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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by wishingstar on September 13, 2006, at 18:40:20
I'm sure most of you have heard of the connection between the SSRIs and suicidal feelings, esp in kids it seems.
My question is just what kind of effect this usually is. I always pictured it as developing over the first week or so of taking the med...
Can it be immediate? I just started celexa this evening and have not felt this terrible in a long time. I can barely move. Even to get myself into bed.
I'm also in sort of a bad place overall so may be unrelated. But could it be related?
ps - if any of you were waiting to hear what happened with the pdoc today or in the day program ill post about it later tonight or tomorrow on psych. just too hard right now.
Posted by linkadge on September 13, 2006, at 18:57:45
In reply to ssris and suicide, posted by wishingstar on September 13, 2006, at 18:40:20
I interprated SSRI induced increase in suicidal feelings as some of the following:
Destinct increased feelings in needing to excape or get out. Increase in feelings of being overwhelmed. Decrease in feeling comfortable in my own body. Dysphoria. Increase in feelings of worthlessness. The list goes on.
I had never been so close as to attempt, as when doctors put me on high doses of SSRI's. Listen to your body.
There is something to be said for waiting a little while to see if improvement occurs, though I could personally never recomend it. To tell somebody to 'wait out' feeling the way I felt would not be right on my behalf.
Linkadge
Posted by wishingstar on September 13, 2006, at 19:32:23
In reply to Re: ssris and suicide, posted by linkadge on September 13, 2006, at 18:57:45
Yes.. they can be dangerous. I've been on prozac and zoloft and they didnt help but didnt make me feel worse either. Now I feel terrible. Seems odd that it'd act in that way this quickly though.
I will wait it out for a week or so for sure, unless it gets obviously worse. Mostly because I'm low on other options. I'm currently in a partial hospitalization program and have tried lots of meds with no success.. so I'm going to try. But this just feels bad. But being in the program now, the bad feelings could be related to that. Things that is bringing up.
I will watch myself carefully. And of course theyre watching me at partial so if it should get out of hand at least im safe. Thanks for your help.
Posted by finelinebob on September 13, 2006, at 20:23:10
In reply to Re: ssris and suicide » linkadge, posted by wishingstar on September 13, 2006, at 19:32:23
The is also the notion that if the meds work, and if you were in such a state that you didn't have the energy or "will" to try, that improving your condition may take you to the point where you have that energy.
take care
flb
Posted by Phillipa on September 13, 2006, at 22:17:43
In reply to Re: ssris and suicide, posted by finelinebob on September 13, 2006, at 20:23:10
Yup when the meds begin to work and you have energy that's when it seems to happen I've been told. Love Phillipa
Posted by TJO on September 14, 2006, at 5:48:28
In reply to ssris and suicide, posted by wishingstar on September 13, 2006, at 18:40:20
Hiya,
I took Paxil and felt suicidal after about a week and after 2 weeks checkied into the local hospital. Not a good drug for me. The hospital put me on Wellbutrin instead :-).Tammy
Posted by linkadge on September 14, 2006, at 8:16:10
In reply to Re: ssris and suicide, posted by TJO on September 14, 2006, at 5:48:28
Yeah, theres that theory that the drugs itself doesn't make you suicidal but that it gives you the energy to carry out your plans.
This doesn't make a whole lot of sence to me, and is in my opinion an attempt for the drug companies to again, put the blame back on the patient.
I say this becase, while I was depressed, I was never suicidal, thought never crossed my mind. Going on certain SSRI's lead to feelings of suicidiality (desparately searching my house for my dads gun etc)
In addition, there have been a few studies where healthy vaulenteers were given SSRI's and who reported feelings of being suicidal. Those studies are very controversial, of course.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on September 14, 2006, at 8:20:39
In reply to Re: ssris and suicide, posted by TJO on September 14, 2006, at 5:48:28
I have a few friends too who said the same thing. Ie, that certain antidepressants induced suicidiality where no thoughts plans had previously existed.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on September 14, 2006, at 8:27:55
In reply to Re: ssris and suicide, posted by linkadge on September 14, 2006, at 8:16:10
> Yeah, theres that theory that the drugs itself doesn't make you suicidal but that it gives you the energy to carry out your plans.
> In addition, there have been a few studies where healthy vaulenteers were given SSRI's and who reported feelings of being suicidal. Those studies are very controversial, of course.
I think both scenarios occur.
> and is in my opinion an attempt for the drug companies to again, put the blame back on the patient.
Are we in a cynical mood today?
:-)
- Scott
Posted by Gee on September 14, 2006, at 11:37:15
In reply to Re: ssris and suicide » linkadge, posted by SLS on September 14, 2006, at 8:27:55
I found that SSRI's made me really suicidal, but after awhile the suicidalness and all that went away. Maybe I should have said something, but I just waited it out
Posted by SLS on September 14, 2006, at 12:12:51
In reply to Re: ssris and suicide, posted by Gee on September 14, 2006, at 11:37:15
> I found that SSRI's made me really suicidal, but after awhile the suicidalness and all that went away. Maybe I should have said something, but I just waited it out
How are you doing now?
Are you still taking that same medication?
- Scott
Posted by Gee on September 14, 2006, at 18:23:47
In reply to Re: ssris and suicide » Gee, posted by SLS on September 14, 2006, at 12:12:51
I'm still taking the same medication because I'm afraid that if I go off it I will get a whole lot worse. At least here the depression isn't horrible, and it doesn't last forever. There's thought now that my diagnosis is wrong, and that it's not depression at all, but ADD. So I don't know. I might try other meds, or ...?
Posted by Racer on September 15, 2006, at 17:49:27
In reply to Re: ssris and suicide, posted by linkadge on September 14, 2006, at 8:16:10
> Yeah, theres that theory that the drugs itself doesn't make you suicidal but that it gives you the energy to carry out your plans.
>
> This doesn't make a whole lot of sence to me, and is in my opinion an attempt for the drug companies to again, put the blame back on the patient.Well... I don't actually think it's as simple as that, but I do think that's a big part of it.
My last trial of an SSRI was MISERABLE -- after three days, my husband took them away, because I was so much worse, and I let him. He was afraid -- rightly so, I think -- that the problems I was having on them might lead me to attempt or succeed at suicide. I was so agitated, so unable to stay in my own skin, so completely irrational by that third day -- crying and just begging for relief -- that I think I probably was in danger of trying again. I'd be afraid that one more day of feeling that way -- especially since I was feeling worse every day -- and I wouldn't care about the pain involved anymore.
So, if you want to think of that agitation as coming from increased energy, that would support that theory. I tend to say that SSRIs bring out suicidal ideation, but I'm not sure they create them out of whole cloth.
Then again, I'd already gone through a period of intense suicidality before ever trying SSRIs, so I've never tried an SSRI as someone with no history of making that leap. I had already thought that I could do it, which is a hard place to get back from.
Posted by linkadge on September 15, 2006, at 21:53:44
In reply to Re: ssris and suicide » linkadge, posted by Racer on September 15, 2006, at 17:49:27
I'm of the contention that anyone can feel sucidial under the right (wrong) circumstances. Suicidal has a lot to do with brain chemistry. Sometimes drugs can change brain chemistry for the worse.
Perhaps they don't induce such feelings in anyone, but akathesia is a horrable feeling. It instills a sence of urgency to everything. Its hard to relax your body. Its hard to feel comfortable just sitting. Its hard to get deep restoritive sleep. It feels like something is pushing you to know, or do.
My friend once took an SSRI' and said he'd never do it again. He said that the extreme sence of inner turmoil that the drug induced was very much like a bad experience he had on LSD.
Some people, seem very sensitive to these types of effects.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on September 15, 2006, at 22:42:55
In reply to Re: ssris and suicide, posted by linkadge on September 15, 2006, at 21:53:44
Oh I am which is why I've quit all the SSRI's and SSNRI's. My choice is to only take a benzo. The way I started. Love Phillipa
Posted by TJO on September 16, 2006, at 6:21:03
In reply to Re: ssris and suicide » linkadge, posted by Racer on September 15, 2006, at 17:49:27
> > Yeah, theres that theory that the drugs itself doesn't make you suicidal but that it gives you the energy to carry out your plans.
> >
> > This doesn't make a whole lot of sence to me, and is in my opinion an attempt for the drug companies to again, put the blame back on the patient.
>
> >
> Hi all,
To add my 2 cents, my bad experience with Paxil, was mostly intrusive thoughts of suicide occurring at wierd times-during a church sermon, brushing teeth, etc. It then progressed to intrusive thoughts of doing bad things to my beloved pet cat and mom, and thats when I decided it was time for the hospital. It was definitely not that it gave me any energy to carry the plans out, it caused more exhaustion than usual. The intrusive thoughts were very scary.Tammy
Posted by SLS on September 16, 2006, at 8:11:05
In reply to Re: ssris and suicide, posted by TJO on September 16, 2006, at 6:21:03
> > > Yeah, theres that theory that the drugs itself doesn't make you suicidal but that it gives you the energy to carry out your plans.
> > >
> > > This doesn't make a whole lot of sence to me, and is in my opinion an attempt for the drug companies to again, put the blame back on the patient.
> >
> > >
> > Hi all,
> To add my 2 cents, my bad experience with Paxil, was mostly intrusive thoughts of suicide occurring at wierd times-during a church sermon, brushing teeth, etc. It then progressed to intrusive thoughts of doing bad things to my beloved pet cat and mom, and thats when I decided it was time for the hospital. It was definitely not that it gave me any energy to carry the plans out, it caused more exhaustion than usual. The intrusive thoughts were very scary.Yes. There is definitely a neurobiology to suicidality and homocidality. J.J. Mann has done quite a bit of work on this in the past. I don't know who has picked up on his work into the present. It makes sense that if manipulating the brain can cause someone to become less suicidal, that it can also be manipulated to cause someone to become more suicidal. Given that the brain is so complex, and that we don't really know what we are doing with these drugs - we are virtually blind - and that there is so much interindividual variability, we must recognize the possibility that we are going to see an array of responses to any given drug across the population - including those that are the opposite to the norm.
- Scott
Posted by TJO on September 16, 2006, at 12:23:38
In reply to Re: ssris and suicide, posted by SLS on September 16, 2006, at 8:11:05
Hi,
Maybe someone should catalog the responses, both negative and positive, so that doctors could use case histories of similiar symptoms to predict drug responses. We have a national library and an Internet, why not have a "National Medical Registry" available online. Of course the patients names should be kept confidential.Tammy
Posted by linkadge on September 16, 2006, at 13:42:04
In reply to Re: ssris and suicide, posted by TJO on September 16, 2006, at 12:23:38
Another possability is that the rate of such suciaility induction is underreported. Think of all the people who have taken SSRI's that may have felt worse, but just assumed it was their illness taking a turn for the worse?
Its just like sexual side effects. There may have been a time when such effects were dismissed, in which case the poor patient would end up blaming themselves for such problems.
When the issue has been brought to the forefront, a lot more people who have had such side effects can relate. Afterall, the last thing you would blame on your suicidality is your antidepressant.
Linkadge
Posted by johnnyj on September 16, 2006, at 20:45:03
In reply to Re: ssris and suicide, posted by linkadge on September 16, 2006, at 13:42:04
I am going to be needing an ssri and you guys have me scared to death. What the hell am I to do? I have obessive thoughts and now I am afraid they will get worse.
johnnyj
Posted by SLS on September 16, 2006, at 21:48:30
In reply to Re: ssris and suicide, posted by TJO on September 16, 2006, at 12:23:38
> Hi,
> Maybe someone should catalog the responses, both negative and positive, so that doctors could use case histories of similiar symptoms to predict drug responses. We have a national library and an Internet, why not have a "National Medical Registry" available online. Of course the patients names should be kept confidential.That's a great idea, and it's mine!
You'll find it in the archives on this site and on various newsgroups like alt.support.depression.
Good thinking!
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on September 16, 2006, at 22:14:56
In reply to Re: ssris and suicide » linkadge, posted by johnnyj on September 16, 2006, at 20:45:03
Johnny I've heard this is not a good place to be when starting a drug. And the board deals with most tx resistant people. Love Phillipa
Posted by TJO on September 16, 2006, at 22:37:51
In reply to Re: ssris and suicide » TJO, posted by SLS on September 16, 2006, at 21:48:30
You know what they say, great minds think alike....
Posted by James K on September 17, 2006, at 1:01:46
In reply to Re: ssris and suicide, posted by TJO on September 16, 2006, at 22:37:51
I remember that I was suicidal at a young age. I can't blame the meds for the attempts. I hate ssri's and I wish I'd never taken one. I'm still alive, and I never know how that will turn out. I can't ignore the result of alchohol abuse. Live, die. i hate the damn meds. tomorrow's another day.
Posted by Carper on September 18, 2006, at 13:42:55
In reply to Re: ssris and suicide » linkadge, posted by johnnyj on September 16, 2006, at 20:45:03
> I am going to be needing an ssri and you guys have me scared to death. What the hell am I to do? I have obessive thoughts and now I am afraid they will get worse.
>
> johnnyjHi Johnny,
I had a couple of days early on when taking celexa when I felt a horrible combination of being agitated, anxious and (even more) depressed. I'm sure it was caused by the medication. Luckily this feeling was transient and the antidepressant effect kicked in after 12-14 days.
I think the answer is to build up the dose gradually to the prescribed level.I did this when starting a second period on the drug and didn't have this bad side effect.
Best wishes,
Carper
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