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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Jimmyboy on August 8, 2006, at 11:31:38
Has anyone found this effective to help with their depression?I have BP II- so I know this could not be such a good idea b/c it could cause a swith into mania/hypomania.. but I would say that I spend 99% of the time in a depressed mood and only twice had above normal mood elevations in my whole life, so I am not to worried about that.
But if this has worked for anyone, I would really like to hear about it...
here are a couple of interesting links.
1. "Sustained antidepressant effect of sleep deprivation combined with pindolol in bipolar depression. A placebo-controlled trial."
2. "Therapeutic use of sleep deprivation in depression."PS - sorry caan't figure out how to make a link .. but I guess you could copy/paste if you would like to check these out..
JB
Posted by Phillipa on August 8, 2006, at 13:53:22
In reply to Sleep Deprivation for depression, posted by Jimmyboy on August 8, 2006, at 11:31:38
No need to cut and paste you did make a link. Thanks Love Phillipa
Posted by linkadge on August 8, 2006, at 17:05:08
In reply to Sleep Deprivation for depression, posted by Jimmyboy on August 8, 2006, at 11:31:38
There is a lot of researh in the area. I find it does help. I was doing a SD + lithium combination for a while and that did help, but it was during school time and the cognitive effects of both were not managable. If you were working a job where you thought you could jepordize a day or two a week then its not too bad an idea.
Just stay of the entire night with movies or such, then plan low key activities the next day. Keep stress to a minimum, and don't go to bed too early the next nigh, (or sleep to long the subsequent morning)
Linkadge
Posted by Jimmyboy on August 8, 2006, at 17:51:34
In reply to Re: Sleep Deprivation for depression, posted by linkadge on August 8, 2006, at 17:05:08
Linkadge,
I have read some of that research that says the SD is more effective when combined with Lithium, I take Lamictal, not Lithium .. any idea if the Lamictal would work like the Lith. in that respect?
JB
> There is a lot of researh in the area. I find it does help. I was doing a SD + lithium combination for a while and that did help, but it was during school time and the cognitive effects of both were not managable. If you were working a job where you thought you could jepordize a day or two a week then its not too bad an idea.
>
> Just stay of the entire night with movies or such, then plan low key activities the next day. Keep stress to a minimum, and don't go to bed too early the next nigh, (or sleep to long the subsequent morning)
>
> Linkadge
>
>
>
Posted by linkadge on August 8, 2006, at 21:06:24
In reply to Re: Sleep Deprivation for depression » linkadge, posted by Jimmyboy on August 8, 2006, at 17:51:34
SD increases hippocampal content of serotonin. I think that pindolol and lithium have been used to sustain the effect due to their ability to do the same.
I don't know if lamotragine would have the same effect.
If you found that SD had an effect for you, then you could mention it to your doctor, perhaps with abstracts about the ssutaining effet of lithium pindolol etc.
Note, some people may feel worse the day of SD, but actually feel better on subsequent days. I guess keep that in mind too.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on August 8, 2006, at 21:21:55
In reply to Re: Sleep Deprivation for depression » linkadge, posted by Jimmyboy on August 8, 2006, at 17:51:34
Sleep deprvation does all sorts of crazy things, from affecting the metabolism of the three monoamines to affecting acetylcholinsterase.
I'd say that SD is the only thing that makes me feel like myself. It copletely inhibited all the nonsensicle self analyzation, and just left me normal for a few days.
Linkadge
Posted by fuchsia on August 8, 2006, at 22:45:05
In reply to Sleep Deprivation for depression, posted by Jimmyboy on August 8, 2006, at 11:31:38
Hi JB
Thanks for posting the links to those abstracts.
Sleep deprivation definitely works for me; I have bipolar II and it does make my thoughts race sometimes. As far as I can tell the effect is unfortunately fairly transient.
I take Lamictal and I'm not sure how the sleep deprivation interacts with that. I think the effect may have been greater before the Lamictal but then the depression was so much worse then so it's hard to tell.
Another factor more recently is that I had a baby in December last year so in this last 8 months I have had a lot of severe and ongoing sleep deprivation, more so in the first several months.
It's very hard to disentangle the effect of the Lamictal from the effect of the sleep deprivation as I did also increase the Lamictal over many months.As the months of sleep deprivation wore on I do think it eventually did drag on my mood. The baby sort of sleep deprivation though is not the way you would do it if you were setting out to use the sleep deprivation tool seriously.
fuchsia
> 2. "Therapeutic use of sleep deprivation in depression."
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12531127&query_hl=28
>
> PS - sorry caan't figure out how to make a link .. but I guess you could copy/paste if you would like to check these out..
>
> JB
Posted by Phillipa on August 8, 2006, at 23:39:53
In reply to Re: Sleep Deprivation for depression » Jimmyboy, posted by fuchsia on August 8, 2006, at 22:45:05
fuchsia it works your link Love Phillip
Posted by Jimmyboy on August 15, 2006, at 9:10:49
In reply to Re: Sleep Deprivation for depression » fuchsia, posted by Phillipa on August 8, 2006, at 23:39:53
I have been in a serious depression for about a month and extremely desperate , so I tried this out and stayed up all last night , and surprisingly I feel so much better today, I am more alert than usual and feel calm and the loop of negative thoughts that I have been dealing with are not there today. Even if the effects are short lived it is nice to have a good day for once. It gives me some hope finally : )
JB
Posted by WeeWilly on August 18, 2006, at 12:56:59
In reply to Re: Sleep Deprivation for depression- Update, posted by Jimmyboy on August 15, 2006, at 9:10:49
> I have been in a serious depression for about a month and extremely desperate , so I tried this out and stayed up all last night , and surprisingly I feel so much better today, I am more alert than usual and feel calm and the loop of negative thoughts that I have been dealing with are not there today. Even if the effects are short lived it is nice to have a good day for once. It gives me some hope finally : )
>
> JBQuite some time ago I could generate a 2 week remission of depression using sleep deprivation.
The procedure I used was not sleeping for two nights. At about 9 pm of the third night I would go to sleep, awakening about 6 am . The following nights I would sleep from 9 pm to 5 am or 10 pm to 6 am. After two weeks the depression like symptoms would return, sometimes mid day sometimes mid sentence while I was speaking. I wish this phenomenon still worked for me, allthough I did find it quite difficult at times to go without sleep for 60 plus hours. I have a good idea why sleep deprivation quit working for me but to explain that would take more time than I have now. Best wishes!
Posted by Jimmyboy on August 19, 2006, at 17:38:02
In reply to Re: Sleep Deprivation for depression- Update, posted by WeeWilly on August 18, 2006, at 12:56:59
Yeah I did this for 2 days alternating nights and took the 7.5 mg of Pindolol. It did help for a couple of days ( the staying up part was complete hell though! It is torture) Unfortunately for myself I came crashing down and feel about as bad as before . I can;t say that I would recommend doing this.
Posted by linkadge on August 20, 2006, at 2:21:25
In reply to Re: Sleep Deprivation for depression- Update, posted by Jimmyboy on August 19, 2006, at 17:38:02
If you're going to try it again, try to use a GSK-3b inhibitor right before you sleep. Lithium, Niacinamide, Depakote, and Cinnamon are GKS-3b inhibitors.
GSK-3b inhibitors are thought to underly the ability of the mood stabilizers to regulate the circadian rhythem, they also have antidepressant properties.
Linkadge
Posted by mentallybill on August 20, 2006, at 13:55:52
In reply to Re: Sleep Deprivation for depression- Update, posted by linkadge on August 20, 2006, at 2:21:25
I just want to make sure I understand what these posts are all about-its very easy for me to confuse things. So, are they basically saying that not sleeping for a night may help with depression for a few days? I have had many nights where I couldn't sleep because of racing mind and usually feel like crap the next day. I become very anxious and shaky and also very fatigued. The problem is that the next night I usually sleep way too much and screw up my sleep cycle even more. Let me know if there's any suggestions and if I am understanding the previous posts. Thank you
Posted by Phillipa on August 20, 2006, at 19:14:07
In reply to Re: Sleep Deprivation for depression- Update, posted by mentallybill on August 20, 2006, at 13:55:52
Yes that's what I think was implied. I'm like you a basket case without sleep. Love Phillipa
Posted by linkadge on August 20, 2006, at 21:33:14
In reply to Re: Sleep Deprivation for depression- Update » mentallybill, posted by Phillipa on August 20, 2006, at 19:14:07
There is a difference between "not sleeping" and sleep deprivation. Not sleeping, or not sleeping well, usually involve at least some sleep, or certain sleep stages. It is not complete sleep deprivation.
Total sleep deprivation eliminates REM sleep, and produces and antidepressant effect in a large number of depressed patients, *thought not all*. It is usually not efficatious in psychotic depression.
If you are going to try it for depression, you can't get ANY sleep. Even as much as 1 second of REM sleep recorded on an EEG can result in complete relapse, that is why having a lousy night of sleep is not the same as total sleep deprivation.http://www.psycom.net/depression.central.sleepdep.html
Linkadge
Posted by mentallybill on August 20, 2006, at 22:24:19
In reply to Re: Sleep Deprivation for depression- Update, posted by linkadge on August 20, 2006, at 21:33:14
Thank you so much for clearing that up. Usually I just have a hard time sleeping, but I do have many nights where I do not sleep at all. To see if this is effective as an sntidepressant for me, I think I would have to not sleep at all and not try to sleep. Usually when I dont sleep at all I am still trying to fall asleep. Is that what will make a difference as far as it being sleep deprivation?
Also, it is not psychotic depression I deal with. Just very horrible, deep depression-im sure many of you understand the situation.
Posted by Jimmyboy on August 21, 2006, at 13:19:43
In reply to Re: Sleep Deprivation for depression- Update, posted by mentallybill on August 20, 2006, at 22:24:19
I actually was on Lithobid (900mg) when I tried this, like I said it did provide relief, just very short term relief unfortunately. Although on the second day of sleep deprivation I had basically a short period of time where I felt hypomanic and obsessively cleaned ( did about 5 loads of laundry, cleaned my car out sp*c and span , which I have not done in who knows how long , and cleaned out my junk filled closet. Previously I have been so fatigued its hard to think, let alone be very active.
The cleaning went on almost obsessively for several hours until the fatigue set in. Just thought that was weird b.c I am not a clean freak by any means . But hey, it was nice to get all of that done that I have put off for so long.
JB
Posted by linkadge on August 21, 2006, at 19:07:02
In reply to Re: Sleep Deprivation for depression- Update, posted by mentallybill on August 20, 2006, at 22:24:19
Hmm. If you are half awake, you may still go through some stages of sleep. If you are WIDE awake the ENTIRE night yet still feel terrable the next day, then sleep deprivation may not be for you.
If you choose to try it, do it on a weekend, or day when you can relax the next day. Try to make the ordeal as stress free as possable. Don't go to bed to ealry the next night.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on August 21, 2006, at 19:09:18
In reply to Re: Sleep Deprivation for depression- Update, posted by Jimmyboy on August 21, 2006, at 13:19:43
The effects of SD can last more than just one night, in some people, but for some it ends as soon as sleep returns.
Its like invasion of the body snatchers. As long as you stay aways you're yourself, but if you sleep, they come to take you away.
Linkadge
This is the end of the thread.
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