![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 23 to 47 of 47. Go back in thread:
Posted by pseudoname on August 1, 2006, at 6:47:29
In reply to Pseudoname, I stand by everything I said before, posted by UgottaHaveHope on August 1, 2006, at 4:55:44
> PN, I am sorry if you have me confused with someone else, but I have never made "similiar" comments to Karen44 or anyone on this web site.
> I just took issue with a generalization she made [i.e., about Babblers]
I meant that, in my reading of them, you have made comments that were similar to Karen's *comments* — but only to the extent that they seemed constructed as Babbler generalizations; and not that you made the comments *to Karen*.
> I have tried to support or encourage Karen44
I don't question your motivations at all, Michael. My point was simply that I don't want others to question Karen's motivations, either, in the way that I outlined in my post.
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 1, 2006, at 9:03:38
In reply to Re: Pseudoname, I stand by everything I said before » UgottaHaveHope, posted by pseudoname on August 1, 2006, at 6:47:29
> My point was simply that I don't want others to question Karen's motivations
> I like Karen's post ... because it's clearly voiced from her point of view, it's not sneering, and it sounds like genuine dialogue-type questions.
Thanks for supporting Karen (and contributing in other ways), I appreciate that.
> Others making similar points sometimes have such a tone of moral superiority. Sometimes people come here just for the purpose of saying what a waste of time it is to come here.
But I'm afraid I need to ask you please to be careful when doing that not to jump to conclusions about others or to post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please first see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Declan on August 1, 2006, at 12:54:48
In reply to Quality of life the answer, and what about drugs?, posted by Sobriquet Style on August 1, 2006, at 5:56:43
Spot on, Sobriquet. Nice post. Anyway, the drugs aren't what they used to be, but it's good to know what to avoid. I just come here to chat.
Posted by nickguy on August 1, 2006, at 17:25:22
In reply to Re: Quality of life the answer, and what about dru » Sobriquet Style, posted by Declan on August 1, 2006, at 12:54:48
I think it's alright aslong as we see psychiatric medication as a tool, and not the whole toolbox. I really don't think I could ever come to terms with this experience if I took a pill and everything was fine. I wouldn't feel whole, and I think it's important to see this as an emotional and for some, spiritual growing experience.
Posted by Emme on August 1, 2006, at 17:45:01
In reply to Re: Quality of life the answer, and what about dru, posted by nickguy on August 1, 2006, at 17:25:22
> I really don't think I could ever come to terms with this experience if I took a pill and everything was fine.
I can appreciate how you would feel that way. For me it would be the opposite. I would be very happy if I took a pill and everything was fine. (Actually, that's been close to true at different times when meds have worked well.) I would be quite pleased because the wellness would permit me to:
- concentrate well enough to work on establishing I career I will feel good about.
- feel normal emotions so that I could enjoy music and poetry and films.
- have enough energy and motivation to keep up with my friends
- have enough energy and focus to learn new things.Which isn't to say I'm not trying to do these things anyway. But there is a difference in my ability to engage in life when the meds are working. I believe that for some people, they are *the* tool that makes all the other tools usable.
Posted by Gabbi~G on August 1, 2006, at 18:14:18
In reply to Quality of life the answer, and what about drugs?, posted by Sobriquet Style on August 1, 2006, at 5:56:43
What Emme said is exactly true for me as well.
"Which isn't to say I'm not trying to do these things anyway. But there is a difference in my ability to engage in life when the meds are working. I believe that for some people, they are *the* tool that makes all the other tools usable."I'm really curious though at how you came to the conclusion that people in the third world have a joy that we don't. That's a really broad statement and certainly doesn't mesh with what I've learned about the treatement of Women, or Lower Castes, or the children who are drug addicted and used as prostitutes or sold into slavery because of poverty.
It's true that a certain survival skill does develop when people are in a dire situation.
For instance during the holocaust more people
killed themselves after escaping concentration camps, than did inside the camps. That's because for the most part they had something to live for when they were imprisoned. For the impoverished it's finding the next meal.
Obviously that's not joy though.
Posted by nickguy on August 1, 2006, at 22:08:59
In reply to Re: Quality of life the answer, *triggers* » Sobriquet Style, posted by Gabbi~G on August 1, 2006, at 18:14:18
> What Emme said is exactly true for me as well.
Now that I think about it, I agree with what Emme said too, I guess for some meds are the KEY to the toolbox. But I think for a majority, meds can be a tool, but things like therapy are more important for their recovery.
>
> I'm really curious though at how you came to the conclusion that people in the third world have a joy that we don't. That's a really broad statement and certainly doesn't mesh with what I've learned about the treatement of Women, or Lower Castes, or the children who are drug addicted and used as prostitutes or sold into slavery because of poverty.
>That is way too broad of a statement, but It reminds me of something from the book "Lincoln's melancholia," a book about Abraham Lincoln and his depression. When he went on a slave boat for the first time, he saw the slaves all chained up and living in terrible conditions. However, they were singing and smiling, and Lincoln, a man of a political esteem, wished he could be in their place.
Posted by llrrrpp on August 1, 2006, at 22:47:53
In reply to Re: Quality of life the answer, *triggers* » Sobriquet Style, posted by Gabbi~G on August 1, 2006, at 18:14:18
my pdoc told me that the meds weren't going to make me better. they were going to make me feel a little bit better, but the real work was going to take place with my T.
When I was feeling really ill, all I wanted was a magic pill. Imagine my dissappointment.
Now that I'm feeling really good, I wonder what T and I are working on, exactly?
hmm.
-ll
Posted by SLS on August 2, 2006, at 0:42:02
In reply to Re: Quality of life the answer, *triggers*, posted by nickguy on August 1, 2006, at 22:08:59
> But I think for a majority, meds can be a tool, but things like therapy are more important for their recovery.
It really depends upon what it is we are talking about treating.
Depression is too big of a word in the English language. When it is used to describe what it is that I am suffering from, a biological intervention is all that is needed. When it is used to describe what it is that you are suffering from, apparently, psychotherapy is necessary. Whether or not this is the case with the majority may be debatable depending on the definition we choose to apply to the word "depression".
Because depression, being one word, is used to describe at least two different things, great confusion in communication is the result, which often leads to intense disagreements.
- Scott
Posted by Declan on August 2, 2006, at 2:16:54
In reply to Re: Quality of life the answer, *triggers* » nickguy, posted by SLS on August 2, 2006, at 0:42:02
Posted by Sobriquet Style on August 2, 2006, at 6:14:38
In reply to Re: Quality of life the answer, *triggers* » Sobriquet Style, posted by Gabbi~G on August 1, 2006, at 18:14:18
>I'm really curious though at how you came to the conclusion that people in the third world have a joy that we don't.
I would be too, as I was when I'd read about the 3rd world, before I had visted some of the countries. Granted I havent visited all of the countries, but i've been to a fair few which spans The America's - North, Central and South, Europe East and West, Asia (small part) and Africa (small part) Based on what i've seen in the various countries, their histories, cultures and the way of life of the local people eg being lucky enough to see how they live off the land with limited to no electricity/water and invited into their homes and other things, is what I base my conclusion on comparing them to the western developed countries I've been too.
Before this, I had read about it and thought, no way! Surely the developed western world is a far happier place. But serioulsy, and i'm sure there will be those who disagree, but based on my own opinon of what I've seen is the only way I can attest to my statement.
>That's a really broad statement
Perhaps, but to narrow it down (oxymoron?) I'd have to write a book!
>the treatement of Women, or Lower Castes, or the children who are drug addicted and used as prostitutes or sold into slavery because of poverty.
Thats interesting, the treatment of women, drug addicts and prostitution happens all over the world, but I know what you're saying.
Its hard to explain in writing, unless I wrote a book and can copy the amazon link! but in short, theres a social, health and happiness element in some of the 3rd world countries i've seen where people live from just afew dollars day if they're lucky, some in what could be described as shacks, with a separate outer building where theres a fire for food and home made beds and roofs made from the plants around them. Fair size families with the elderly to 6 months year old babies that look so healthy its truely astonishing. They have no social security, but everyone is so friendly torwards each other that the people who live close by are the social security. The job they do compared to welfare is, well its hard to put into words but its a better system than phoning a number being put on hold whilst you wait to speak to a stranger pressing 1 this, 2 for that etc. The food they eat is so healthy they live longer, they don't need any vitamins and in some respects the food tastes better than microwave meals. Even in some african countries where they get food from the UN, the food that they hunt for themselves be it cattle or crocodile, the people are so happy its unreal. They don't have burger king, and in all honestly i'm not sure if they'd want it... Antidepressants, their life is the antidepressant..
To sum up there was a recent happiness study published measuring peoples wellbeing and their impact on the environment. A tiny island in the South Pacific came top called Vanuatu. Colombia, Costa Rica, Dominica and Panama were also close in the top 5. This is where theres prostitution drugs and a different treatment of women too.
The United States came 150th, Canada 111th, Britain 108th and France 129th etc etc. To put this in perspective, I wouldn't say its exact, as of course everyone has their own opinons, but based on the countires i've visted I'd say its probably on the right tracks in my own opinon. A short while ago I was in South America speaking to someone from the States - who said to me, "Man, what I'd do to leave the States and live in a shack in a 3rd world country, I'd have a great life and hope to do it someday" Who'd of thought?
~
Posted by Gabbi~G on August 2, 2006, at 7:19:23
In reply to Re: Quality of life the answer, *triggers*, posted by Sobriquet Style on August 2, 2006, at 6:14:38
Thanks for the thoughtful answer.
IT reminds me of the book "city of Joy" about Calcutta.
I just am dubious about statements like that because although I know'personally happiness doesn't come frome having "stuff", it seems those romantic statements about the joy found in the most dire places, seem to come from those the observers the people who've lived it often (not always of course!) have much to say about the pain.Anyway back to meds..........
Posted by nickguy on August 2, 2006, at 13:04:34
In reply to Re: Quality of life the answer, *triggers* » Sobriquet Style, posted by Gabbi~G on August 2, 2006, at 7:19:23
This is going to sounds naive to most of you, but is it definite yet that depression is biologically related? I mean, they hardly know how the anti-depressants work, and all the serotonin, monoxidase, ect..explanations are all just theories, correct? However, I have read that they recently discovered a gene that is a precursor for depression. When they stimulated it, the lab rats got better. But it's only one of many genes that could cause depression. Another interesting thing, as I recall, is that this gene was not related to serotonin in any way.
Posted by UgottaHaveHope on August 2, 2006, at 15:40:01
In reply to Quality of life the answer, and what about drugs?, posted by Sobriquet Style on August 1, 2006, at 5:56:43
BEFORE RESPONDING, let me say first that I agree with the essence of your message. I think meds are a short-term answer and "quick fix" to emotional issues, while the long term solution is changing your lifestyle and the way you think. Needless to say, the latter is a very long process, one that I am not very strong in taking steps toward.
BUT I think your statement that people in third world countries are "happier and more content" is a gross generalization, i.e. Rowanda and too many other countries to mention. I think you can find people in this country (USA), the ones who have the proper perspective of things and are not brain-washed by the lies of perfection portrayed through the media, are just as happy as anyone anywhere.
Posted by Phillipa on August 2, 2006, at 16:22:49
In reply to Re: Quality of life the answer, *triggers*, posted by nickguy on August 2, 2006, at 13:04:34
Oh we gave my pdoc an article on how the Mayo Clinis is finding from genes what meds will or will not work for you. Love Phillipa
Posted by Sobriquet Style on August 2, 2006, at 17:06:37
In reply to Re: Quality of life the answer, *triggers*, posted by nickguy on August 2, 2006, at 13:04:34
>This is going to sounds naive to most of you, but is it definite yet that depression is biologically related?
Genes pop up here and there in studies but nothing is definite as of yet. The theory so far predicts it is a group of genes. If and when its proved mental conditions are genetic diseases with errors in the sequence of our DNA, then I guess the Psychiatrists will become used more rarely then today as we will need Geneticists or perhaps they will rename them Psygeneticists or something if and when that day ever comes!
~
Posted by Crazy Horse on August 2, 2006, at 17:07:49
In reply to Re: Medications the whole answer and what about li, posted by llrrrpp on July 31, 2006, at 23:24:32
> Hi all,
> I came to this board when I was terrified and twitching and panicky about losing my mind on my very first ever psych-med. What I found was that a lot of people experience just what I have, and often far worse. And no matter how many times the pdoc says: it sounds like a side effect/you are probably anxious and it's affecting your sleep/you should try to stick it out a few more weeks... I just wanted to go into hibernation and emerge when I was "better".
>
> I had strange expectations regarding psych-meds. I guess not so strange, given the advertising on TV. I would be depressed, take a magic pill and then catch butterflies and play with puppies. On psycho-babble I enjoy hearing people's personal stories. I have learned a lot about mental illness, pharmacology and healthcare here. I have revised many expectations, and suggested things to my pdoc which ended up positively affecting my treatment.
>
> Most of all, I think I have learned a lot from people that I used to shun as 'psycho'. You see, despite a family history of schizophrenia, bipolar, alcoholism and depression, I was arrogant and thought I was 'healthy'. I thought people were weak who needed to see a shrink or take 'those' kind of medications. I thought pdocs were little more than legal drug dealers with nice offices. Mostly I was scared of "them" the people in mental health- patients and practitioners, & probably of myself as well.
>
> I was SOOOOO wrong. 'psycho' people are real people. Just because they have severe depression doesn't make them less human. It doesn't change the fact that we worry about our family, our jobs, our health and our money. Our problems may be more complicated, rarer, and so on, but we can learn so much from the roadblocks and insights of others who are walking the road of recovery with us.
>
> The care and support of the mental health community was first demonstrated to me on psycho-babble. I learned that T and pdoc were not part of a 'system' to put me into a special category of 'crazy-psycho-for-life'. Rather, I learned that they care for my well-being and hope for my recovery. I could not have interpreted the events of my early sessions with T and pdoc were it not for p-babble help.
>
> And finally, I made some good friends here- people from all over the place. I like meeting nice people.
>
> sorry so long. I just wanted to reflect on how far I've come and how much I owe psycho-babble (all the boards)
>
> -llGREAT POST! Brought tears to my eyes. You have really been helped by coming here..i have too. For me it has truly been an education..my Pdoc looks at me with amazement in his eyes when i talk "psychopharmacology" with him, he knows i know what i am talking about and sometimes i think he gets a little embarrassed because i know more than him..especially about MAOI's. Anyway Psycho Babble Rocks!
Monte
Posted by wacky on August 4, 2006, at 9:36:32
In reply to Re: Medications the whole answer and what about li, posted by Crazy Horse on August 2, 2006, at 17:07:49
I have learned so much on this site - in such a short time. It has inspired me to take charge of my own care - and helped push me to make a final decision to start weaning off Effexor. Now that I've made the decision, I have a sense of determination to feel good without meds. I may be in denial - but - I'm very determined to give it a try for at least 3-6 months. 12 years ago, I was in the same spot - and went AMA (against medical advice) and went cold off everything. It turns out that I was fine - no dips, etc. Granted I had been on the meds for 2-3 years (and it's only been 1 year this time) - but the point is how much my determination affected the outcome. At least I attribute my "take charge" attitude partially to the success. I lasted 12 years before having a relapse which was induced by a boyfriend breaking up (in a very cruel way) with me.
Anyway, now I have that same "take charge" feeling - maybe it's a little rebellious (which is the real ME), so I believe I will be not just fine - but good. I haven't felt rebellious since I first started realizing I was depressed in mid 05.
I am grateful that this site is here - as it provides a wealth of information - in understandable language.
Thanks!
Posted by Karen44 on August 4, 2006, at 20:45:01
In reply to Re: Medications the whole answer and what about li, posted by wacky on August 4, 2006, at 9:36:32
> I have learned so much on this site - in such a short time. It has inspired me to take charge of my own care - and helped push me to make a final decision to start weaning off Effexor. Now that I've made the decision, I have a sense of determination to feel good without meds. I may be in denial - but - I'm very determined to give it a try for at least 3-6 months. 12 years ago, I was in the same spot - and went AMA (against medical advice) and went cold off everything. It turns out that I was fine - no dips, etc. Granted I had been on the meds for 2-3 years (and it's only been 1 year this time) - but the point is how much my determination affected the outcome. At least I attribute my "take charge" attitude partially to the success. I lasted 12 years before having a relapse which was induced by a boyfriend breaking up (in a very cruel way) with me.
>
> Anyway, now I have that same "take charge" feeling - maybe it's a little rebellious (which is the real ME), so I believe I will be not just fine - but good. I haven't felt rebellious since I first started realizing I was depressed in mid 05.
>
> I am grateful that this site is here - as it provides a wealth of information - in understandable language.
>
> Thanks!
Okay; I wasn't planning on writing anything anymore, but "wacky" your post has me concerned. When I stopped my Parnate, I did not go cold turkey, and I started on some other meds, Lamictal and 5 mg. of Moban at night. I am going up to 50 mg. of Lamictal as of tomorrow; I don't know about you, but I know that when I try to convince myself I am not depressed, it only lasts for so long. I could probably go for a number of months, but it would take it's toll in other ways. I have a bunch of issues that were put aside and never dealth with a number of years ago, and I sort of did okay over the years; just ignored and avoided certain things. Don't want to go into detail. I know that someday, maybe again I won't need medication. I went for over 10 years without medications. I don't know your situation, but you sound like your intent is to gut it out. It has never worked for me; are you sure you want to do this.I am going to be continuing with my psychiatrist; it will not be easy; lots that I would like to avoid; lots that leaves me feeling like crap; lots that leaves me angry with myself and with it easier to project that anger onto others; easier to get angry than scared; easier to ge angry than afraid to trust. Hope all are well.
Karen
Posted by Phillipa on August 4, 2006, at 21:30:39
In reply to Re: Medications the whole answer and what about li, posted by Karen44 on August 4, 2006, at 20:45:01
Karen you hit it. Anger is a powerful force. It got me a long way until I pooped out. Love Phillipa
Posted by SLS on August 5, 2006, at 9:59:55
In reply to Re: Medications the whole answer and what about li, posted by Karen44 on August 4, 2006, at 20:45:01
> I am going to be continuing with my psychiatrist; it will not be easy; lots that I would like to avoid; lots that leaves me feeling like crap; lots that leaves me angry with myself and with it easier to project that anger onto others; easier to get angry than scared; easier to ge angry than afraid to trust.
I wish you well along your path of exploration and transformation. Don't be a stranger!
- Scott
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 5, 2006, at 12:51:30
In reply to Are people in Rowanda happy and content? » Sobriquet Style, posted by UgottaHaveHope on August 2, 2006, at 15:40:01
> your statement that people in third world countries are "happier and more content"
Sorry to interrupt, but I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding people in Rowanda to Psycho-Babble Social. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20060728/msgs/674015.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Karen44 on August 7, 2006, at 6:33:34
In reply to Re: Medications the whole answer and what about li » Karen44, posted by SLS on August 5, 2006, at 9:59:55
> > I am going to be continuing with my psychiatrist; it will not be easy; lots that I would like to avoid; lots that leaves me feeling like crap; lots that leaves me angry with myself and with it easier to project that anger onto others; easier to get angry than scared; easier to ge angry than afraid to trust.
>
> I wish you well along your path of exploration and transformation. Don't be a stranger!
>
>
> - ScottScott
What do you know about adverse side effects or allergic reactions to Lamictal and/or Moban. You seem to know a lot about that sort of thing. Thanks.
Karen
Posted by SLS on August 7, 2006, at 6:40:43
In reply to Re: Medications the whole answer and what about li » SLS, posted by Karen44 on August 7, 2006, at 6:33:34
Hi Karen.
> > I wish you well along your path of exploration and transformation. Don't be a stranger!
> What do you know about adverse side effects or allergic reactions to Lamictal and/or Moban. You seem to know a lot about that sort of thing.I doubt I am going to know enough to be of any help.
What exactly is going on?
- Scott
Posted by Karen44 on August 7, 2006, at 11:18:32
In reply to Re: Medications the whole answer and what about li » Karen44, posted by SLS on August 7, 2006, at 6:40:43
> Hi Karen.
>
> I doubt I am going to know enough to be of any help.
>
> What exactly is going on?
>
>
> - Scottfeels like ants crawling under my skin-ankles; fever of 101-102, sore back and sore muscles-back, upper legs, upper arms, dizzy, raging headache. My doctor does not think it is the med's but said to quit them anyway. I went up from 25 mg Lamicatal to 50 mg Lamictal just two days previous; I have been taking Moban, 5 mg. at bedtime for two weeks. Since last evening and no meds this a.m., no more headache, less joint and muscle pain/spasms, still some antsy feeling in ankles, and fever is down to 99-100. Didn't go to work today; hate to stay home and be sick; would rather be able to stay home playing hooky, but I would never do that; guess I'm no fun.
Karen
This is the end of the thread.
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