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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by MARTY on May 30, 2006, at 20:28:33
I had around 7 tests for TSH, T3, T4. Four (4) of those returned some abnormal ackward results:From what I've read, if one number is high then the other should be low (sorry can't remember which one should be high and low etc). Well mine didn't have that logic, the 2 numbers were borderline/abnormal low. Sorry I can't give you number since I don't have copies of those test.
After 4 of those abnormal test, which docs confirmed me they dont know how to interpret those ("doesn't make sense"), OF THOSE DOCS NO ONE WANTED TO CHECK FURTHER.. without any symptoms or health problem, it would have been just plain stupid, but at which level could it be stupid when you consider this:
I'm 27. I have depression, anxiety, low energy, bad memory, low concentration, all kinds of rare side effects on meds, low-self esteem, etc.
(low blood platelet, gallstones, high liver enzyme.. guess it's not pertinent).. and I've been diagnosed 'Possible Bipolar type 2' because I had some hypomania on the first antidepressant I've tried (Paxil 60mg).My Pdoc send me see a very respected Psychiatrist
who is specialized in patient not responding to usual meds/combo (tried ~20+ meds) .. I'd like to have a chat about this, and that why I would appreciate any idea or thought.Anyone knowing Thyroid problems or thyroid meds augmentation ?
Marty
There is some research that found possible links between bipolar disorder.
Posted by Phillipa on May 30, 2006, at 22:33:01
In reply to Thyroid Abnormal Test Results, posted by MARTY on May 30, 2006, at 20:28:33
Marty I Don't know of any links between bipolar and thryroid. I have Hashimotos thyroiditis I take synthroid for this. When My TSH was high I was about to jump out of the window with high anxiety. As a matter of fact this high TSH resulted in my first hospitalization my anxiety was so high. Love Phillipa
Posted by sparky123 on May 31, 2006, at 4:14:46
In reply to Thyroid Abnormal Test Results, posted by MARTY on May 30, 2006, at 20:28:33
read the book "the thyroid solution" its one of best books on the subject. ive read about 10 books on thyroid. thats the best one and he discusses the link between bipolar and hypothyroidism. may be the local library has it.
how thyroid mimics many of the mental health conditions of today. may be all you need is to add T3 to your thyroid mix to make it run 100%. thats tricky and only limited doctors deal with it. he speaks about this perfectly. even the patient advocate mary shommon writes a review and recomonds every thyroid patient read it. check out her review at her website. search mary shammon
i have a post above check it out cause im not going to stick around for much longer i think.
im going to leave this behind me i got to get away from this environment,NARDIL couldnt get.i was suicidal now normal again sparky123 5/27/06
i wish you luck. cya
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 31, 2006, at 10:33:15
In reply to Re: Thyroid Abnormal Test Results, posted by sparky123 on May 31, 2006, at 4:14:46
> how thyroid mimics many of the mental health conditions of today. may be all you need is to add T3 to your thyroid mix to make it run 100%. thats tricky and only limited doctors deal with it.
Sparky's right, except thyroid doesn't mimic mental illness. It can be a mental illness.
Thyroid hormone in the T4 form operates on two distinct levels. It has its own physiological effects, quite separate from those of other thyroid hormone(s). And, it serves as a pro-drug, a pro-hormone, for T3. Your body is much more sensitive to T3, and your liver ought to be doing a good deal of that conversion, T4 --> T3. There ought to be a good balance between T4 and T3 in the blood, both bound (to globbulin proteins designed precisely for that task), and free hormone.
That's just one aspect of thyroid chemistry. There's another one, often completed dismissed or ignored.
Many organs/tissues do their own T3 conversions, from free T4 captured from the blood. The specific organs have their own enzymes to accomplish this. The organ has its own feedback loop, operating within the other grosser systemic feedback loop (the TSH feedback loop). A person can experience the effects of having localized or functional deficiencies of T3, because the deiodinating enzymes (converting T4 to T3) in that tissue are incompetent for some reason. The system looks good on paper, but subsystems are failing. If the subsystem that is failing is in the brain, you get psych effects. One common site of failure is the hypothalamus. It doesn't matter, though, precisely where it happens. It only matters if and when it does happen.
An analogy to this condition is insulin resistance. That is tissue-specific failure to respond to insulin (usually muscle). It eventually leads to systemic failure, if it's not managed effectively, but it begins as a tissue-specific failure to respond to normal levels of insulin in the blood.
Oral T4 (Synthroid) is insufficient to supplement tissue-specific T3 disturbance, because the affected tissue can't use T4 any longer. It needs to get enough T3 (Cytomel) to do its work from *somewhere*, so the blood concentration *has* to be increased artificially.
That leads to suppression of TSH and all kinds of hoohah. But if that's what it takes, that's what it takes. A person then becomes totally dependent on oral hormone supplementation. For some reason, doctors are loathe to take that on. But we do total insulin supplementation all the time, and nobody gives that any thought.
Lar
Posted by CEK on May 31, 2006, at 17:05:47
In reply to Re: Thyroid Abnormal Test Results » sparky123, posted by Larry Hoover on May 31, 2006, at 10:33:15
Larry, I'm so glad you posted this. I've read up on this thyroid stuff for a while. My tests come out in "normal" range, yet I have all the side effects of a low thyroid. I read up on what they called Wilson's Syndrom which they said was basically what you were talking about. It mentioned that sometimes a person's body can not convert T4 into T3 which causes the person all of these side effects. It said that the normal blood tests that they take to check your thyroid will not show this and the doctors will tell you that your thyroid is fine even though you continue to suffer with these side effects. If you look up Wilson's Syndrom on the web you can find info on it. The problem is finding a doctor that will take you seriously and do further testing. I've talked to my pdocs about it and they look at me like I'm stupid. I guess if it was my thyroid and my problems could be taken care of by helping my thyroid function properly, then I wouldn't need to be paying them their high fees and paying for all of these pysc meds that are not working. Lord knows they don't want this to happen. I have no faith in the pdocs and the system anymore and I know it's dangerous to tamper with your thyroid, but I've started trying thyroid meds on my own. And yes, I can tell a difference, a good one. The meds are dangerous and have to be started very slowly because they say they can have an effect on your heart, so I'm going by the books. It's a bad situation when you feel like you know your own body (at least somewhat) and that something just isn't adding up and no one will listen to you. My pdoc told me I need to stay off the internet and quit obsessing about looking up info on my illness. He says it will only make things worse. I didn't think trying to be more well informed would be a bad thing. That's one reason I come to this site, for more information that the pdocs can't or won't tell you. And Larry, I agree completely with the last line of your thread. Doctors have no problem with treating other illnesses permanetly, insullin resistance and all the other, but your right, they don't want to touch getting into thryoid supplimentation.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 31, 2006, at 17:19:06
In reply to Re: Thyroid Abnormal Test Results » Larry Hoover, posted by CEK on May 31, 2006, at 17:05:47
> Larry, I'm so glad you posted this. I've read up on this thyroid stuff for a while. My tests come out in "normal" range, yet I have all the side effects of a low thyroid. I read up on what they called Wilson's Syndrom which they said was basically what you were talking about.
I wish you'd have posted sooner.... <teasing>
I'd not have had to figure it out for a friend of mine. I didn't know it had a name.
Wilson's Syndrome. That sounds better that Hoover's Hypothesis, any day. There is a treatment protocol established, and a list of doctors who will treat it.
http://www.wilsonsthyroidsyndrome.com/Medical.htm
Thanks.
Lar
Posted by Phillipa on May 31, 2006, at 19:19:24
In reply to Re: Thyroid Abnormal Test Results » CEK, posted by Larry Hoover on May 31, 2006, at 17:19:06
I subscribed. Thanks Lar. Love Phillipa
Posted by CEK on June 1, 2006, at 8:26:20
In reply to Re: Thyroid Abnormal Test Results » Larry Hoover, posted by Phillipa on May 31, 2006, at 19:19:24
Dang, Larry you're good! No sooner had I submitted that post, you had already come up with the best website for Wilson's Temperature Syndrome! I meant to tell you this yesterday after I read your post, but I went to the site and was on it forever. I found a doctor on there that's in Huntsville, Al. It's the closest one I could find for my area, but no farther than my having to drive to Memphis to see my pdoc.( I drive 100miles there.) I'm going to call them today and see what they have to say. Thank you so much. Some of you that post on this site amaze me. There are so many that are so intelligent that give information to the rest of us. I sometimes find it hard to believe that those that do have some of the same problems that I have or some of the others have. I'll be searching the threads and run across one of these people's names and stop and read the thread and think," No way! They can't possibly be having these problems! This person helped me by responding and had so much information and seemed like they had it all going on!" I sometimes forget I guess that we're all here for the same reason and that even all of you posters that are very informed and very intelligent still suffer like the rest of us. I sincerely appreciate all the info that you all share. Some of you must feel like this is a part-time job, trying to teach people like me something. Does Dr. Bob keep you on the payroll to keep things going? (just kidding) Larry, without you and some of the others, a lot of us would be lost. Thank you, Cara
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 1, 2006, at 8:48:34
In reply to Re: Thyroid Abnormal Test Results Larry Hoover, posted by CEK on June 1, 2006, at 8:26:20
> Dang, Larry you're good!
Awwww, that's just what I needed.
> No sooner had I submitted that post, you had already come up with the best website for Wilson's Temperature Syndrome!
If Jeopardy allowed you to Google, I'd be rich.
> Thank you so much.
It is my pleasure.
> I sometimes forget I guess that we're all here for the same reason and that even all of you posters that are very informed and very intelligent still suffer like the rest of us.
Without Babble, sometimes, I could never be convinced my life hadn't been a complete and utter waste of oxygen.
Which takes me back to my comment, just prior to the latter one. It *is* MY pleasure.
Lar
Posted by ed_uk on June 2, 2006, at 16:57:38
In reply to Re: Thyroid Abnormal Test Results Larry Hoover » CEK, posted by Larry Hoover on June 1, 2006, at 8:48:34
Hi Lar
Why do you think doctors are so reluctant to prescribe T3? Almost no one is prescribed T3 in the UK, but millions of people take T4.
Ed
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 3, 2006, at 1:30:52
In reply to Re: Thyroid Abnormal Test Results, posted by sparky123 on May 31, 2006, at 4:14:46
> read the book "the thyroid solution" its one of best books on the subject. ive read about 10 books on thyroid. thats the best one and he discusses the link between bipolar and hypothyroidism. may be the local library has it.
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book, movie, or music without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 5, 2006, at 9:10:26
In reply to Re: Thyroid Abnormal Test Results Larry Hoover » Larry Hoover, posted by ed_uk on June 2, 2006, at 16:57:38
> Hi Lar
>
> Why do you think doctors are so reluctant to prescribe T3? Almost no one is prescribed T3 in the UK, but millions of people take T4.
>
> EdI have no idea. No idea at all. Other than dinosaurs are not extinct, I mean.
A person who is given a chance to give real feedback, how they feel, as part of the doctor's assessment, do much better than those who are prescribed "by the numbers". And those people end up costing us all a heck of a lot of money. It is a false economy to back away from the intensive monitoring required during T3/T4 titration, and instead choose to treat a chronic patient. And that's giving no weight to how the patient feels.
Lar
Posted by ed_uk on June 6, 2006, at 16:41:09
In reply to Re: Thyroid Abnormal Test Results Larry Hoover » ed_uk, posted by Larry Hoover on June 5, 2006, at 9:10:26
Hi Lar
>I have no idea. No idea at all.
I think it's because they said it was not necessary......and they refuse to go back on what they said!
Ed
This is the end of the thread.
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