exaggerating to say that discontinuing from them could have the potential to cause a severe withdrawal syndrome including possible siezures.
E. Does taking them shorten a person's life-span
F. Does taking them have permanent consequences
If you would like to discuss those and other aspects of the effects of BZDs and their history, you could email me if you like.
Lou
lpilder_1188@fuse.net
Posted by Racer on October 28, 2006, at 14:34:00
In reply to Im scared of benzo drugs, posted by kiwiredbeach on October 27, 2006, at 9:04:10
I just saw a new pdoc and got a shiny new dx and a new drug to try. I've got a history of problems with medications, and am frozen in fear of pdocs after some bad experiences, and spent a week in a perpetual motion machine of anxiety over the thought of starting another SSRI. In other words, I have a great deal of empathy for you in your current situation.
That said, I've taken benzos for sleep a few times, and taken them daily for sleep for more than 30 days at a time. After nearly six months taken up to 4mg of Xanax to sleep, I had some withdrawal issues. After six weeks of taking 1mg of Xanax every single night, I had a night of moderate insomnia. (Even that one night was partly situational, by the way. The same events that led to the insomnia the Xanax was supposed to help with, also led to at least half of that one night of moderate insomnia.) There were no other after effects to stopping it.
I hope that my experience helps reduce your concern. I also hope the paroxetine helps with your GAD.
Good luck.
Posted by Lindenblüte on October 28, 2006, at 16:09:52
In reply to Re: Im scared of benzo drugs » kiwiredbeach, posted by Racer on October 28, 2006, at 14:34:00
My pdoc gave me a script for 60 pills of klonopin about a month ago.
I was going through a lot of really really bad anxiety. I had just switched therapists, etc etc,
I took two .5 pills one in the morning, one in the evening for about a week, and in this time had much better anxiety. Wasn't freaking out about stuff as much.
Then I was worried about dependency, so I went to .5 mg only in the am.
Then I was still worried about dependency so, I stopped using it, except when I get that horrible tight feeling in my chest. (you know the one?)
Then I might take a pill, or bite one in half. They don't taste bad. I have even chewed one up in my mouth once. (I was on a field trip to Manhattan, and the crowds and such were totally stressing me out, and I was convinced that we were going to be robbed and/or assaulted... didn't feel safe for a second.)
I never felt that good when I took klonopin. It just made me feel a little calmer. Somewhat sluggish, helped me relax my tense muscles. It has a fairly long half-life, and doesn't act instantly. Even when I chewed it up, I didn't get a "rush".
Talk to your pdoc about your worries of dependency. I consider dependency a different issue than "abuse". I'm dependent on a lot of things. my husband. water. fresh air. cognitive stimulation. anti-depressants. coffee. tea. food. etc.
I hope you feel better soon, either when your paroxetine kicks in, or perhaps sooner, should you decide to give a benzodiazepine a try.
-Li
Posted by Gabbi~G on October 28, 2006, at 18:45:00
In reply to Re: Im scared of benzo drugs » kiwiredbeach, posted by Racer on October 28, 2006, at 14:34:00
I think it's wise of a Pdoc to begin any anti-depressant along with benzo's as initially, even Paxil can cause an increase in anxiety, once they begin to work, the theory is that you will no longer need the benzos.
For me, that's exactly how it worked, and I was prescribed ativan, which has lately been considered the demon drug I'm sure in a few years it will be something else. I honestly had no problem going off of it, 6mgs a day! once the prozac started to work
I think the third time (different SSRI treatment resistant) I had an awful time quitting the ativan, but I can't say my experience with effexor, or seroquel was much different.
If clonazepam worked for me I'd have no problem staying on it long term. I think the shorter acting benzos are more likely to have a jagged/rebound effect, and my opinion of them used long term varies daily. :{
I quit Clonazepam cold turkey (not recommended!!!! )
However despite the fact that I was an idiot about it, I had about a week of insomnia, and that was it. I'd worry (personally) the least about that one.I think it's important to remember, that it's depression and anxiety that ruin lives. We are all remarkably different, and to demonize one medication for everyone, I think is irresponsible, as it may be a life saver for another.
Posted by wbill5 on October 28, 2006, at 19:04:25
In reply to Re: Im scared of benzo drugs, posted by Lindenblüte on October 28, 2006, at 16:09:52
Ive been on ativan for 7 years. It works very well for my anxiety. I stopped taking it once and I felt like I had a hangover for several days, so I started taking it again. My pdoc is close to retirement and Im afraid I will not be able to find a pdoc to prescribe it on a permanent basis. That is my only fear.Otherwise it works well for me.
Bill
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 28, 2006, at 20:58:55
In reply to Re: Im scared of benzo drugs » kiwiredbeach, posted by ronaldo on October 27, 2006, at 16:19:06
Friends,
It is written here,[...take the full 30 days...doc wouldn't have prescribed it if ..was dangerous...Benzo addiction is over exaggerated...].
This brings up several questions:
A. Are all drugs not dangerous because doctors prescribe them?
B. Do all doctors prescribe BZDs?
C. Should addiction to BZDs be discounted?
D. Are the accounts of the withdrawal symptoms of people that say that they were addicted to BZDs over exaggerated?
E. What is the safe amount of days that a BZD can be taken?
Lou
Posted by Racer on October 28, 2006, at 21:58:15
In reply to Lou's response to aspects of ronaldo's post, posted by Lou Pilder on October 28, 2006, at 20:58:55
>
> It is written here,[...take the full 30 days...doc wouldn't have prescribed it if ..was dangerous...Benzo addiction is over exaggerated...].
> This brings up several questions:
> A. Are all drugs not dangerous because doctors prescribe them?I saw this question as ambiguous. It almost sounds as though you're suggesting that it's the act of doctors prescribing them that makes all drugs dangerous. I doubt that is what you intended this question to mean.
> B. Do all doctors prescribe BZDs?
I'm not sure my podiatrist would... I wonder what your point is in asking that question?
> C. Should addiction to BZDs be discounted?
Again, I found this question ambiguous. The immediate reading, which again I doubt is what you had in mind, is whether or not "addiction to BZDs" should be put on sale, marked down, sold at a discount. I realize you probably intend a very different meaning.
> D. Are the accounts of the withdrawal symptoms of people that say that they were addicted to BZDs over exaggerated?
I thought this sentence was just a bit too long for me to read easily. I think I would have found it more readable if it had been broken up, with punctuation, into shorter clauses. I admit, though, that that is my own preference. I just think it would flow better if it were constructed differently.
> E. What is the safe amount of days that a BZD can be taken?
Again, I admit that this sentence is OK. I would probably have written it a bit differently, myself, for more precision, but there's nothing structurally wrong with it.
Lou, I have trouble reading your posts at times, because I have trouble finding the sense in many of your sentences. Back in the dark ages, when I majored in English Lit, we had to do an awful lot of writing. I'm not as good at it now as I was when I practiced, but there's still an amateur grammarian inside me. I'm certain I'm not the only one whose Inner Grammarian suggests that a more clearly and concisely written post might produce a more positive response.
I sincerely hope my feedback has been helpful to you.
Posted by yxibow on October 28, 2006, at 22:08:24
In reply to Lou's response to aspects of ronaldo's post, posted by Lou Pilder on October 28, 2006, at 20:58:55
> Friends,
> It is written here,[...take the full 30 days...doc wouldn't have prescribed it if ..was dangerous...Benzo addiction is over exaggerated...].
> This brings up several questions:
> A. Are all drugs not dangerous because doctors prescribe them?
> B. Do all doctors prescribe BZDs?
> C. Should addiction to BZDs be discounted?
> D. Are the accounts of the withdrawal symptoms of people that say that they were addicted to BZDs over exaggerated?
> E. What is the safe amount of days that a BZD can be taken?
> Lou
A. No. Chemotherapy medication is quite dangerous. Does that mean that one still wants to stick around in this world to see their extended family for as long as possible even if it hurts their bodily organs ? Everything has or should have an informed consent and there are always tradeoffs.
B. No. Some have been or even espouse the concept of addiction, which has been discussed here since the cows come home (we have, I still hear the moo-ing... [humour]). Its really habituation, which is escalation of dose, even under the care of a doctor because original dose A doesnt work as well any more.Addiction as a medical term, which is not semantics purely, is the use of medications not prescribed by a doctor or taking medications indiscriminately at a dose not authorized by a doctor, and some people are more genetically susceptible (e.g. alcoholism.)
C. No. You can have addiction and habituation at the same time. However this is not as common as habituation to benzodiazepines.
D. This is an individual variable. In part, I believe yes. This is with a disclaimer that I have some wierd back/head spasm occasionally from cold turkey discontinuation of Tranxene and mismanagement by medical professionals to give me the whole dose back, nine years later.But in general the idea that one is habituated to a benzodiazepine for as long as one has taken it (if you take X benzodiazepine for 5 years, you must be off of it for 5 years is in my belief not a medically valid proof concept.)
E. Depends on what doctor you ask and what country you're in. England seems to be especially benzophobic. Some doctors in the US will say until dose escalation or habituation occurs, while others will say only a certain number of days or weeks. This is also true for pseudobenzodiazepines such as Lunesta, zopiclone, Ambien, etc. They can be taken longterm though your GP may follow rigidly the 7 day rule on them.
There are people on Librium (chlordiazepoxide) since it came out in 1960, and Valium (diazepam), respectively in 1963, without any sequelae. Benzodiazepines are safe replacements for barbiturates which have a near 50 year in the lab history.
In general, for long term use, long half life is a fair correlation -- e.g. Klonopin, Valium, Librium, and least immediate gratification, which typically occurs with short half lives (Xanax, a particular culprit, and Ativan.)
Posted by zazenducky on October 29, 2006, at 12:06:50
In reply to Racer's response to aspects of Lou's post, posted by Racer on October 28, 2006, at 21:58:15
Racer I think it might be more supportive if you applied your effort to understanding and responding to Lou's post rather than criticizing his grammar :)
Hope that helps:)
yep im punctuating with smilies tell your inner grammarian to close her eyes :)
Posted by theo on October 29, 2006, at 16:18:13
In reply to Im scared of benzo drugs, posted by kiwiredbeach on October 27, 2006, at 9:04:10
What dose of Paxil do you take? Do you take it morning or evening?
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 30, 2006, at 8:45:52
In reply to Re: Racer » Racer, posted by zazenducky on October 29, 2006, at 12:06:50
Friends,
It is written here,[...understanding...Lou's...]
Lou's third smiley>>:-)
There are many developing issues in relation to the prescribing of benzodiazepines that may be unbeknowing to some because of their new discoveries in relation to the addiction potential and the possibility of permanent neurological damage that could result in the use beyond what is said to be the safe amount of days of use of BZDs. I would like to email about this.
Lou
lpilder_1188@fuse.net
Posted by kiwiredbeach on October 30, 2006, at 14:27:55
In reply to Re: Im scared of benzo drugs » kiwiredbeach, posted by theo on October 29, 2006, at 16:18:13
Im taking 20mg in the morning, this is the second time ive taken paxil it worked last time....I hope it works again
Kiwi
Posted by sregan on October 30, 2006, at 16:21:32
In reply to Re: Im scared of benzo drugs » kiwiredbeach, posted by Racer on October 28, 2006, at 14:34:00
> That said, I've taken benzos for sleep a few times, and taken them daily for sleep for more than 30 days at a time. After nearly six months taken up to 4mg of Xanax to sleep, I had some withdrawal issues. After six weeks of taking 1mg of Xanax every single night, I had a night of moderate insomnia. (Even that one night was partly situational, by the way. The same events that led to the insomnia the Xanax was supposed to help with, also led to at least half of that one night of moderate insomnia.) There were no other after effects to stopping it.
I've found Klonopin to be much better for sleep because it lasts longer. With Xanax I think you get the benefit for 4-8 hours but if you don't keep taking it regularly you experience withdrawl. So evry day you can see benefit-withdrawl.
I've weened myself off Klonopin after a year stepping down doseage slightly every few days. On that step down night I wake around 3 or so and don't sleep as good. The next night is better at the same dose and better, etc.
So I find the only thing keeping me on the Klonopin was the Klonopin. I can sleep without it just fine after stepping down slowly. Whever I tried to just not take it I had a horrible night and assumed I needed it.
Shawn
This is the end of the thread.
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