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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by ed_uk on May 2, 2006, at 16:09:45
In reply to Re: Is that what you think it is?, posted by linkadge on May 2, 2006, at 15:53:12
Hi Link
>I've heard it suggested that the antidepressant effects of tianeptine are downplayed due to how the drug might affect people's preception of psychiatry's validity.
IMO, psychiatry would prefer it if tianepine didn't exist. I guess most docs haven't heard of it anyway.
Ed
Posted by linkadge on May 2, 2006, at 18:34:35
In reply to Re: Is that what you think it is? » linkadge, posted by ed_uk on May 2, 2006, at 16:09:45
I know the antidepressant effects of negitive ions are under increasing investigation, esp for SAD. Some researchers claim that negative ions actually lower brain serotonin in some way, some propose though an increase in monoamine oxidase activity.
You can google, serotonin + "negative ions"
Linkadge
Posted by vale on May 4, 2006, at 14:14:23
In reply to Do you know tianeptne?, posted by foreigner on April 29, 2006, at 14:54:16
> I have been using it for a week(not so long) but It helped my depression. Can this continue(or be much effective) and can I get better with this drug?I haven't experianced this kind of improvement with other drugs.
> What do you think about tianeptine? Has anyone experienced it? What doses should I take it?
> I should say that I don't believe psyciatrists because of some unsuccessful therapy experiments. My life has gotten worse time to time. I lost a lot of things because of this sucking depression. I am very near to get sack from the college(I was very successful student before depression).I can't do anything and I have no motivation. Maybe this drug is my last chance. Has anyone experienced it? Can I manage to get rid of this sucking disease?
> Thanks.I've used Tianeptine before, used it for around 6 months. It's another one of those French drugs that "work" without anyone knowing exactly it's precise mode of action. I think I gave it a fair trial and could note the following.
Advantages: Mildly serenic, Mildly mood stabilizing/ food tasted better/Increased libido/ Lessening of typical major depressive symptoms/Easy to stop using( taper down over 3-4 days only.
Disadvantages: Freaky nightmares/ Headache/ occasional distressing vivid thoughts/ Apathy setting in over time. Side effects lessen in intensity after a few weeks of continued use.
Dosages 2or 3 tabs of 12.5mg per day.
Can be combined with Modiodal ( Provigil), to combat the apathy side effect.This drug also takes the edge of mild benzodiazepine withdrawal and is used also for treating alcoholics.
All in all not a bad med. Take heart, hang in there, your depression will clear over time.
Posted by foreigner on May 6, 2006, at 12:22:56
In reply to Re: Do you know tianeptne?, posted by vale on May 4, 2006, at 14:14:23
Thanks all.
I agree with you Vale.I experienced most of your experiences too. As you said I have 'occasional vivid thoughts' and 'incresed libido'. But most of the time It is a mood stabilizer. It doesn't allow you to have edge emotions.
I haven't nightmares but I have stupid dreams.
Have you managed to clear your depression. Do we have a chance:)Because I started to believe It is my genetic to have depression.
Good luck
Posted by psychobot5000 on May 6, 2006, at 13:50:58
In reply to Do you know tianeptne?, posted by foreigner on April 29, 2006, at 14:54:16
Hi,
Here's what I know about tianeptine.
I recommend Tianeptine above other drugs. In my experience, it has the same positive effects on mood and anxiety as a good antidepressant, without the negatives. I experienced everything from insomnia to sleepiness to upset stomach to dry mouth to racing heart with other antidepressants, and they made life difficult to live.
Tianeptine seems to cause no side-effects at all at the normal dosage. At high doses it gave me mild dry mouth, but nothing else.
Things to know:
Normal dose, 12.5mg, 3 times a day, for a total of 37.5mg daily. 3x a day dosing is probably necessary, because this drug passes through your body quite quickly. One study I saw suggested that 75mg per day was more effective, but in my case the high dosage was no better, with the addition of mild drymouth as a side-effect.Tianeptine has fewer interactions with other drugs, because the liver processes it differently. It does not undergo 'first pass metabolism.' This may mean it's easier on the liver than other drugs, and can be better combined with them. HOWEVER, since there is less information about Tianeptine available than we'd like, drug combinations are risky.
Tianeptine's mechanism of action is unknown, but it does directly increase serotonin reuptake--thus reducin serotonin supply. It is worth noting, that Tianeptine will be an effective antidepressant in patients who also are aided by serotinin reuptake inhibitors (when taken separately, not together. They would probably cancel each other out), like prozac, zoloft and etc. These drugs work in the opposite manner.
Who knows why. But once again, tianeptine has far fewer side effects, or none at all.
For whatever reason, it has not been studied as well as the mainstream drugs, and so it's something of a wildcard. However, some researchers suggest that its effects are less powerful than other drugs. In my experience this was not true.
Also, the limited data available suggests that Tianeptine elevates mood in between 75 and 80 % of depressed patients who take it. These are very good numbers, when compared to other drugs. It's reputation for having very slight, or nonexistent side-effects would seem to make it an excellent candidate to be marketet widely. It's anyone's guess why it hasn't been, though it's pharmacalogical cousin amineptine (removed from international use in 1999) was found to cause liver damage (very rarely).If you are going to take a drug, I recommend it above others. It seems almost criminal to me that it's not available in many developed nations, such as parts of Europe or, I believe, the US.
Posted by psychobot5000 on May 6, 2006, at 14:06:39
In reply to Re: Do you know tianeptine?, posted by psychobot5000 on May 6, 2006, at 13:50:58
Additional advantages of Tianeptine:
This drug is, in my experience, an excellent pain reliever (SSRIs do the same thing, but the mechanism of action is unknown). Many depressed patients experience an increase in 'somatic' and other types of pain, often poorly localized and of unknown cause. Some antidepressants help, and some don't. Tianeptine helps.
Also, alcohol should not be consumed while taking most antidepressants, and when I did so on SSRIs, 'atypical' antidepressants, and tricyclics, it always lowered by mood and made me apathetic the morning and day after. The one exception was Tianeptine.
In my experience, you can drink modest amounts of alcohol with Tianeptine, with no noticeable interaction between the two. I've never tried drinking more.
Psychobot
Posted by Pfinstegg on May 7, 2006, at 0:17:44
In reply to Re: Do you know tianeptine?, posted by psychobot5000 on May 6, 2006, at 14:06:39
I like tianeptine a lot. I haven't had a single side effect that I'm aware of in a year and a half of taking it.. For me, it's a moderate anti-depressant, but a very good mood-stabilizer. It also helps a lot in reducing anxiety.
It's a little scary taking it, because it's not marketed in the US, and the pdocs don't know about it. From what I've been able to learn on-line, in addition to enhancing serotonin uptake, it acts to block the cortisol stress cascade, not where it begins in the hypothalamus, but where it ends at the cellular level where cortisol harms neurons in the hippocampus (and elsewhere).
The single most impressive thing I learned about it (from a study at the German Primate Center) was that it blocks the harmful effects of separating baby tree shrews from their mothers. If the little newborns are separated from their mothers for three hours in the first day of life, they will do very poorly as adults on the Forced Swim test as adults- the standard animal model of depression. But, if they are given tianeptine before being separated, they do just as well on that test as the control babies who were never separated. This seems to be additional evidence that the harmful effects of stress are somehow prevented.
Almost every neurobiology researcher here in the states who mentions it says favorable things about tianeptine. I am assuming that it's not marketed here because, having been used for over ten years in Europe, there is no patent to be acquired, and not much money to be made by any drug company.
Posted by Declan on May 7, 2006, at 1:07:13
In reply to Re: Do you know tianeptine?, posted by Pfinstegg on May 7, 2006, at 0:17:44
Hey everyone
I remember someone having insomnia on tianeptine. Is this anyone else's experience?
TIA
Declan
Posted by Racer on May 7, 2006, at 1:59:42
In reply to Re: Do you know tianeptine?, posted by Pfinstegg on May 7, 2006, at 0:17:44
> I like tianeptine a lot. I haven't had a single side effect that I'm aware of in a year and a half of taking it..
Pfin, how do you get it? I've read enough about it to want to add it to my list of options -- and sooner, rather than later. At my next appointment, I want to bring it up with my pdoc, but I'd like to know how/if I would be able to get a supply if she's interested in trying it.
For the record -- I will NOT be trying anything without my doctor's consent and involvement, and will certainly have a prescription for anything I take. But are there forms to fill out? Hoops to jump through? Men in trenchcoats to meet in dark alleys? You can babblemail me if you'd prefer.
Thanks!
Posted by Pfinstegg on May 7, 2006, at 9:11:19
In reply to Re: Do you know tianeptine?, posted by Racer on May 7, 2006, at 1:59:42
When I mentioned that it's a bit scary to take a drug that's not marketed here in the US, it's because I have had to educate my pdoc about it, and be the one taking full responsibility. The Pdoc I have has copies of many of the articles I've found, and has become a solid supporter of my taking it- it's just that it has to be entirely my decision.
I don't want to run the risk of a PBC, too much, so I'll just describe the process generally. No prescription is required, but no insurance company will reimburse you, either, for an unapproved drug. So I just order it online, using my credit card, from the same company from whom I order fish oil and B vitamins. It takes just a minute or two, and doesn't require any more information than if you were ordering a favorite pair of slacks from LLBean! You can easily find the two companies which market it online by a simple google.
The cost, for three doses per day of 12.5 mg. is about $3.00. It would be much nicer to be able to be reimbursed by insurance, but it is SO good to take a medication which appears to be so non-toxic, and which really helps. As I mentioned, for me, anyway, it acts as more of a mood-stabilizer and anti-anxiety agent. I still do get into depressed moods, but they are more moderate, and easier to get out of. As I have an Ego State Disorder related to PTSD and abuse, my mood has a lot to do with which ego-state I'm in, and these can change in a second. I am working as hard as I can, in my therapy, to integrate my ego states better, or at least to recognize better where 'things are coming from". That IS a slow process! But I am so pleased to have such a non-toxic medication to help me avoid going to emotional extremes all the time. There have been a few reports of abuse of tianeptine from the European literature, but they have occurred in people with histories of severe prior substance abuse. I haven't noticed any need to increase the dosage, or take it more frequently- it's just good as it is.
Maybe the best approach, if you would like to try it, is to gather up some of the articles from Medscape/Medline, as well as some of the comments about it made by Bruce McEwen of Rockefeller University and Robert Sapolsky of Stanford. They are both so highly respected in neuroscience that any pdoc would probably listen to their views thoughtfully. Once you have your pdoc's support, you could go ahead and order it without feeling so uncertain or alone in your decision.
Although I haven't been able to find much written about it, I'm assuming that it's better not to take it with SSRI's, SNRI's or MAOI's. It apparently acts completely opposite to the way they all do- enhancing uptake rather than blocking it. Another thing which I've also found helpful is to take Cytomel, rather than Synthroid, to keep my TSH below 0.5. It has a definite anti-depressive action- for me. Those two are all I'm willing to take now.
Good luck if you decide to try, Racer! I'd love to know how it turns out for you.
Pfin
Posted by Pfinstegg on May 7, 2006, at 9:17:03
In reply to Tianeptine and insomnia, posted by Declan on May 7, 2006, at 1:07:13
Not at all. It has helped me sleep more normally
Posted by Declan on May 7, 2006, at 14:28:36
In reply to Re: Tianeptine and insomnia » Declan, posted by Pfinstegg on May 7, 2006, at 9:17:03
I read that it had that effect in one of the studies, from one of the links provided here.
Posted by linkadge on May 7, 2006, at 15:17:58
In reply to Re: Tianeptine and insomnia » Pfinstegg, posted by Declan on May 7, 2006, at 14:28:36
I was separated from my mother when I was about a year old for almost a year, when she decided to go shopping around psychiatric hospitals.
Maybe I'm just like a shrew.
Linkadge
Posted by Declan on May 7, 2006, at 15:45:40
In reply to Re: Tianeptine and insomnia, posted by linkadge on May 7, 2006, at 15:17:58
Me too (nurses, boarding schools). It's another thing to think of.
Posted by linkadge on May 7, 2006, at 19:19:30
In reply to Re: Tianeptine and insomnia » linkadge, posted by Declan on May 7, 2006, at 15:45:40
Its always possble that things like that can trigger long term changes in behavior.
Its just like our first dog. The first dog we had, my brother and I teased and maltreated. It turned out very neurotic.
The second dog we treated well, and its a normal dog.
Linkadge
Posted by Declan on May 17, 2006, at 17:37:49
In reply to Re: Tianeptine and insomnia » Declan, posted by linkadge on May 7, 2006, at 19:19:30
Started yesterday. No sense of pharmacological insult. Calming, like someone said 'mildly serenic'. Easypeasy so far. Odd that it feels like I imagine seratonin things to feel like ie it takes the edge off.
Posted by Pfinstegg on May 17, 2006, at 21:42:32
In reply to Tianeptine, posted by Declan on May 17, 2006, at 17:37:49
That's good to hear! From what I've read, we are no different from any other mammal, and the tree shrews, although tiny, are a sort of proto-primate. Their brains and ours have an absolute need for a good mother in order to prevent the stress cascade and eventual depression. The more recently trained therapists are getting much more training in this vital fact, and are utilizing their right hemispheres to get into close contact with our own, just as good mothers do.. Words and interpretatons are relied upon so much less than non-verbal "implicit relational knowing and learning"- really giving our right hemispheres, and even deeper structures, the chance to grow more connections, and develop self-soothing and calming abilities which allow us to feel loving, happy and well. Words are of course used- but they now really come last, after the right hemisphere work is done enough! This growth can happen to a person at any time- all is not lost if it didn't happen when you were a baby. It can be so wonderful to find a therapist who is "relational" and attachment-oriented, because this is what they do.
Posted by Declan on May 20, 2006, at 14:34:38
In reply to Re: Tianeptine » Declan, posted by Pfinstegg on May 17, 2006, at 21:42:32
I have developed a normal sleep pattern, 7 hours for heavens sake, up once in the night. This is the best sleep I have had in a decade. Is this the HPA axis thing? I don't find this drug motivating, but really I expect too much and would like a drug that would take over my life and send me on a holiday where I can recover; one to walk me out the door and away from the computer and everything else. So maybe it just makes me more comfortable and lets me sleep. Not bad, I guess.
Declan
Posted by Declan on May 26, 2006, at 6:20:27
In reply to Tianeptine, sleep, and stuff, posted by Declan on May 20, 2006, at 14:34:38
Tenth day on tianeptine. It's been pretty good. I can sleep much better, moods are more even and I feel less extreme. Sometimes there is a grizzley feeling, a sort of nervous irritation. Overall itis calming and nice with no negative s/e that I'm aware of. Suits me better than Parnate, moclobemide or mirtazepine(!), the only other ADs I've tried.
Declan
Posted by tessellated on May 26, 2006, at 13:01:35
In reply to Tianeptine day 10, posted by Declan on May 26, 2006, at 6:20:27
What is your dosage?
I like the almost feintly "excstacy" like quality that occurs around 9 per day. Prosexual, mild stimulant, and expensive but reliable.
Prozac's inverse-tres cool.As far as I know aside from MAOIS, it offers a wide range of augmentation.
I found it a superfantastic augment to provigil-also $$$ or adrafanil.
In theory a NARI: mirtazapine/ixel.
With wellbutrin I just became a slave to my testicles-made for incredable experiences...Dont know about it's seizure threshold factors though. But i think some woman had taken like hundreds in a day to no significant ill effects.
I must admit I'm ever so tempted to combine with the parnate i use currently.
In theory it being a 5HT accelerator shouldn't cause serotonin syndrome, as it is not inhibiting the uptake/increasing synaptic levels.
Any feel out there peeps on tianeptine and MAOI's?
Suppose I could take tiny tiny pieces and report back...
They're just so like a tic tac, makes you wanna pop em.8ed
Posted by linkadge on May 26, 2006, at 16:52:52
In reply to Re: Tianeptine day 10/MAOIS?, posted by tessellated on May 26, 2006, at 13:01:35
What I would like to see is this.
Combine Tianeptine, with an SSRI in a ratio so that SERT uptake is back to exactly baseline, then evaluate to see if there is still an antidepressant response.
If so, then the drugs probably have antidepressant effects outside of their effects on monoamine uptake.
Linkadge
Posted by Declan on May 26, 2006, at 18:54:15
In reply to Re: Tianeptine day 10/MAOIS?, posted by tessellated on May 26, 2006, at 13:01:35
Hi T8
Well, yes. Naturally I have been thinking of taking it with deprenyl, but I didn't sleep so well last night, sooo..... My fish oil caps look just like the ones containing ginkgo.......perhaps that's what did it?
I've been taking 3 a day.
Declan
Posted by tessellated on May 26, 2006, at 21:51:33
In reply to Re: Tianeptine day 10/MAOIS?, posted by linkadge on May 26, 2006, at 16:52:52
Egad, ok looks like its time to hit the ole books...
or nibbleDec, i like the T8! From now on I'll work with that.
Sorta like terminator 8, unfortunately like tate, but adequate for now spelling tessellated is tiring-so so tiring.Man, the fleas just sprang into action here in the jungles of LA: what evil little life forms.
Posted by foreigner on May 31, 2006, at 3:28:44
In reply to Re: Tianeptine day 10/MAOIS?, posted by tessellated on May 26, 2006, at 21:51:33
I used tianeptine 3 weeks. After 3 weeks ęts effects have decreased. It made me apathetic. Nothing good or bad. Life was very boring with this feeling.Intrestingly It was very motivating in first weeks.I should motivate myself to school.If I didn't study I wouldn't have complained about tis apathetic effect. I started to use st john's wort again. But it hasn't worked even as usual. Again I started tianeptine. What do you advise to combine with tianeptine for ęts apathetic effect? I am taking 200mg sam-e with it. Do you think sam-e and tianeptine work?
One more thing It is(tianeptine) very useful If you have a breathe problem(allergic or septum deviation problem) :)
Posted by foreigner on May 31, 2006, at 3:39:31
In reply to Tianeptine and apathy, posted by foreigner on May 31, 2006, at 3:28:44
Sorry for my english.It isn't my primitive language.
This is the end of the thread.
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