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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 5 to 29 of 29. Go back in thread:
Posted by finelinebob on August 21, 2006, at 21:07:01
In reply to Re: Is Depression a choice?, posted by ciaolavida on August 21, 2006, at 20:37:49
> No, it's not.
But staying depressed is.
Sure, there are some environmentally "caused" -- death of a loved one, for example. And you can compound that by not seeking counseling, but self-medicating, any number of which are going to send you into a downward spiral.
That's a choice.
For those of us who have it in our genes, we have no choice other than to constantly manage it. There is no "snapping out of it". There is no "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps."
At 72nd and Broadway here in NYC, there is a sign painted on the side of a building that must be 10 stories tall. Yellow backgound, black text. It's been there forever, as far as I know, and "forever" for me as a New Yorker goes back 10 years. It reads:
Depression is a flaw in chemistry, not in character.
You chan choose your chemistry. Certain choices (alcohol for one) are going to make you worse off in the long run. Others meant to help may have no effect or a negative outcome -- that means they aren't what you need.
You can give up on meds and you can give up on therapy, and that's a choice. A choice to BE depressed. Nope. Already there. A choice to STAY depressed? Well, you can't wish it away, so yes.
Posted by ciaolavida on August 21, 2006, at 21:44:00
In reply to Re: Is Depression a choice?, posted by finelinebob on August 21, 2006, at 21:07:01
If meds or therapy don't work, and it's genetic, then technically depression can still be a choice.
Posted by Phillipa on August 21, 2006, at 21:52:36
In reply to Re: Is Depression a choice? » finelinebob, posted by ciaolavida on August 21, 2006, at 21:44:00
I think if it's genetic no you don't have a choice but you do everything you can to fight it. Eat right, meds, theraphy,excercise. Love Phillipa
Posted by gardenergirl on August 21, 2006, at 22:25:47
In reply to Re: Is Depression a choice?, posted by finelinebob on August 21, 2006, at 21:07:01
>
>
> At 72nd and Broadway here in NYC, there is a sign painted on the side of a building that must be 10 stories tall. Yellow backgound, black text. It's been there forever, as far as I know, and "forever" for me as a New Yorker goes back 10 years. It reads:
>
> Depression is a flaw in chemistry, not in character.
>That's awesome!
gg
Posted by llrrrpp on August 21, 2006, at 22:41:07
In reply to Re: Is Depression a choice? » finelinebob, posted by gardenergirl on August 21, 2006, at 22:25:47
I think that as I do more therapy and get my brain chemistry tinkered with, I am increasingly viewing depression as a choice. I may be unique, and don't want to generalize this to others, but my T agreed with me. For every stressful situation, there are many possible reactions and interpretations. Some of the ways we interpret stressful situations may lead us to a dark place, and some may be more benign. For instance, if I go to a bar, and nobody talks to me, and some jerk spills his beer on me, I could get angry and pissed and tell him FU to his face, or I might think that I am a totally worthless loser, and this state would naturally bring to mind many other memories of when I have been a loser in other situations. Then I would dwell on the bad times, and think that the bad stuff that happens to me is my fault, rather than view the beer spillage as an unfortunate accident, or the work of a stupid jerk.
Once I got to a very bad place, though, and I could not will myself out of it. I would try to write in my journal, and would write a bunch of crazy sh*t that made me even more depressed. I took vitamins, and tried to give myself a schedule, and read too many books and stuff. I ended up becoming obsessed with my own (growing) depression.
The best choice that we can make to get out of depression is to get a team of professionals to help us. Therapists can help us recognize that the crappy things that happen in life are not our fault. Pdocs can help tinker with our hormones and neurotransmitters, and perhaps even with the structure of the brain regions responsible for thinking bad thoughts and feeling lousy. Other people who care can be there for us, and remind us to eat our ice cream, and encourage us to take a day off of work when we look crazed. And getting these people involved in your depression is your CHOICE.
-ll
Posted by finelinebob on August 21, 2006, at 23:28:20
In reply to Re: Is Depression a choice? » finelinebob, posted by ciaolavida on August 21, 2006, at 21:44:00
> If meds or therapy don't work, and it's genetic, then technically depression can still be a choice.
If it's in your genes, often the issue has been decided for you. There's no "techincally" or "choice" about it. You have it.
If your genes say you're going to have blue eyes, you have no choice. You'll have blue eyes. BUT, you can buy some of the contacts that change your eye color. Whether you "stay" blue-eyed is a choice.
If your genes say you have a high potential for developing diabetes, then to avoid developing diabetes you'll have to make some fairly strict dietary and exercise rules and keep them up all your life.
Some of your genetic make-up you cannot avoid. Other aspects, if you know about them, you can manage them and even avoid them.
So yeah, biologically-based depression may be a choice. The day medical science figures out some sort of DNA test that indicates exactly how your brain chemisty is going to vary from the norm AND pharmaceutical companies develop medications that address those chemical imbalances and do nothing more, nothing less ...
... only then will biologically-based depression be a choice.
Posted by jedi on August 22, 2006, at 1:49:44
In reply to Is Depression a choice?, posted by rjlockhart on August 21, 2006, at 19:37:17
> I have just been thinking, when you get depressed, do you choose to get in that state, or is it the actual state you in.
>
> Can you chose not too? and say no, do anything to do it, but i have noticed sometimes the problem is motivation.
>
> What do you think?Hi Matt,
I believe that anybody that has been through true major depression would answer that it was not their choice. To be on the floor in a fetal position and being so miserable and hopeless that dying is the preferable alternative. I think I would rather deal with almost any thing else. On top of this, is the stigma of mental illness, that still exists. The disease runs in both sides of my family. I have several first cousins who have suicided. I just pray that my daughter doesn't have to go through the pain that I have.While trying to recover, I believe you are correct in that a lot of people have trouble with motivation. Part of this is related to the medications we use and part is the disease. I'm currently trying to talk my MD into augmenting with modafinil, for just this reason. No luck yet.
Take care,
Jedi
Posted by SLS on August 22, 2006, at 7:17:31
In reply to Is Depression a choice?, posted by rjlockhart on August 21, 2006, at 19:37:17
This question comes up regularly. It is usually not worded as succintly as this, though.
I think the problem with trying to answer it is that the word "depression" is not defined narrowly enough such that it represents the same phenomenon among the individuals who use it to describe their experiences.
I don't think there are too many people who, if given the choice, would choose to feel bad rather than to feel good.
Some people can experience depression as a result of the choices they make without choosing to be depressed.
Some people experience depression independent of the choices they make.
- Scott
Posted by Squiggles on August 22, 2006, at 10:29:13
In reply to Is Depression a choice?, posted by rjlockhart on August 21, 2006, at 19:37:17
> I have just been thinking, when you get depressed, do you choose to get in that state, or is it the actual state you in.
>
> Can you chose not too? and say no, do anything to do it, but i have noticed sometimes the problem is motivation.
>
> What do you think?
I believe all animals strive to be
happy and free of pain.Squiggles
Posted by deniseuk190466 on August 22, 2006, at 11:22:38
In reply to Re: Is Depression a choice?, posted by ciaolavida on August 21, 2006, at 20:37:49
I couldn't agree more with what Maxine said and I really hate it when people (and they've said it to me in the past) say that you choose to be the state you are in.
I have a friend who likes to think he's the bloody Dhali Lama tells me that you choose to be in the state you are in.
This really pisses me off because I do everything I can to try and get out of the state I am in, excersising, thinking happy comforting thoughts, eating sensibly, working, smiling when I don't feel like it etc etc and just sitting back and accepting the way I feel but I still feel crap and depressed and apathetic.
This guy I know (the Dhali Lama wannabe) gorges on chocolate, fatty foods and spends most of his time playing computer games, reading books, watching films and never trying to do anything he doesn't want to do. I have nothing against the way he lives his life and even have some admiration for it but I really resent this idea of his that I choose to be the way I am when he himself has never suffered from depression and has no idea what it is like.
Oh how I wish and I know this is wrong that somebody would invent a depression inducer and then I'd use it on him for at least a year until he took back all his stupid opinions.
Denise
Posted by Squiggles on August 22, 2006, at 11:57:13
In reply to Re: Is Depression a choice? » rjlockhart, posted by Squiggles on August 22, 2006, at 10:29:13
> > I have just been thinking, when you get depressed, do you choose to get in that state, or is it the actual state you in.
> >
> > Can you chose not too? and say no, do anything to do it, but i have noticed sometimes the problem is motivation.
> >
> > What do you think?
>
>
> I believe all animals strive to be
> happy and free of pain.
>
> Squiggles
>
p.s. sorry, i should have added that
if you have endogenous depression this cannot
be achieved, except through drugs;
Posted by invisibleman15010 on August 22, 2006, at 18:53:46
In reply to Re: Is Depression a choice? » Squiggles, posted by Squiggles on August 22, 2006, at 11:57:13
If depression is a choice, then choosing our way out of this continual cycle of suffering must be a choice also. What do you choose?
e
Posted by Squiggles on August 22, 2006, at 19:20:21
In reply to Re: Is Depression a choice?Our way out must be one, posted by invisibleman15010 on August 22, 2006, at 18:53:46
> If depression is a choice, then choosing our way out of this continual cycle of suffering must be a choice also. What do you choose?
> eIt depends on the severity and cause of
depression. If you are depressed because
you lost your pet, you might recover in
time. If you are depressed (clinically)
for no apparent reason, you need drugs.
If you are depressed from a shock in your
life (e.g. wartime experiences or torture)
you may never recover on your own, and
need drugs.I am glad i chose to go to ER when my
depression came out of the blue. I knew
I had succumbed to some biological problem
independent of my social circumstances.
I could have chosen to remain suicidally
depressed, as in some tragic cases in the news.
Squiggles
Posted by rjlockhart on August 22, 2006, at 22:05:06
In reply to Re: Is Depression a choice?, posted by SLS on August 22, 2006, at 7:17:31
I think that really if you get your mind on something that is not depressing, well actaully disagree, i have done things that i enjoy and still feel like crap.
This question is my mind, did make the choice or have you already made it. Now its its why to see why you made a choice. This is something i would think in sitiations like this. in depth thinking i think alot...
Anyways, depression i think really is truly genetic, plaged by it. Many people suffrefed with it in past, but sometimes i think depression is the situation you in, that you dont like, why is my life like this? or relationships, anything that you are letdown on. Does anyone agree?
Well my internet is not being fast so i just got sometime to get on here. Our wireless internet broke. Dial-up again....
Matt
Posted by Phillipa on August 22, 2006, at 22:29:42
In reply to Re: Is Depression a choice?, posted by rjlockhart on August 22, 2006, at 22:05:06
Matt I do agree with you. Love Phillipa
Posted by mayzee on August 23, 2006, at 20:43:47
In reply to Re: Is Depression a choice?, posted by finelinebob on August 21, 2006, at 21:07:01
> At 72nd and Broadway here in NYC, there is a sign painted on the side of a building that must be 10 stories tall. Yellow backgound, black text. It's been there forever, as far as I know, and "forever" for me as a New Yorker goes back 10 years. It reads:
>
> Depression is a flaw in chemistry, not in character.
>Hey finelinebob,
Can you take a digital photo of that building and post it for us to see? :)
thanks for sharing,
mayzee
Posted by finelinebob on August 23, 2006, at 22:07:36
In reply to Re: Is Depression a choice? » finelinebob, posted by mayzee on August 23, 2006, at 20:43:47
> > At 72nd and Broadway here in NYC, there is a sign painted on the side of a building that must be 10 stories tall. Yellow backgound, black text. It's been there forever, as far as I know, and "forever" for me as a New Yorker goes back 10 years. It reads:
> >
> > Depression is a flaw in chemistry, not in character.
> >
>
> Hey finelinebob,
>
> Can you take a digital photo of that building and post it for us to see? :)
>
> thanks for sharing,
> mayzeeSure. I'll be in the neightborhood tomorrow to see my T.
Posted by JahL on August 24, 2006, at 14:47:39
In reply to Is Depression a choice?, posted by rjlockhart on August 21, 2006, at 19:37:17
> ...but i have noticed sometimes the problem is motivation.
Yes, RJ, but amotivation is itself a symptom of depression. So perhaps when it appears someone isn't 'doing enough' to battle this crippling condition, they're really just at the mercy of their anergia.
> What do you think?I think no-one in their right mind, so to speak, would *choose* to forego pleasure in return for the mental *pain* that is depression.
Except for maybe those wacky EMO kids :-)
I guess sometimes one can over-analyse the situation and lose sight of what it is you must do to break free from the shackles of depression.
Take care,
J.
Posted by Squiggles on August 24, 2006, at 15:20:47
In reply to Re: Is Depression a choice? » rjlockhart, posted by JahL on August 24, 2006, at 14:47:39
Sorry, I have to leave this libertarian
conversation; it reminds me of Superman
and "Winged Victory"; if you can create
yourself, good for you- i'm a determinist.Squiggles
Posted by JahL on August 24, 2006, at 16:01:00
In reply to Re: Is Depression a choice? » JahL, posted by Squiggles on August 24, 2006, at 15:20:47
> Sorry, I have to leave this libertarian
> conversation; it reminds me of Superman
> and "Winged Victory"; if you can create
> yourself, good for you- i'm a determinist.If you say so.
Posted by JahL on August 24, 2006, at 16:30:02
In reply to Re: Is Depression a choice?, posted by JahL on August 24, 2006, at 16:01:00
> > Sorry, I have to leave this libertarian
> > conversation; it reminds me of Superman
> > and "Winged Victory"; if you can create
> > yourself, good for you- i'm a determinist.
>
> If you say so.Sorry, wasn't paying attention. Not US so not familiar with your references. Having read your other posts, I am in complete agreement.
J.
Posted by Declan on August 26, 2006, at 3:47:23
In reply to Re: Is Depression a choice?, posted by SLS on August 22, 2006, at 7:17:31
We can be perverse enough to prefer unhappiness to happiness. We would not be so interesting otherwise. How do you explain evil and destructiveness? Not, I hasten to say, that people who are depressed are evil and destructive. Although when I'm depressed I feel a bit like that.
Posted by invisibleman15010 on August 26, 2006, at 9:11:39
In reply to Re: Is Depression a choice?, posted by JahL on August 24, 2006, at 16:01:00
I guess sticking pins and needles in my eyes would be a choice in the same vain. Yeah, I just woke up one fine morning and said,,dang let's make life interesting.....I want to have severe anxiety and life destroying depression.....yeah, I remember that's just what happened........
e
Posted by Jost on August 26, 2006, at 21:51:58
In reply to Re: Is Depression a choice?, posted by invisibleman15010 on August 26, 2006, at 9:11:39
It's not a choice, but there are elements of choice at times in it, sometimes only in how or how much to work against it.
I'd say the area of choice is greater or smaller as one's depression becomes less or more. The choice is constrained at best, and seems to vanish pretty quickly.
Also, there's a lot of luck or chance in whether you meet someone who can help you ( a Pdoc or T or other mentor or friend), too, even if you're looking.
Jost
Posted by invisibleman15010 on August 27, 2006, at 8:56:41
In reply to Re: Is Depression a choice?, posted by Jost on August 26, 2006, at 21:51:58
Luck of the draw for sure in getting the right help. There are some great clinics out there, but many you just can't get access to whether because of insurance, they are not taking new patients etc..plus I know the first clinic I got in to via my GP, it took 4 months for a first visit time and I was really hurting....I know of a local clinic that is supposed to have a suberb staff, doctors that are state of the art in meds., excellent therapists and they work as a team to heal a patient.......but...they were not taking new patients....you truly do have to "shop" dr.s, not just Psy. docs or therapists, but it seems like that category is particulary hard to find the right fit........which only compounds our issues and frustrates us that much more........I think ol W. Bush should of sent those millions that went to Palestine to the American Health system.......
e
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