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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Pete C. on September 29, 2003, at 13:04:51
Hello,
I am an adult in college taking 30mg 3 times a day. I recently read an online article saying that studies have found that adderall can destroy some dopimine producors in the brain. Has anyone else read this or know any more about this. The article wasn't clear because it was translated from german. It also said there is a suppliment you could take to help prevent it. Anyone out there know what this might be?
Pete
Posted by utopizen on September 29, 2003, at 14:55:11
In reply to Adderall and long term brain damage, posted by Pete C. on September 29, 2003, at 13:04:51
If you're a monkey, yes.
Are you a monkey?
Then you have no worries.
Lots of things would have killed me by now if I was a lab monkey...
Adderall's not a new drug, it's been out since the 70's, and is simply a mixture of amphetamines that have been out for decades before that. In 1966, over 8 billion amphetamine tablets were produced.
If there were a problem, it might have been figured out by now. It's only the most studied drug to treat mental illnesses, after all...
Of course, there's lots and lots of money to be made if you are a researcher who wants to manipulate test results by using monkeys. Secure funding by determining outcomes. Great way to make a buck these days, people will believe anything you tell them, even if it's about a drug millions have used over several decades.
The basic reason is that because stimulants don't have a weight-dependent relationship, it's nearly impossible to know if you're giving a lab animal an excessive dose or not... it's simply a made up estimate. It's not even possible to predict how much is needed for a child, let alone another species!
Posted by stjames on September 29, 2003, at 16:14:55
In reply to Adderall and long term brain damage, posted by Pete C. on September 29, 2003, at 13:04:51
I recently read an online article saying that studies have found that adderall can destroy some dopimine producors in the brain.
Then kindly provide a link to this article so we may read a discuss it.
Posted by loolot on September 29, 2003, at 20:11:53
In reply to Re: Adderall and long term brain damage, posted by stjames on September 29, 2003, at 16:14:55
From some posts on this board it sounds like the body becomes dependant on adderall. Some people dont have this probem. I suspect that if one went off the adderall then after a while your dopamine system would go back to normal.
Posted by stjames on September 29, 2003, at 23:03:41
In reply to Re: Adderall and long term brain damage, posted by loolot on September 29, 2003, at 20:11:53
I suspect that if one went off the adderall then after a while your dopamine system would go back to normal.
So far we have no proof of dopamine system damage,
as a poster just saying "I read this somewhere"
is at best, hearsay.In any case, we do have over 50 years of people taking amphetamine.
Posted by Pete C. on September 30, 2003, at 3:17:36
In reply to Re: Adderall and long term brain damage, posted by stjames on September 29, 2003, at 23:03:41
This was a medical report from germany that i found online and translated. I tried to find something similar in English but the response I got from a medical professor was that companies are making billions on this drug so you're doubtful to see negitive opinions about it.
The article wasn't about low dopimine level it was that over time Adderall has been proven to strip the protective coating off dopime receptors even though adderall brings the dopime levels up to normal if one was to go off adderall at a point in their life they would find it harder later because dopamine receptors would be damaged. But it listed a suppliment you could take that replaces the low chemical in the brain for the dopimine receptor coating thus protecting them while taking adderall. This was in german and didn't translate. I found the page randomly and can't get back to it. Since it was on a school computer the history gets wipes at night when they automatically reformat and install the OS over again. (To prevent changes that could effect other classes or illegal programs from being on for long term).
Posted by stjames on September 30, 2003, at 13:11:22
In reply to Re: Adderall and long term brain damage, posted by Pete C. on September 30, 2003, at 3:17:36
> This was a medical report from germany that i found online and translated.
Then post the link, please. We speak many langs.
here.
Posted by utopizen on September 30, 2003, at 17:05:26
In reply to Re: Adderall and long term brain damage, posted by Pete C. on September 30, 2003, at 3:17:36
I'm very skeptical about why the study cites Adderall over, say, Benzedrine (although it's not marketed anymore) which is closer to it or Dexedrine, or why Dexedrine might not be so damaging. Adderall's just an amphetamine, it's a little unique, not that unique...
And Shire is NOT making billions from a drug with a generic competitor, that's ludicrious. I never understood why pharmacies even bother to carry brand names, how many patients actually ask for them? They have to go out of their way to ask their doc to write for a brand name. And for me, it's the difference between a $5 and $30 co-pay. It would all be placebo if I did get a brand name, the difference.
Anyway, Germany does not lead the world in psychopharma, neuroimaging isn't that advanced, and they can just barely tell if you have HOLES in your head at this point when it comes to neuroimaging. If they are trained enough to catch holes. Entire holes. You're talking about a slight chance of a certain dopamine receptor being affected by a certain brand of a certain mixture of amphetamine salts. And they then can also prove that a certain supplement is protective against this certain damage? Um, yeah, I'm certainly skeptical. Sounds like the professor is a quack who's paranoid of big pharma.
> This was a medical report from germany that i found online and translated. I tried to find something similar in English but the response I got from a medical professor was that companies are making billions on this drug so you're doubtful to see negitive opinions about it.
>
> The article wasn't about low dopimine level it was that over time Adderall has been proven to strip the protective coating off dopime receptors even though adderall brings the dopime levels up to normal if one was to go off adderall at a point in their life they would find it harder later because dopamine receptors would be damaged. But it listed a suppliment you could take that replaces the low chemical in the brain for the dopimine receptor coating thus protecting them while taking adderall. This was in german and didn't translate. I found the page randomly and can't get back to it. Since it was on a school computer the history gets wipes at night when they automatically reformat and install the OS over again. (To prevent changes that could effect other classes or illegal programs from being on for long term).
Posted by Pete C. on September 30, 2003, at 19:57:19
In reply to Re: Adderall and long term brain damage, posted by utopizen on September 30, 2003, at 17:05:26
It always amuses me how ignorant people can get when they respond to questions other people have. In the instance where my simple question was if anyone knew of a study, and or information where they found Adderall causes brain damage I get garbage from someone who provides no proof to disprove my question and picks apart the details of my message which has no impact on my original question. After a long search i found the medical journal articles relating to what I wanted thanks to everyone that offered SUPPORT. And because Adderall and the Generic brand have NOT been sufficenlty tested to see if the results are the same I am on only Brand Adderall because the Generic caused intense facal ticks that wouldn't stop untill I switched back to the brand name.
Brain Res 1997 Aug 29;767(1):172-5"...methylphenidate, unlike amphetamine, lacks dopamine neurotoxic potential, and strongly suggest that dopamine efflux, although perhaps necessary, is not sufficient for the expression of amphetamine-induced dopamine neurotoxicity. (Amphetamines like Dexedrine and Adderall have the potential to cause nerve damage in the brain.)
Posted by stjames on September 30, 2003, at 20:58:23
In reply to Re: Adderall and long term brain damage, posted by Pete C. on September 30, 2003, at 19:57:19
I just requested that you provide the research you are conserned about so we may all read and digest it. Since you did not seem to understand it the best way to help you is to post the research so we can help you understand.
Posted by Pete C. on October 1, 2003, at 1:58:58
In reply to Re: Adderall and long term brain damage, posted by stjames on September 30, 2003, at 20:58:23
I appoligise stjames if you assumed I ment you. No I found nothing aganst me in your post.
Posted by loolot on October 1, 2003, at 10:42:57
In reply to Re: Adderall and long term brain damage, posted by Pete C. on October 1, 2003, at 1:58:58
I read on another board, posted by a very well educated person (sort of like the Ame Sans Vie of the other board! :-)) that stims like adderall can damage your dopamine system by completely depleting the storage, however, some people's storage systems are so stingy that this doesnt matter/happen, and maybe thats why some people respond well to adderall. I also read that if this does happen the brain regenerates after withdrawal.
Of course, this is still just a vague theory, but it sounded interesting to me...
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 1, 2003, at 17:56:05
In reply to Re: Adderall and long term brain damage, posted by Pete C. on September 30, 2003, at 19:57:19
> It always amuses me how ignorant people can get... I get garbage from someone...
You may not find some responses helpful, but please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Thanks,
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies, and complaints about posts, should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration; otherwise, they may be deleted.
Posted by utopizen on October 2, 2003, at 3:20:27
In reply to Re: Adderall and long term brain damage, posted by Pete C. on September 30, 2003, at 19:57:19
Pete, I think it's pretty clear here: I was referring to a study that you were referring to, and that study was not conducted by you.
Picking apart a study you're not associated with is not picking apart an argument of yours, it's picking apart an argument of another's. You may agree or disagree with that, but I didn't even think to assume if you did or not. I was directly referring to the study, and the prinicipal investigator of the study.
I did not offer specific support that you happened to be looking for, but I also didn't offer specific statements that were aimed at you in any way.
This is a perfect example of how things can be looked at a certain angle, and the result is a burden of emotion that's not necessary to have.
We create all of what we ever see, and no one can mediate that for us. I can't make you feel unsupported, or supported. Yet you can have yourself believe you are either supported or unsupported by another person. And the result has far more to do with how your outlook is than the person giving/not giving support.
Of course, my doc use to always say "that's not rational" to me, because he was straight-forward about the reasons behind how mental illnesses manifest themselves, but I think you may find that unsupportive (but in my case, I felt very supported and cared for because someone was pointing out to me when I thought irrationally-- so it's all how one differs in their outlook).
Hope you understand, and take care! I do want to support your concerns, I wouldn't have responded if I didn't. Being supportive doesn't restrict someone to simply validating everything another says, I find the most support from others when they tell me arguments that oppose my ideas. It helps me get a broader perspective on things. It's healthy.
Posted by Kacy on October 2, 2003, at 18:41:08
In reply to Re: Adderall and long term brain damage » Pete C., posted by utopizen on October 2, 2003, at 3:20:27
Posted by km on May 2, 2006, at 14:08:42
In reply to Re: Adderall and long term brain damage » Pete C., posted by utopizen on October 2, 2003, at 3:20:27
I took adderall for 1 year while working construction and gradually started losing my mind. i thought people could read my mind and felt extremely nervous. i stopped taking it in 2004 and to this day i still feel crazy and nervous. it has slimmed down very little. mind you i was a completely normal outgoing kid until i took it. i can tell you that the study on the dopamine censor damage is probably true sense im living proof of this study.
Posted by scatterbrained on May 6, 2006, at 4:10:36
In reply to Adderall and long term brain damage, posted by Pete C. on September 29, 2003, at 13:04:51
Absolutely adderall can cause damage, it's essentially speed at a lower dose and speed has been shown to cause brain damage and deplete dopamine levels.
Posted by km on May 9, 2006, at 22:19:35
In reply to Re: Adderall and long term brain damage, posted by scatterbrained on May 6, 2006, at 4:10:36
would you think that over time,sir,it could possibly get better or mabye its permanent. i have heard some fritening things about how it reorganizes your brain structure.
Posted by idolamine on May 9, 2006, at 23:05:57
In reply to Adderall and long term brain damage, posted by Pete C. on September 29, 2003, at 13:04:51
I'm suprised no one's posted this yet. Adderall increases extracellular dopamine, as it's supposed to. When this dopamine is eliminated, I believe, by catecholdecarboxylase, it produces chemicals that can oxidize, and then damage, dopamine neurons. It's been a long time since I looked into this, so double check me on ncbi.nlm.nih.gov. Vitamin E and C may help this, though I don't know if vitamin C is permeable to the blood-brain barrier. Also, excitation of dopmaine neurons produces glutamate- which is one of, if the not the main, excitatory chemical produced in the brain. Memantine, or brand name namenda, is a drug used currently for alzheimer's syndrome that normalizes glutamate.
To be honest (I was on adderall at a much higher dosage for a few years), I wouldn't worry. If the adderall is helping you with school, and if you can ask those around you if your behaviour is concerning, and it's not, I'd personally stick with it until school's done and then consider stopping it just to be sure. Just don't go over 40mg if you've just started it and it seems to stop working. James
> Hello,
> I am an adult in college taking 30mg 3 times a day. I recently read an online article saying that studies have found that adderall can destroy some dopimine producors in the brain. Has anyone else read this or know any more about this. The article wasn't clear because it was translated from german. It also said there is a suppliment you could take to help prevent it. Anyone out there know what this might be?
>
>
> Pete
Posted by km on May 10, 2006, at 14:29:57
In reply to Re: Adderall and long term brain damage, posted by idolamine on May 9, 2006, at 23:05:57
20mg was mine i guess thats all it took. listen, if you start feeling like spirits are possesing people to talk to you pertaining to what you are thinking and/or God is revealing something to you. stop taking it.thats what happen to me i quit my job and started pursing God and what he wanted. Now, i work at ups and am no longer in the ministry.
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