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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Phillipa on August 15, 2006, at 21:59:37
Can you switch directly from klonopin to valium without side effects? After two weeks on klonopin I find myself not liking it and feeling worse. Could this be the valium I've taken for 2years wearing off as it has a longer half-life too? Love Phillipa
Posted by rjlockhart on August 15, 2006, at 22:35:22
In reply to Switch directly from klonopin to Valium?, posted by Phillipa on August 15, 2006, at 21:59:37
When did you start Klonopin?
didnt valium used to work for you.
Yes Klonopin is more depressing than Valium but much more potent mentally. I was on Klonopin for months at high doses and found myself depressed as it can be.
Klonopin doesnt have the longer half life as valium which can last for a day. I dont think it will interfeare since where not speaking of MAOI's but it could have a depressing effect with both drugs.....klonopin and valium together = Z O N E D
i would suggest stay with valium, or maybe increase.
Matt
Posted by Phillipa on August 15, 2006, at 22:45:20
In reply to Re: Switch directly from klonopin to Valium?, posted by rjlockhart on August 15, 2006, at 22:35:22
Matt I went on klonopin and yes I agree it's more depressing and want to go back to valium but do you know if you can just switch over as I think the valium is wearing off increasing my anxiety. Love Phillipa
Posted by jedi on August 16, 2006, at 2:15:30
In reply to Re: Switch directly from klonopin to Valium? » rjlockhart, posted by Phillipa on August 15, 2006, at 22:45:20
> Matt I went on klonopin and yes I agree it's more depressing and want to go back to valium but do you know if you can just switch over as I think the valium is wearing off increasing my anxiety. Love Phillipa
Hi Phillipa,
According to the Benzodiazepine Equivalence Table I have, clonazepam is 20 times stonger than diazepam. So 1mg of Klonopin equals 20mg of Valium. Check your dosages.
Source:
http://www.benzo.org.uk/bzequiv.htm
Take care,
Jedi
Posted by UgottaHaveHope on August 16, 2006, at 3:23:51
In reply to Switch directly from klonopin to Valium?, posted by Phillipa on August 15, 2006, at 21:59:37
nm
Posted by UgottaHaveHope on August 16, 2006, at 3:25:02
In reply to Yes, shouldnt have any side effects, posted by UgottaHaveHope on August 16, 2006, at 3:23:51
You should have no problem at all switching from benzo to benzo to benzo.
Posted by med_empowered on August 16, 2006, at 9:49:31
In reply to Yes, shouldnt have any side effects, posted by UgottaHaveHope on August 16, 2006, at 3:23:51
i think valium is used a lot for tapering off klonopin, so your doc could probably just switch you over to a more or less equivalent dosage of valium and see what happens.
I don't know why docs love Klonopin (and Tranxene) so much these days. Both of these meds can cause pretty bad depression--it would seem that with all the benzos available, there'd be more variety in RX'ing. Oh well.
Some docs seem reluctant to RX valium--I'm not quite sure why. Ativan might be helpful, as might Serax or maybe even Xanax XR (although xanax xr can be ridiculously $$$ w/o insurance).
Posted by valene on August 16, 2006, at 12:41:52
In reply to Re: Yes, shouldnt have any side effects, posted by med_empowered on August 16, 2006, at 9:49:31
Phillipa, as long as the dosage is the same, (K is about 20 times stronger than valium) you should have no trouble with withdrawal or anything. Should be fine. Klonopin can be depressing for some people, but the same can be said for valium. I do best on xanax and have stuck with it as you know. Best wishes, Love, Val
Posted by Phillipa on August 16, 2006, at 19:42:24
In reply to Re: Switch directly from klonopin to Valium? » Phillipa, posted by jedi on August 16, 2006, at 2:15:30
Jedi that's interesting. I wonder why Dr. Bobs' equivalency chart says lmg of klonopin=l0mg of valium? I called my pdoc today. She said go back on the valium. I asked the same question to her and she said .5 klonopin =5mg of valium. Same as Bob's? Are there different ones? Love Phillipa
Posted by jedi on August 16, 2006, at 21:06:55
In reply to Re: Switch directly from klonopin to Valium? » jedi, posted by Phillipa on August 16, 2006, at 19:42:24
> Jedi that's interesting. I wonder why Dr. Bobs' equivalency chart says lmg of klonopin=l0mg of valium? I called my pdoc today. She said go back on the valium. I asked the same question to her and she said .5 klonopin =5mg of valium. Same as Bob's? Are there different ones? Love Phillipa
Hi again,
Yes there is a lot of misinformation on the internet. In Dr. Bob's Tips the first chart, by Dr. George Davidson, shows .25mg clonazepam equals 5mg diazepam. This is a 20 to 1 ratio. The 2nd chart, by Dr. Felicity Plunkett, shows 2mg of clonazepam equals 10mg of diazepam. This is a 5 to 1 ratio. I believe the 2nd one is way off. In all fairness she qualifies the information by saying she can't guarantee it's accuracy. Almost all of the charts I found show a 20 to 1 ratio. If you Google "benzodiazepine equivalence" you will find lots of them.
Source:
http://www.dr-bob.org/tips/bzd.html
Take care,
Jedi
Posted by Maxime on August 16, 2006, at 21:11:59
In reply to Switch directly from klonopin to Valium?, posted by Phillipa on August 15, 2006, at 21:59:37
> Can you switch directly from klonopin to valium without side effects? After two weeks on klonopin I find myself not liking it and feeling worse. Could this be the valium I've taken for 2years wearing off as it has a longer half-life too? Love Phillipa
Haven't you posted this question already? Yes, you can switch back. It's the method used to get off any benzo. You switch to valium because it has a longer half life.
maxime
Posted by Phillipa on August 16, 2006, at 21:17:32
In reply to Re: Switch directly from klonopin to Valium? » Phillipa, posted by Maxime on August 16, 2006, at 21:11:59
Thanks Maxie for some reason you worded that so my pee brain understood it. Love Phillipa no I don't think I posted this before but then I have no memory.
Posted by Phillipa on August 16, 2006, at 21:24:15
In reply to Re: Switch directly from klonopin to Valium? » Phillipa, posted by jedi on August 16, 2006, at 21:06:55
Jedi I think the difference may lie in the half-life. Valium is 200hours plus and Klonopin is 80. So does this mean that my two weeks of klonopin from the valium. My withdrawal effects aren't from luvox but from Valium? What do you think? love Phillipa
Posted by yxibow on August 17, 2006, at 1:17:32
In reply to Re: Switch directly from klonopin to Valium? » jedi, posted by Phillipa on August 16, 2006, at 21:24:15
> Jedi I think the difference may lie in the half-life. Valium is 200hours plus and Klonopin is 80. So does this mean that my two weeks of klonopin from the valium. My withdrawal effects aren't from luvox but from Valium? What do you think? love Phillipa
As I have noted before, you can cross-taper rather easily on your dose back to Valium. I would add Valium first and then remove the Klonopin. The first table on http://www.dr-bob.org/tips/bzd.html Dr Bob's site is accurate. 1mg of Klonopin is about 20mg of Valium, at least for my body.
There are lots of sub metabolites in benzodiazepines which stretch to these long hours but they aren't the principle factors, but as far as my doctor has seen in practice, and this may vary from person to person, Valium is about 24+, maybe more hours, and in practice Klonopin is only about 16 hours and is often dosed twice daily.
You shouldn't have a problem.
Tidings
-- Jay
Posted by fuchsia on August 19, 2006, at 7:57:15
In reply to Switch directly from klonopin to Valium?, posted by Phillipa on August 15, 2006, at 21:59:37
> Can you switch directly from klonopin to valium without side effects? After two weeks on klonopin I find myself not liking it and feeling worse. Could this be the valium I've taken for 2years wearing off as it has a longer half-life too? Love Phillipa
Phillipa I don't think valium and klonopin can always be used interchangeably even if you use an equivalence table. They are similar but they don't completely overlap in the receptors they cover. If you have been on the valium for a very long time (was it two years only? I thought it was more) then I think you could still feel a bit odd two weeks after you came off the valium, even if you replaced it with klonopin. I think if you went back on the valium though you would get back to where you were before without much trouble.
Sorry you're not feeling too good.
Posted by yxibow on August 19, 2006, at 16:47:38
In reply to Re: Switch directly from klonopin to Valium? » Phillipa, posted by fuchsia on August 19, 2006, at 7:57:15
> > Can you switch directly from klonopin to valium without side effects? After two weeks on klonopin I find myself not liking it and feeling worse. Could this be the valium I've taken for 2years wearing off as it has a longer half-life too? Love Phillipa
>
> Phillipa I don't think valium and klonopin can always be used interchangeably even if you use an equivalence table. They are similar but they don't completely overlap in the receptors they cover. If you have been on the valium for a very long time (was it two years only? I thought it was more) then I think you could still feel a bit odd two weeks after you came off the valium, even if you replaced it with klonopin. I think if you went back on the valium though you would get back to where you were before without much trouble.
>
> Sorry you're not feeling too good.
All benzodiazepines overlap in their receptor coverage, its a question of how much. They all hit GABA, muscle relaxation, sedation, anticonvulsion, and anesthesia. Its just a question of minute but sometimes perceptable differences. As for any other receptors, serotonin, etc, its only in theory, in practice that is far more minute than their effects on GABA.Restoril, for example would not replace Klonopin, because it is more heavy on sedation; Versed is more heavy on anesthesia, Klonopin is I think more heavy on muscle relaxation and definately on anticonvulsion, etc.
But both Klonopin and Valium do have large effects on anxiety, its just a question of minute differences that make some people (who may be depressed already) more depressed. They also cause CNS and respiratory depression, which is separate but can feel like tiredness and depression as well
-- Jay
Posted by sdb on August 19, 2006, at 19:02:33
In reply to Re: Switch directly from klonopin to Valium? » fuchsia, posted by yxibow on August 19, 2006, at 16:47:38
A benzodiazepine does not necessarily induce depression. Librium is one possible example. Prazepam is a benzodiazepine even with antidepressant properties in some studies. Prazepam does actually the same as diazepam. The only difference is that prazepam is metabolized fastly in norprazepam = nordiazepam (whereas active Valium itself has a 1/2 life of approx. 24 hours) and another metabolite with a short 1/2 life, furthermore it has a slow resorption. Maybe the short antidepressant effect is caused by this or other metabolites. According to studies 30mg-60mg is needed. Unfortunately prazepam is no more available in the US but in other countries. Funny because Pfizer is a US company.
Posted by Phillipa on August 19, 2006, at 19:31:21
In reply to Re: Switch directly from klonopin to Valium? » fuchsia, posted by yxibow on August 19, 2006, at 16:47:38
So you're saying that a person on benzos who feels depressed may not truly be? Love Phillipa
Posted by fuchsia on August 19, 2006, at 19:44:21
In reply to Re: Switch directly from klonopin to Valium? » fuchsia, posted by yxibow on August 19, 2006, at 16:47:38
>
> All benzodiazepines overlap in their receptor coverage, its a question of how much. They all hit GABA, muscle relaxation, sedation, anticonvulsion, and anesthesia. Its just a question of minute but sometimes perceptable differences. As for any other receptors, serotonin, etc, its only in theory, in practice that is far more minute than their effects on GABA.
>
> Restoril, for example would not replace Klonopin, because it is more heavy on sedation; Versed is more heavy on anesthesia, Klonopin is I think more heavy on muscle relaxation and definately on anticonvulsion, etc.
>
Yes; I agree with what you're saying. In my case when I changed from Klonopin to Valium using the equivalence table after 12 years on Klonopin the difference had become very perceptible. I had a seizure (of a kind) and became extremely depressed.
Posted by Phillipa on August 19, 2006, at 20:35:08
In reply to Re: Switch directly from klonopin to Valium? » yxibow, posted by fuchsia on August 19, 2006, at 19:44:21
Fuchsia how did you make the switch? Love Phillipa
Posted by Greif on August 23, 2006, at 21:25:37
In reply to Re: Switch directly from klonopin to Valium? » fuchsia, posted by Phillipa on August 19, 2006, at 20:35:08
I have switched benzos many times. Always advised to transition 25%/week. So the transition takes 4 weeks. It can be done more rapidly but I have never had the urgency to do so.
Posted by yxibow on August 23, 2006, at 23:35:46
In reply to Re: Switch directly from klonopin to Valium?, posted by Greif on August 23, 2006, at 21:25:37
> I have switched benzos many times. Always advised to transition 25%/week. So the transition takes 4 weeks. It can be done more rapidly but I have never had the urgency to do so.
If you're on a small amount maybe -- sometimes 10% a week is all that one can stand, from the perspective of someone on a high benzodiazepine with possible reductions. Its all an individual thing, and if any symptoms or side effects should come roaring back, the reduction or transfer should be scaled back considerably below 25%. There's always time, even if life is short, it goes on despite transitioning or reduction.
Posted by yxibow on August 23, 2006, at 23:39:29
In reply to Re: Switch directly from klonopin to Valium? » yxibow, posted by Phillipa on August 19, 2006, at 19:31:21
> So you're saying that a person on benzos who feels depressed may not truly be? Love Phillipa
Not necessarily -- they may be intrinsically depressed -- its possible, I have heard enough reports on here about Klonopin depression though I don't think I've experienced it myself. I've experienced somewhat minor depression on other agents like Restoril the next day after.
But CNS depression, pure tiredness and cognitive slowdown in the central nervous system may feel like depression enough that it actually is perceived as depression. But it isn't true depression, its just a physiological reaction to sleep-inducing substances like alcohol, etc.
Posted by Phillipa on August 24, 2006, at 19:31:07
In reply to Re: Switch directly from klonopin to Valium? » Phillipa, posted by yxibow on August 23, 2006, at 23:39:29
Jay , I knew the PHD was wrong. As I wasn't depressed til he told me he hated benzos cause they were depressing. So how come when I drank nightly I wasn't ever depressed the next day. I felt great! Love Phillipa
This is the end of the thread.
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