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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Greif on May 15, 2006, at 21:41:46
In reply to Re: RobertDavid » BUCKEYE FANATIC, posted by RobertDavid on May 14, 2006, at 15:18:12
I have tapered off Zanax with Klon several times. Take it slow and its not bad however the undrlying anxiety returns and the last half miligram is very hard to give up. I now take 2 mg of K daily and will continue to until something better comes along. Zanax is great for occasional panic attacks. Try taking it for several years and you need 4 mg to equal what 1 did initially. K is much more benign and has little or no anti depressant effect. Many use SSRI with it. I have not felt the need to go beyond 2 sometimes 2.25 daily and an occasional Zanax when needed. I have friends who have taken a year to witghdraw from Z with Z and claimed that it was torture. Switch to Valiun or K and withdrawl is much easier. To take above 3-4 mg of Z daily is entering into the danger zone for post withdrawl syndrome.
Posted by RobertDavid on May 16, 2006, at 2:11:15
In reply to Re: RobertDavid, posted by Greif on May 15, 2006, at 21:41:46
> I have tapered off Zanax with Klon several times. Take it slow and its not bad however the undrlying anxiety returns and the last half miligram is very hard to give up. I now take 2 mg of K daily and will continue to until something better comes along. Zanax is great for occasional panic attacks. Try taking it for several years and you need 4 mg to equal what 1 did initially. K is much more benign and has little or no anti depressant effect. Many use SSRI with it. I have not felt the need to go beyond 2 sometimes 2.25 daily and an occasional Zanax when needed. I have friends who have taken a year to witghdraw from Z with Z and claimed that it was torture. Switch to Valiun or K and withdrawl is much easier. To take above 3-4 mg of Z daily is entering into the danger zone for post withdrawl syndrome.
Thanks for the impute. I was stable at 2mgs for years. Once was up to 3mgs, but found 2 worked as well and agitated my depression less. I do like the fact that it's easier to taper off of than the shorter acting benzos, but more importantly it has worked better for SAD. I do on occation take a small dose of xanax if I'm really having a bad day, but take only .25 on those occations which is rare.I'm aware that when you taper getting off the last .5mgs is the toughest. Right now I just want to go down a little then settle for a while. I think I'll sit tight at 1.5 and let my body adjust while still adjusting to EMSAM. If I continue to feel good I'll shoot for my next level of 1mg and sit there for a while and so on. I'm NO hurry to get off a drug that has help me with my anxiety greatly. My doc feels it's a 50-50 chance that EMSAM alone will work, but if not I just want to take the lowest dose of klonopin that's effective.
I did try to blend klonopin with all the SSRI's SNRI's and othe to be the "missing link" with treating the depressive side of my issues. Anxiety is by far my primary disorter, SAD in particular. Klonopin is a FABULOUS med, it least it has been for my SAD, I just needed something like EMSAM to lift my mood, clear my head and that is what has happened.
So regarless if I'm on klonpin or blending it with EMSAM I'm okay with it and happy to be functioning at such a high level for the first time. I think there will be many that find it's going to be a blend of EMSAM with a benzo that's the key, though those that are purely treating depression will probaby do well with just EMSAM as mono therapy. Well, that's my take on it anyway. Again, thanks for your impute. The more info and points of views the better. Rob
Posted by BUCKEYE FANATIC on May 16, 2006, at 7:07:17
In reply to Re: RobertDavid » Greif, posted by RobertDavid on May 16, 2006, at 2:11:15
I need an opinion please.
I have seen many people mention Klonopin on this site. Is this a good "substitute" for xanax? I know I have read past posts that xanax has its own particuliar properties that are unique to itself. I have always taken this to mean that NOTHING can take its place....especially if you have been on my high dose of 6 mgs per day for several years.
If there are some experienced xanax to Klonopin switchers out there, I would appreciate hearing from you. It sounds like Klonopin is easier to withdrawl from that xanax, however it seems as though there is no real substitute for xanax. Why is this????????? Whats makes xanax the Mac Daddy of all Benzo's that it is extremly hard to ween from????
BF
Posted by Greif on May 16, 2006, at 7:29:08
In reply to Re: RobertDavid » Greif, posted by RobertDavid on May 16, 2006, at 2:11:15
Rob, You started taking Lyrica the same time I did a few months back. I had very similar results and discontinued use after 30 days. I read your posts and they are very insightful. I only take 7.5 mg of Lex with the K and it is a bit uncomfortable. Without it though, I become somewhat depressed. My doctor will not prescribe Emsam or any in that group. He reserve these for last resort for those that do not respond to anuthing else and are severly depressed. I suffer from GAD so he feels this is not a good option. I have followed your Emsam "diary" with great interest. I am aware thought that common benefits from K do not correlate to any other meds. Good luck to you. You provide inspriration to many.
Posted by RobertDavid on May 16, 2006, at 12:20:38
In reply to Re: RobertDavid, posted by Greif on May 16, 2006, at 7:29:08
> Rob, You started taking Lyrica the same time I did a few months back. I had very similar results and discontinued use after 30 days. I read your posts and they are very insightful. I only take 7.5 mg of Lex with the K and it is a bit uncomfortable. Without it though, I become somewhat depressed. My doctor will not prescribe Emsam or any in that group. He reserve these for last resort for those that do not respond to anuthing else and are severly depressed. I suffer from GAD so he feels this is not a good option. I have followed your Emsam "diary" with great interest. I am aware thought that common benefits from K do not correlate to any other meds. Good luck to you. You provide inspriration to many.
Before I tried EMSAM I took Lexapro and basically all the other SSRI's to try to help with a mild depression. Konopin really helped the anxiety, but not depression that seems to be a side effect of having an anxiety disorer. I went from 5 to 10 mgs of Lexapro and for me I just kind of felt numb and it didn't really lift my mood.I had better luck with a small dose of Provigil, 25 to 50 mgs. I'd say that before EMSAM that was the best option I found to give me some energy and lift mood somewhat.
EMSAM has been the missing link for me. It has done everything I wanted the other meds to do. It just may be the combo of klonopin and EMSAM, working together to deal with both anxiety, depression and mental clarity.
Anyway, it seems there are a lot of doctors out there reluctant to treat patients with an MAOI including EMSAM and I think that's to bad. They're certainly not for everyone, but I feel if a patient has been though many other meds without luck it's an option that should be considered.
Good luck to you! Rob
Posted by RobertDavid on May 16, 2006, at 12:55:36
In reply to Opinions please....What Mkes Xanax So UNIQUE?, posted by BUCKEYE FANATIC on May 16, 2006, at 7:07:17
I originally tried xanax and switched to klonopin. It just worked better for me and was my doctors idea to switch. I like the idea of the long half life which has allowed me to take one dose at bedtime. I on rare occation take a small dose of xanax say .25 to .5 mgs if I'm going to hop on a plane and want a shorter acting addition to the klonopin. I've heard it's much easier to get off the longer benzo's than xanax and ativan. I think some actually switch straight from xanax to klonopin for the purpose of an easier taper. That said, benzo's are great med's for anxiety, work quick and are probably under utilized. Rob
Posted by Phillipa on May 16, 2006, at 19:52:38
In reply to Opinions please....What Mkes Xanax So UNIQUE?, posted by BUCKEYE FANATIC on May 16, 2006, at 7:07:17
Buckeye Fan I took xanax for years but 6mg is a very high dose. Usually that requires slowly adding either valium or klonopin and using xanax for breakthrough anxiety. Klonopin depessed me valium was better. But xanax only last around four hours and valium and klonopin all day and night. I once was in detox with a girl who was taking 6mg of xanax and drinking a whole bottle of Jack Daniels every day. And she didn't feel a thing from it. Well let me tell you when they took away the booze and xanax she was a total mess. I think she was on 80mg of valium and still in bed the whole day crying shaking etc. Myself I just switched from one to the other believing what my pdoc said that a beazo is a benzo. I'm starting to believe if you believe it the med will work. Love Phillipa
Posted by Greif on May 17, 2006, at 7:24:39
In reply to Opinions please....What Mkes Xanax So UNIQUE?, posted by BUCKEYE FANATIC on May 16, 2006, at 7:07:17
http://www.benzo.org.uk is a website by Heather Ahston. I disagree with much of her subjective content. However, she has spent many years as a proffesional withdrawing benzo users. There are some excellent charts indicating relative strengths and transition from short acting benzoz to valium. I do not endorse the site but there is a lot of info there. She is anti-benzo. I believe in the UK most physicians will not prescribe benzos unless someone has been on them for years. Most MDs in the US will not prescibe Zanax for long term use. The medical community is down on benzos due to overprescibing valium in the 70s and Zanax in the eighties. I took Zanax in the eighties and as time went on every 4 hours or so I would feel the need for more Zanax due to thr short half life. Klon stayes in your system and you dont have that roller coaster effect. I may take 1/4 mg of Z/week if needed. I would never return to it though for a primary benzo. K removes all my anxiety but does not provide the elevation that Zanax does. You may need to experimetn with SSRIs or other types of ADs to find the right combo. 6mg of Z IMO is too much. You can read Ashtons manual and draw your own conclusions.
Posted by BUCKEYE FANATIC on May 17, 2006, at 10:04:12
In reply to Re: Opinions please....What Mkes Xanax So UNIQUE?, posted by Greif on May 17, 2006, at 7:24:39
What a great Link Greif ! WOW~ This is exactley the type of site, information and support I have been looking for.Thank you so much!
I will keep you posted as to my progress and also my interaction with the Site Support Group.
BF
Posted by Greif on May 17, 2006, at 14:56:35
In reply to To Greif...thanks!!!!!!!!, posted by BUCKEYE FANATIC on May 17, 2006, at 10:04:12
You are welcome Buckeye (Iowa?). There is a link on site to her manual. Many Pdocs dont understand Xanax withrewl and try and reduce weekly. I weaned off Zanax with K and off Ativan with valium. My doctor was unaware of this method and was hesitant to prescibe valium. Keep us posted.
Posted by BUCKEYE FANATIC on May 17, 2006, at 15:27:34
In reply to Re: To Greif...thanks!!!!!!!!, posted by Greif on May 17, 2006, at 14:56:35
> You are welcome Buckeye (Iowa?). There is a link on site to her manual. Many Pdocs dont understand Xanax withrewl and try and reduce weekly. I weaned off Zanax with K and off Ativan with valium. My doctor was unaware of this method and was hesitant to prescibe valium. Keep us posted.
Will do.
And its The Ohio State University....:DI think I remember my MD saying one time that to try and get off xananx with valium would be "trading one addiction for another"...so I bet that's his mindset...Ill see.
And your right about another thing too...the MD who originally prescribed xanax tried to ween me off 4 years ago on a weekly basis. It was killingme and he wouldnt budge, and stopped returning my phone calls and refused to write me another prescription.
Not that I go from "doctor to doctor"...I have only had him and my current MD.
BF
Posted by Greif on May 17, 2006, at 23:09:40
In reply to Re: To Greif...thanks!!!!!!!!, posted by BUCKEYE FANATIC on May 17, 2006, at 15:27:34
I am a Gopher grad....how soon I forget the mascots that were once so important to me. I brought in the Ashton manual to get off Ativan. The doctor acted annoyed and did not want to read it but agreed to allow me the choice. Ativan and Zanax weekly reduction is torture. My ears would ring and sounds would resonate through my body and mind. i could not sleep or think straight. Just when I began to feel somewhat adjusted it was time for another taper. I would end up drinking a bottle of wine every night to get to sleep. This was when I was tapering off 3-5mg of z daily for 4 years. he swithced me to K and withdrawl was not as bad but I needed the alchohol to sleep. In hindsite it was unbearable and I was at the peak of my career. I disagree with Ashton that all benzos are bad. After years of abstinace from them and alchohol, I was unable to control GAD. I tried every mood stabalizer out there with poor results. Then the Atypicals which were the worst. So I now take daily 2mg of clonzapam and feel almost no anxiety. I have never felt the need to add to it. One useful item of info I learned here is the variation of the generics. Most Pharmacys carry Purepak as the generic. It is the cheapest for health insurance to pay for. At the advise of many on this board I switched to Tiva. Its like a different med. Lasts longer and has better effect. Pdoc needs to request it. It has a different compound than Purepak and I agree with former posters, it is far superior. I now lead a normal life and can concentrate and function fime. I am grateful for K and the benefits it provides. There is a support group connected to Ashton site that are anti benzo zeolots. I would suggest not wasting time with that group. They claim that short term benzo use destroyed their lifes. I suspect is was not the benzos. I do agree that Zanax should not be prescibed to those suffering mild anxiety. There are natural ways to deal with life. Those with chronic debilitating anxiety and phobias are different.
Best wishes to you
Posted by corafree on May 19, 2006, at 10:17:25
In reply to Re: Opinions please....What Mkes Xanax So UNIQUE?, posted by Greif on May 17, 2006, at 7:24:39
>K removes all my anxiety but does not provide the elevation that Zanax does.<
K never removed all anxiety for me, but the latter rings true.
Still on Valium 10mg 3x a day since NB same time last year. Can't/wouldn't risk even titrating down a bit. NB was as near death as I want to get.
So that 'stimulation' .. 'elevation' ... give me some of that (w/o sounding like a tweaker) because I'm socially stagnant. And I mean I don't 'even care'.
Too bad Xanax cannot be 'refined'.
Norpramin (old TCAD) working well for me. Also magnesium supplement ... working well. But still that one thing is missing. And, I don't care if that thing is replaced by a 'fake/phony stimulant' ... I need to move my a** and get off the couch!
I have 'no desire', 'no drive'; not talking sexually, but 'livingly'(notaword).
I won't just take away the Valium to throw myself into motivation caused by anxiety. It would motivate me right through the hospital doors!
How do I ask my P for a stimulant? Should I 'add a dash' of Xanax? Maybe Provigil?
Trying to get to the benzo UK site. Computer hot. Will check back.
Looked over the EMSAM threads and I don't want to run out and ask for that.
One things for sure ... it's spring ... works 'against' depression. (Everything is new but me! Yikes!) It's like Christmas that lasts three months!!!
I'm just touching base here as I prepare to see my P today.
bestwishes,cf
Posted by Squiggles on May 19, 2006, at 18:19:30
In reply to Opinions please....What Mkes Xanax So UNIQUE?, posted by BUCKEYE FANATIC on May 16, 2006, at 7:07:17
I did not find withdrawing from Xanax
that difficult (3 months for 2.0mg) after
quite a few years. It does tend to deplete
in strength if you take it a long time.
But, as a benzo for acute panic - i think
it is one of the best. That may be because
it has a short half life - 2 hrs.Klonopin is an amazing drug. I have spoken
to friends who have taken it too, and you just
don't feel it when you take it and you don't
build tolerance as fast as you do on Xanax
if taken daily. However, it is one of the hardest benzos to withdraw from because it is specially manufactured for epilepsy. It is a strong anti-convulsant.So Xanax is the best for the occasional panic attack or difficult psychological situation of anxiety, but Klonopin is good for general anxiety, muscle pains, fits, and it is given to bipolars.
Squiggles
Posted by KarenRB53 on August 28, 2007, at 9:25:14
In reply to Anyone take xanax or benzos for a long time?, posted by blueberry on May 10, 2006, at 20:19:32
> The few times I have felt very well were with various combinations of meds, but it was always xanax that brought it all together. Xanax was the missing ingredient. It really woke up prozac and zyprexa and made me feel completely normal. Even though I always thought it would be a dopamine med that would resolve my apathetic anhedonic lack of joy lack of motivation symptoms, it was xanax that did it. It did the same when added to 5htp with zyprexa.
>
> But I only took it for a week. I asked myself if I was just experiencing a xanax high. My answer was no. I just felt normal. I was afraid of addiction and tolerance and poopout, so I never continued. Now I'm thinking about it.
>
> Has anyone used xanax for a long time? I mean, like for years? Any benzo users out there, do you think someone could take xanax and stay in the 1mg to 3mg range for years?Do you still take Xanax with Prozac and if so, what dose of Prozac do you take?
Thanks, Karen
Posted by KarenRB53 on August 28, 2007, at 9:27:30
In reply to Re: Anyone take xanax or benzos for a long time? » blueberry, posted by FredPotter on May 11, 2006, at 0:10:06
> I've taken benzos on and off for 42 years. Xanax for about 12 years. My X use goes up and down with my mental health. There's no inexorable rise in use (in my case). You use the word "high". I don't get a high from X, never have. I think we should be careful using words like that as it encourages the anti-benzo brigade
Hi Fred: Do you still take Xanax and do you take it with any other meds or just by itself? My pdoc wants me to go on Xanax as no antidepressants seem to work for me.
Thanks, Karen
Posted by clearskies on August 28, 2007, at 9:45:23
In reply to Re: Anyone take xanax or benzos for a long time?, posted by KarenRB53 on August 28, 2007, at 9:27:30
Hi Karen, I've been on a very low dose of Xanax (between .5mg and 2mg a day during crisis) for over 5 years now. I did wean off - and the anxiety was right there, waiting for me, when I did - but the low dose, taken in .25mg increments, keeps the heebie jeebies at bay for me. It works quickly. Presently, I take Remeron 30mg and since I've taken that the anxiety level in general has decreased a huge amount, so for me the adjunct antidepressant makes a big difference as to how much Xanax will be effective for my anxiety. Previously, I'd been on Cymbalta, and before that Effexor and Wellbutrin.
For me, anxiety worsens as the day progresses, developing to a crescendo about 3pm. It helps a lot to have a daily meditation practice to get my breathing under control, but knowing that I've got the Xanax to take when my body needs it is what really saves the day for me.
I'm not saying that if I didn't have it that I'd crack, but I know that I would not be able to function at as high a level as I do without it. My pdoc has *no* problem with me taking this low dosage for a sustained period as I haven't developed a tolerance for it.
ClearSkies
Posted by jhj on August 29, 2007, at 0:09:17
In reply to Re: Anyone take xanax or benzos for a long time?, posted by KarenRB53 on August 28, 2007, at 9:25:14
Hi Karen
I have been taking benzo for almost three years.I was on xanax(alprazolam) for four months too.Then,i was on other benzo,diazepam,clonazepam,chlordiazepoxide and currently i am on clobazm.I have never felt addicted to it though.It is different thing that no benzo has reduced my social anxiety or GAD by even small percent.They have been totally ineffective.I took fluoxetine 20 mg with alprazolam for four months. Currenty i am taking sertraline(zoloft)50 mg with clobazam 20 mg.Thanks.
Posted by RobertDavid on August 29, 2007, at 1:36:16
In reply to Re: Anyone take xanax or benzos for a long time?, posted by jhj on August 29, 2007, at 0:09:17
I have taken klonopin (currently 1.5 mgs) for SAD & GAD for 13 years. It's the only med that has worked. It continues to work well particularly for SAD. I took as high as 3mgs, but have settled in at 1.5mgs and am functioning very well. Prior to klonopin I was hardly able to leave the house. When I first started taking klonopin I was discuraged until I got up over 1mg as the smaller dose didn't help. I suspect some fail on benzo's because they never take a dose that is high enough for them. Just my take. Best of luck......
Posted by KarenRB53 on August 29, 2007, at 9:06:44
In reply to Re: Anyone take xanax or benzos for a long time?, posted by jhj on August 29, 2007, at 0:09:17
I just can't seem to get past the bumping into doors phase or maybe I haven't been taking it long enough. I started at .25mg then up to 0.5 and then up to 1mg which puts me right out within 20 mins. I took 0.5 last night before bed and this morning I'm so hung over and feel like my head is full of cotton and very unsteady on my feet. How long does this last and maybe its just not for me. I took Ativan along with AD for about 5 yrs. Just 1/2mg in a.m. and 1 mg p.m and it never affected me this way. Maybe its because I'm not on any AD with the Xanax. I don't know what to do.
Karen
Posted by Phillipa on August 29, 2007, at 20:26:49
In reply to Re: Anyone take xanax or benzos for a long time?, posted by RobertDavid on August 29, 2007, at 1:36:16
Robert hi nice to see you and hear you are well Phillipa your friend forever
Posted by Fivefires on August 29, 2007, at 22:44:04
In reply to Anyone take xanax or benzos for a long time?, posted by blueberry on May 10, 2006, at 20:19:32
> The few times I have felt very well were with various combinations of meds, but it was always xanax that brought it all together. Xanax was the missing ingredient. It really woke up prozac and zyprexa and made me feel completely normal..
Prozac increased my anxiety and that's actually when I began Xanax.
>Even though I always thought it would be a dopamine med that would resolve my apathetic anhedonic lack of joy lack of motivation symptoms, it was xanax that did it. It did the same when added to 5htp with zyprexa.>
Xanax, as opposed to Valium, for example, is more activating. Valium is more sedating. The prior, for me, anyway.
> But I only took it for a week. I asked myself if I was just experiencing a xanax high. My answer was no. I just felt normal. I was afraid of addiction and tolerance and poopout, so I never continued. Now I'm thinking about it.>If you could just put something down like this why think of picking it up again?
> Has anyone used xanax for a long time?
Yep, me.
>I mean, like for years?
Yep.
Any benzo users out there, do you think someone could take xanax and stay in the 1mg to 3mg range for years?
It's possible for some people I'd think.
I was on 1/4mg then went to 1/2mg then went to 1mg, probably over 10yrs.
Seems though, after reaching 1mg, increasing began at a more rapid rate.
Although, some real bad life experiences came into play around the same time period, so I'm sure this prob' speaks to my needs increasing.
Maybe 'becoming dependent' depends upon your 'personality type'.
Benzodiazepines are not on the formulary for Medicare Part D. Those poor people. I worry peeps will experience disasters in their lives and have no means for relief :( ...
I've never understood people who say 'yeah it hurts really bad but I'm just going to tough it out'.
Guess you can figure out my personality type.
5f
Posted by Phillipa on August 29, 2007, at 23:28:04
In reply to Re: Anyone take xanax or benzos for a long time?, posted by Fivefires on August 29, 2007, at 22:44:04
FF like millions of others. Need them to function at best capacity. No need to keep increasing as your anxiety goes done so does your dose naturally. You just don't need as much. Phillipa
Posted by Fivefires on August 29, 2007, at 23:42:48
In reply to Re: Anyone take xanax or benzos for a long time? » Fivefires, posted by Phillipa on August 29, 2007, at 23:28:04
Good point. Only one AD, Effexor-XR, lessened anxiety, and at this time I was able to 'decrease' benzo. Think this is what you mean Phillipa. Also, ups and downs of life also made a diff' in my need. (Long time since a real good up!)
5f
Posted by KarenRB53 on August 30, 2007, at 8:02:23
In reply to Re: Anyone take xanax or benzos for a long time?, posted by Fivefires on August 29, 2007, at 23:42:48
> Good point. Only one AD, Effexor-XR, lessened anxiety, and at this time I was able to 'decrease' benzo. Think this is what you mean Phillipa. Also, ups and downs of life also made a diff' in my need. (Long time since a real good up!)
>
> 5fDid the EffexorXR work for your depression as well as the anxiety? Are you still taking the EffexorXR?
Karen
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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