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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on April 17, 2006, at 15:11:02
Okay, so I've never personally taken a benzo (although I wish I had).
But just why are so many docs completely against them? (particulary here in the UK).
Okay so I understand that there is an aspect of physical dependance and tolerance, but surely thats not enough to warrent the extreme "benzo-phobia" that you see. I mean, these docs hand out SSRIs like candy, and last time I checked, SSRI withdrawal (or even the side effects) was no piece of cake, particulary as GPs are fairly clueless about the withdrawals themselves.
Why is it acceptable to be an elderly woman and be prescribed benzos, but for other people -- no way!??? I understand that they may have been on them for a good number of years, but still?
Benzos seem to have helped an awful lot of people and I can't understand where this extreme benzo phobia orginated. I mean, I haven't seen anybody here who is against benzos the way that some people are against SSRIs.
I just don't get it.
Posted by zeugma on April 17, 2006, at 16:08:04
In reply to Benzo-phobia + docs -- why, why, why?, posted by Meri-Tuuli on April 17, 2006, at 15:11:02
> Okay, so I've never personally taken a benzo (although I wish I had).
>
I have :-)> But just why are so many docs completely against them? (particulary here in the UK).
>
there are plenty in the U.S. who denounce them too.> Okay so I understand that there is an aspect of physical dependance and tolerance, but surely thats not enough to warrent the extreme "benzo-phobia" that you see. I mean, these docs hand out SSRIs like candy, and last time I checked, SSRI withdrawal (or even the side effects) was no piece of cake, particulary as GPs are fairly clueless about the withdrawals themselves.
>
if they don't know about the withdrawals, of course they don't worry about them. Ignorance is bliss.
> Why is it acceptable to be an elderly woman and be prescribed benzos, but for other people -- no way!??? I understand that they may have been on them for a good number of years, but still?
>
What I have heard is that if you have become 'dependent' on benzos, then a GP will prescribe them. Sort of like being a 'ruined woman' in Victorian novels- once you had been 'ruined' no one cared about what horrible things you were up to, as your moral taint was ineradicable. The GP's seem concerned for those who haven't taken them yet. You don't want to be 'ruined' for life.
> Benzos seem to have helped an awful lot of people and I can't understand where this extreme benzo phobia orginated. I mean, I haven't seen anybody here who is against benzos the way that some people are against SSRIs.
>They work very well for their intended purpose.
> I just don't get it.That's because you're not 'ruined' yet.
-z
Posted by blueberry on April 17, 2006, at 18:53:20
In reply to Benzo-phobia + docs -- why, why, why?, posted by Meri-Tuuli on April 17, 2006, at 15:11:02
I don't think sedation equals anti-anxiety. I've been sedated before but still had anxiety.
When people start a benzo like clonazepam, there is often sedation for a couple weeks. Later on they develope tolerance to the sedation, but the anti-anxiety remains.
And of course, mileage varies.
Posted by Glydin on April 17, 2006, at 19:17:20
In reply to Re: Benzo-phobia + docs -- why, why, why?, posted by zeugma on April 17, 2006, at 16:08:04
I think there are a number of factors involved in the reluctance or down right refusal to prescribe benzo's. I'm a benzo fan and successfully used Klonopin alone for three years. I am respectful of horror stories that some users have experienced. Following this board for four years, I can tell you the tide ebbs and flows on benzo use as to the makeup of the group at any given time ---- more folks liking their benzo's and those who have had life ruined by them.
I think there is an arguement to be made for a time of over-prescribing and lack of follow-up, thus big problems DID developed.
I'm in the US and have fortunately had a doc willing to working with me. Our country deals with liability issues and that drives some of the problems we have in prescribing meds with potential abusive properties - IMO. When I researched for myself, the FIRST, very FIRST info I found was the UK site that pretty much think they are the worse meds ever developed. Whether this influences the entire medical community of your country, I don't know. (as an aside, at one time, we were not to mention "that" specific site on this site due to the discord that followed)
This is a hot button subject and folks have really strong feelings and those feelings are based on how the course of being on a benzo went one individual to another. Docs are influenced also.
Posted by Phillipa on April 17, 2006, at 21:58:21
In reply to Re: Benzo-phobia + docs -- why, why, why?, posted by Glydin on April 17, 2006, at 19:17:20
I've never had a problem with having a benzo prescribed for me. Maybe because I have always been reluctant to up the dose of them if it was suggested. Now this new pdoc does have me worried. So maybe I'll move to the UK as I may be considered elderly there. Love Phillipa
Posted by Glydin on April 17, 2006, at 22:39:37
In reply to Re: Benzo-phobia + docs -- why, why, why? » Glydin, posted by Phillipa on April 17, 2006, at 21:58:21
> I've never had a problem with having a benzo prescribed for me.
~~~ Me either, and I think there's good evidence that supports folks with anxiety disorders do use them well and without problems for years and years. Unfortunately, that's not the idea most resources give.
> Maybe because I have always been reluctant to up the dose of them if it was suggested.~~~ I think that's true of alot of folks thereby supporting that people who really need them are quite careful and respectful of their potentials for problems.
I think what has bothered me most is I DO recognize that benzo's can be a complete nightmare for some. But, I've found that alot of antibenzo folks are not willing to think there is an appropriate use or users. I think it's short-sighted to generalize about any med, but I find with the thoughts about benzo use, there is an all or nothing thought process. That has always bothered me but I have come farther in my acceptance of it being the way it is. Mostly, I've done this by trying to ignore comments that don't hold to my own convictions as I found discussing to the point of arguing is fruitless and frustrating.
The particular group posting now seems to be alright with benzo use but that hasn't always been the case and there have been some ugly disrespectful (in my opinion) discussions about it.
> Now this new pdoc does have me worried.
~~~ That's a difficulity a number of us have faced. Having to "prove" you're alright with benzo's because of a switch to different doc with a different philosophy. I've gone through that too.
I wish there was a way to predict who would do well and those who would not. Actually, I wish that were true for all meds, but alas, that perfect world isn't here yet.
> So maybe I'll move to the UK as I may be considered elderly there.
~~~ Smile...
Posted by jerrympls on April 18, 2006, at 3:21:35
In reply to Benzo-phobia + docs -- why, why, why?, posted by Meri-Tuuli on April 17, 2006, at 15:11:02
Doctors who are benzo-phobic come from the school of thought where EVERYONE's an addict - no matter what. And if they put you on something that is even remotely addicting, they don't want to have to deal with getting you OFF of it IF you become addicted.
Doctors can rant and rage about how terrible benzos are all day long - but one simple fact remains: there isn't any other currnet class of medications for use and management of acute anxiety and/or panic symptoms that are as safe and effective as the benzos.
I'm not saying that they work great for everyone and I also respect those who have had terrible addiction & withdrawl due to benzos. But for a doctor in psychiatric medicine to completely ignore a major, major tool helpful in a varitiey of mental illnesses, anxiety disorders, etc is like a carpenter refusing to use a hammer becuase he just might miss the nail and hurt his thumb!
I love it when benzo-phobic docs use the analogy that benzos are "alcohol in a pill!" HAHHAH! the clinical pharmcology of alcohol couldn't be further from the clinical pharmacology of benzos.
I had one doc go on and on for 15 minutes telling my why he would NEVER EVER prescribe me a benzo because they are horrible medications and addictive and I'd become and addict, etc, etc., only to write me out a prescription for a generous amount of amphetamines. True story.
Not everyone is an addict. Not everyone abuses benzos. Not everyone develops rapid tolerance to benzos. Many people ONLY respond to benzos. They aren't evil.
Doctor's can be lazy and stupid and selfish.
My 2 cents.
Jerry
Posted by Violetskyye on April 18, 2006, at 20:59:31
In reply to Re: Benzo-phobia + docs -- why, why, why?, posted by jerrympls on April 18, 2006, at 3:21:35
I have been taking .5 mg of Ativan once a day or every few days for anxiety, and occasionally .25 mg of Xanax as needed. I have never had to up the dosage. I have never had withdrawal if I don't take it, and I don't take it to get high.
These meds have been a lifesaver, and, thankfully, I have had understanding doctors who are willing to keep prescribing them. I don't know what I'd do if they suddenly refused. [I know what you're thinking: if she's so panicked at the thought of running out, she's an addict, but really, having the pills handy just in case I get overly anxious does set my mind at rest.]
I think it's the same stupid mentality of many American doctors who won't prescribe sufficient morphine to someone who is in horrible pain. They think it's better for someone to suffer all their lives, instead of having something that will give them a good quality of life to avoid addiction.
Posted by Greif on April 19, 2006, at 16:35:01
In reply to Re: Benzo-phobia + docs -- why, why, why?, posted by Violetskyye on April 18, 2006, at 20:59:31
The medical comunity, as a whole, dont want to take risks. Benzos to those who have lived without them are seldom prescibed. I recently had oral surgery and the Doctor would not give me any paint medication except Tylonol 800. I had just paid him $1000 for an hour of work and his policy is no pain meds...too addicting. I could barely sleeep for two nights with throbbing pain. I went to my neighbor and she gave me script for 10 percocets. I only used 5 and threw the rest out. I dont like pain killers put prefer them to agony. Same logic. No benzos, just suffer. Fortunatly I have never had a problem getting them from Psychiatrists. MDs will only give 3 day supply if a life shattering event occurs. Oh well. BTW I have also read the UK board and a few others that believe the devil invented benzos and blame them for failed lives.
Posted by tizza on April 19, 2006, at 17:15:56
In reply to Re: Benzo-phobia + docs -- why, why, why?, posted by Greif on April 19, 2006, at 16:35:01
Australia is the same, I get so much relief from them compared to AD's and I find it soooooo much easier to stop benzo's compaired to ssri's and snri's. Effexor was quite possibly the worst drug I have ever had to discontinue. I get so angry with docs that won't prescribe them but as someone said docs hand out ssri's like candy and have no idea how hard it is to stop them compared to benzo's. I want the medical community to know this. Paul
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on April 20, 2006, at 9:32:48
In reply to Re: Benzo-phobia + docs -- why, why, why?, posted by tizza on April 19, 2006, at 17:15:56
Hey there Paul, yeah your story seems to be rather familiar. I mean, seriously, effexor withdrawal (or SSRIs) is no joke, and yet, docs are so anti benzos because of the withdrawal, but, sigh. Anyway it just doesn't make sense to me.
Meri
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on April 20, 2006, at 9:46:07
In reply to Re: Benzo-phobia + docs -- why, why, why?, posted by tizza on April 19, 2006, at 17:15:56
Check this anti benzo site out!!
The worrying thing is that it is run by a Professor at a reputable UK university!!!! Its crazy. I love the line in this quote "we can do without them".
Well, blow me, they can have crippling anxiety and panic attacks and see which they prefer.
The other quotes are rather bad too. Look, it seems that people will have a bad withdrawal if they stop it cold turkey -- of course they will!! You try stopping effexor cold turkey and see how you do.
____________
The biggest drug-addiction problem in the world doesn't involve heroin, cocaine or marijuana. In fact, it doesn't involve an illegal drug at all. The world's biggest drug-addiction problem is posed by a group of drugs, the benzodiazepines, which are widely prescribed by doctors and taken by countless millions of perfectly ordinary people around the world... Drug-addiction experts claim that getting people off the benzodiazepines is more difficult than getting addicts off heroin... For several years now pressure-groups have been fighting to help addicted individuals break free from their pharmacological chains. But the fight has been a forlorn one. As fast as one individual breaks free from one of the benzodiazepines another patient somewhere else becomes addicted. I believe that the main reason for this is that doctors are addicted to prescribing benzodiazepines just as much as patients are hooked on taking them. I don't think that the problem can ever be solved by gentle persuasion or by trying to wean patients off these drugs. I think that the only genuine long-term solution is to be aware of these drugs and to avoid them like the plague. The uses of the benzodiazepines are modest and relatively insignificant. We can do without them. I don't think that the benzodiazepine problem will be solved until patients around the world unite and make it clear that they are not prepared to accept prescriptions for these dangerous products." - Dr Vernon Coleman, Life Without Tranquillisers, 1985. More Quotations »»
Posted by zeugma on April 20, 2006, at 10:23:05
In reply to OMG: http://www.benzo.org.uk/, posted by Meri-Tuuli on April 20, 2006, at 9:46:07
I believe that the main reason for this is that doctors are addicted to prescribing benzodiazepines just as much as patients are hooked on taking them.>>
those pens they used to write scripts must have had hypodermics that injected them with Valium each time they prescribed it. I never suspected drug companies of such tactics before.
:-)-z
Posted by Glydin on April 20, 2006, at 11:14:23
In reply to OMG: http://www.benzo.org.uk/, posted by Meri-Tuuli on April 20, 2006, at 9:46:07
I wrote above:
"When I researched for myself, the FIRST, very FIRST info I found was the UK site that pretty much think they are the worse meds ever developed. Whether this influences the entire medical community of your country, I don't know. (as an aside, at one time, we were not to mention "that" specific site on this site due to the discord that followed)"
THAT's the site I was referring to. The site and it's opinions are pretty wellknown by alot of folks who use benzo's as it appears to be one of the first opinions you find when researching benzo use.
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on April 20, 2006, at 12:48:24
In reply to Re: OMG » Meri-Tuuli, posted by Glydin on April 20, 2006, at 11:14:23
Hi!
> THAT's the site I was referring to. The site and it's opinions are pretty wellknown by alot of folks who use benzo's as it appears to be one of the first opinions you find when researching benzo use.
Oh. I see. Whooooops!!!! I didn't realise. I hope I haven't broken any sort of Dr Bob protocol.
Its very stongly anti-benzo through isn't it? Maybe I can see why the UK government is so anti-benzo now. Although to be fair, the website doesn't really seem to be balanced - y'know, I'm sure for every horror story there is a successful one. And you would think that a distinguished professor at a good UK uni would y'know, have abit more of a balanced opinion.....it seems abit scaremongering to me. And all those horror stories, well if you're going to stop something cold turkey, then what do you expect!!? Oh well.
Well anyway I guess er, well. I guess the thread should stop now to erm, not break babble protocol. I didn't realise the site was non-kosher. Sorry. I guess Dr Bob can always xxx it out.
Kind regards
Meri
Posted by Glydin on April 20, 2006, at 13:09:57
In reply to Re: OMG » Glydin, posted by Meri-Tuuli on April 20, 2006, at 12:48:24
> Hi!
~~~ Hey, Meri
> Oh. I see. Whooooops!!!! I didn't realise. I hope I haven't broken any sort of Dr Bob protocol.
>~~~ I don't think it's a problem as long as the discussion doesn't get "caustic" in the differing opinions. If I remember correctly, I think that's what happened before and caused the "let's not talk about this site anymore" post from Dr. Bob. So, I don't think you did anything against any official "rules". At the time, there were more folks that supportive of that site and it got a bit heated.
> Its very stongly anti-benzo through isn't it? Maybe I can see why the UK government is so anti-benzo now. Although to be fair, the website doesn't really seem to be balanced - y'know,
~~~ I absolutely agree with you. As I've said before, I find folks who have a (IMO) balanced view see both sides of the issue and are willing to accept the good and bad findings as being true.
Take Good Care,
Glydin
Posted by ed_uk on April 20, 2006, at 13:18:13
In reply to Re: OMG » Glydin, posted by Meri-Tuuli on April 20, 2006, at 12:48:24
Dr. Ashton has been very influential in the UK - possibly the most benzophobic country in the world.
Ed
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 22, 2006, at 23:57:04
In reply to Re: OMG » Meri-Tuuli, posted by Glydin on April 20, 2006, at 13:09:57
> I don't think it's a problem as long as the discussion doesn't get "caustic" in the differing opinions. If I remember correctly, I think that's what happened before ... there were more folks that supportive of that site and it got a bit heated.
Right, the idea is to keep in mind that people here may feel the same way, to respect their views, and to be sensitive to their feelings. Thanks,
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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