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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 10 to 34 of 34. Go back in thread:
Posted by linkadge on April 15, 2006, at 15:16:35
In reply to Re: I'm apathetic, but I don't care » linkadge, posted by sleepygirl on April 15, 2006, at 10:24:41
It was a half-joke. Its true but, I don't much have the motivation to do anything about it.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on April 15, 2006, at 19:41:02
In reply to Re: I'm apathetic, but I don't care, posted by linkadge on April 15, 2006, at 15:16:35
Link you don't mince words you tell it exactly like it is. Fondly Phillipa
Posted by Sarah T. on April 16, 2006, at 0:29:22
In reply to I'm apathetic, but I don't care, posted by linkadge on April 14, 2006, at 18:22:10
Hi Linkadge,
I thought you were sort of half joking. When I was on ssri's, however, it was no joke. In fact, being apathetic and not caring about it is one of the main problems with ssri's. For most of us, apathy is not a good thing, and it can be dangerous, especially in adolescents who are on ssri's. Teenagers and children don't have enough experience to realize the consequences of their actions (or, in some cases, inaction). Teens often take inappropriate risks because, even without any medication, they still think they are indestructible and have an "It can't happen to me" attitude. Sometimes anxiety can be appropriate and life-saving, but if you give ssri's to a child or teen who has neither the life experience nor the appropriate anxiety to deal with a dangerous situation, the consequences can be devastating.
I have often thought that the popularity of ssri's is due, in large part, to this problem. Apathetic patients don't complain to their doctors much. No matter how terrible their lives may be, apathetic patients may just shrug it off, so their doctors may be led to believe that their patients are much better than they actually are. And some doctors who just want things to be nice and easy and who don't do a d**m thing to help their patients, like ssri's because their patients call them less and make no demands.
I don't think you're on ssri's now, but I brought all that up because, to my mind, in the past ten years or so, "apathy" and "ssri's" have become nearly synonymous.
Posted by ed_uk on April 16, 2006, at 6:10:01
In reply to Re: I'm apathetic, but I don't care » linkadge, posted by Sarah T. on April 16, 2006, at 0:29:22
The SSRI-induced apathy can be very dangerous. People's lives can be falling apart around them and they don't do anything to change the situation.
Although SSRIs have helped my anxiety, they have also damaged me. I could have achieved something without SSRIs. Now, I have achieved nothing and I don't even care.
>No matter how terrible their lives may be, apathetic patients may just shrug it off, so their doctors may be led to believe that their patients are much better than they actually are.
I think there's a lot of truth in that Sarah.
Ed
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on April 16, 2006, at 9:24:53
In reply to Re: I'm apathetic, but I don't care » Sarah T., posted by ed_uk on April 16, 2006, at 6:10:01
To be honest, I think thats how SSRIs work - they don't actually make you 'happy' as such -- they just numb you and make you apathetic so you don't care about the 'issues' that were bothering you previously. Well, in my experience anyway.
Meri
Posted by linkadge on April 16, 2006, at 12:17:52
In reply to Re: I'm apathetic, but I don't care » linkadge, posted by Sarah T. on April 16, 2006, at 0:29:22
Another problem with apathy in teen years is that this is a time when motivational ciruitry is supposed to be developing. A time when the individual needs to find drive an reward in participating in activities that may continue for a lifetime.
It is a horrible thing to induce apathy at that age. I'm less apathetic than on SSRI's thats for sure. Heck there were times where I would just sit and stare at the wall for hours on end.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on April 16, 2006, at 12:20:11
In reply to Re: I'm apathetic, but I don't care, posted by Meri-Tuuli on April 16, 2006, at 9:24:53
I would say thats the truth. They eliminate drive by changing the ballance of monoamines in the frontal cortex. A chemical lobotomy. I rememeber trying to counteract that with coffee. As my doctor raised the dose, my coffee intake would increase too.
Linkadge
Posted by Caedmon on April 16, 2006, at 12:23:33
In reply to Re: I'm apathetic, but I don't care » linkadge, posted by Sarah T. on April 16, 2006, at 0:29:22
>
> I have often thought that the popularity of ssri's is due, in large part, to this problem. Apathetic patients don't complain to their doctors much. No matter how terrible their lives may be, apathetic patients may just shrug it off, so their doctors may be led to believe that their patients are much better than they actually are. And some doctors who just want things to be nice and easy and who don't do a d**m thing to help their patients, like ssri's because their patients call them less and make no demands.>>Lexapro was very effective for my social phobia. And not because I was suddenly more confident or anything - I simply stopped caring about other people. I also stopped socializing, because it didn't matter to me. So far all the reuptake inhibitors I've been on ('cept Wellbutrin) have done a good job making me complacent in my withdrawn states. :(
- C
Posted by linkadge on April 16, 2006, at 12:23:52
In reply to Re: I'm apathetic, but I don't care » Meri-Tuuli, posted by linkadge on April 16, 2006, at 12:20:11
Another thing I was reading that seemed to make some sence, was that certain hormone secretion happens during certain stages of sleep, like REM sleep. So lets say you take a REM supressing drug, then you may actually be reducing your output of IGF or HGH.
I think that can contribute to the zombie state.
You aren't fully awake, because you never fully slept. Thats a zombie, neither awake nor asleap.Linkadge
Posted by Sarah T. on April 16, 2006, at 12:30:54
In reply to Re: I'm apathetic, but I don't care » Sarah T., posted by ed_uk on April 16, 2006, at 6:10:01
> The SSRI-induced apathy can be very dangerous. People's lives can be falling apart around them and they don't do anything to change the situation. >
Hi Ed. Yes, that is what I have experienced and seen in others. Quite a few years ago, I was sitting in a room at work. I was on an ssri. I think it was Zoloft. A gigantic wasp flew into the room. Actually, I don't know whether it was a wasp or some other humongous stinging insect. A few people were trying to swat the beast with a magazine. Everyone else in the room was jumping around and trying to run away from the monster-wasp, but I just sat there, as calm as could be. Everyone was yelling at me to get away from the menacing creature, but it just didn't bother me one way or the other. Fortunately, I knew something was wrong with my reaction, and I knew it was from the medicine.
Every once in a blue moon, I come across someone who does well on ssri's. I've met a few people here who like Lexapro, and I met one woman at the gym who said her life was better on Lexapro. She gained a lot of weight on it, and all the exercise in the world didn't seem to help the weight, but other than that, she said her life was better. It seems that those who do moderately well on ssri's are those whose depressions are characterized mostly by anxiety.
> Although SSRIs have helped my anxiety, they have also damaged me. I could have achieved something without SSRIs. Now, I have achieved nothing and I don't even care.>I'm sorry, Ed, I forgot. Are you on an ssri right now? I know how you're feeling, but I don't think it's true that you haven't achieved anything. It's clear from your posts that you've achieved a lot. Perhaps you haven't achieved as much as you would have liked, but don't minimize all you have accomplished. You are so knowledgeable and very helpful to us. I don't know how old you are. I gather from your posts that you are still very young, and you still have a lot of time to overcome the difficulties you've had.
> >No matter how terrible their lives may be, apathetic patients may just shrug it off, so their doctors may be led to believe that their patients are much better than they actually are.
>
> I think there's a lot of truth in that Sarah.>
> EdWhat I was trying to say (and what I think Linkadge meant by his subject line) is that the very nature of the problem (the problem of the apathy and amotivational syndromes caused by ssri's) makes it less likely that patients will report the problem to their doctors, so it becomes a vicious cycle.
Posted by Sarah T. on April 16, 2006, at 12:44:32
In reply to Re: I'm apathetic, but I don't care, posted by Meri-Tuuli on April 16, 2006, at 9:24:53
> To be honest, I think thats how SSRIs work - they don't actually make you 'happy' as such -- they just numb you and make you apathetic so you don't care about the 'issues' that were bothering you previously. Well, in my experience anyway.
> > Meri>Hi Meri. I agree. That has been my experience as well. You know, a few years ago, one of the weekly news magazines (I can't remember whether it was TIME or NEWSWEEK or BUSINESS WEEK or another one) did a cover story on "Why Does Service Stink?" It was about the decline in quality of services of all kinds. I was tempted to write a letter to the editor suggesting that service stinks because so many people are on ssri's, and the ssri's cause them not to care about the quality of the work they do. So many people just aren't conscientious about their work. The lack of care and concern have become so pervasive, at least in the U.S. Would you say this problem is increasing where you live?
Posted by linkadge on April 16, 2006, at 12:55:54
In reply to Re: I'm apathetic, but I don't care » ed_uk, posted by Sarah T. on April 16, 2006, at 12:30:54
Another thing to consider is that apathy "grows on you". You don't start out the drug apathetic, you feel good for the fist little while, but then day by day you just slowly turn into a zombie. There is no day that you can put your finger on.
Society as a whole doesn't have much problem with a class of drugs that induces apathy. You know, "a gram is better than a damn"
Another thing, is that often the sexual dysfunction, and the apathy all go hand in hand. So you don't really care about goals in general, well then the fact that you can't have sex doesn't bother you, becuase you don't really want to have sex either. So its like both the desire and the responce go out the window.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on April 16, 2006, at 13:00:58
In reply to Re: I'm apathetic, but I don't care » Sarah T., posted by linkadge on April 16, 2006, at 12:55:54
If the drugs were able to "selectivly" make you not care about the bad things, that'd be great. But they don't, they reduce emotional intensity of all forms. So, no you don't care about the test coming up, but then again you don't care much about watching your favorate movie.
Your fears and drives work in tandem. You need to have desires and drives in order to be able to have the motivation to overcome your fears.
So on SSRI's, you don't really go anywhere.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on April 16, 2006, at 13:27:52
In reply to Re: I'm apathetic, but I don't care, posted by linkadge on April 16, 2006, at 13:00:58
For 10 years I've told my docs that but to them they are miracle drugs guess it's because their pts don't bug them. So now I know why I feel the way I do. I used to have so much ambition and desire to achieve now I just wait to go to bed at night. And all I've accomplished with the jogging is a broken arm and nothing else. Oh how I used to love that runners high. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on April 16, 2006, at 13:42:41
In reply to Re: I'm apathetic, but I don't care » Meri-Tuuli, posted by linkadge on April 16, 2006, at 12:20:11
> A chemical lobotomy.
Yep thats exactly how I would describe it!! And then you turn into a zombie. Like you say, you don't care for doing the 'fun' things either - all I did was eat, sleep, work and sleep some more. It was really bad. Plus it really really affected my concentration. I just couldn't concentrate.
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on April 16, 2006, at 13:51:56
In reply to Re: I'm apathetic, but I don't care » Meri-Tuuli, posted by Sarah T. on April 16, 2006, at 12:44:32
Hi, Sarah T. Yeah, maybe! Well, I think an awful lot of people are on SSRIs. The government found traces of prozac in the drinking water, thats how many people must be on them. i don't know about the whole service issue. I live in the UK, and well, I think service is worse here than in the US. Certainly when I have visited the US it was alot better than here in the UK. Thing is, here waitresses/bar tenders etc don't actually work for tips. Tipping isn't done here to the same extent as in the US, so waitresses etc don't have to work as hard being nice to the customer. Is that the sort of thing you mean by service? But yeah, even in broad terms, service is probably getting worse. Or just 'indifferent' like you say. You never seem to get shop/bar/cafe assistants who are really nice and cheery.
> Hi Meri. I agree. That has been my experience as well. You know, a few years ago, one of the weekly news magazines (I can't remember whether it was TIME or NEWSWEEK or BUSINESS WEEK or another one) did a cover story on "Why Does Service Stink?" It was about the decline in quality of services of all kinds. I was tempted to write a letter to the editor suggesting that service stinks because so many people are on ssri's, and the ssri's cause them not to care about the quality of the work they do. So many people just aren't conscientious about their work. The lack of care and concern have become so pervasive, at least in the U.S. Would you say this problem is increasing where you live?
>
>
Posted by linkadge on April 16, 2006, at 14:16:37
In reply to Re: I'm apathetic, but I don't care, posted by Meri-Tuuli on April 16, 2006, at 13:42:41
I developed the fully fledged symptoms of ADHD on SSRI's. I litterally wouldn't be able to sit and do one thing for 5 minautes.
I would not go to a theatre because I knew I would want to get up and move around before the coming attractions was over.
P.S. There should be a separate board for people like me who just want to sit around and complain about about how drugs have messed them up :)
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on April 16, 2006, at 14:35:46
In reply to Re: I'm apathetic, but I don't care, posted by linkadge on April 16, 2006, at 14:16:37
> I developed the fully fledged symptoms of ADHD on SSRI's. I litterally wouldn't be able to sit and do one thing for 5 minautes.
I wonder if you weren't experiencing a mild akathisia-like state.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on April 16, 2006, at 14:43:43
In reply to Re: I'm apathetic, but I don't care, posted by SLS on April 16, 2006, at 14:35:46
Same here I can't sit still or get up the enthusiasm for doing anything. Everything is a chore. I'm used to being active. Hence the broken arm and stubborn too. I'm not supposed to use this arm but I had my husband cut the temporary cast so at least I could type. And last night had to take a percocet which did'nt work. The pain from using the arm was excruciating. But do I learn no here I am again doing the same. Love Phillipa
Posted by linkadge on April 16, 2006, at 15:57:47
In reply to Re: I'm apathetic, but I don't care, posted by SLS on April 16, 2006, at 14:35:46
Yeah, akathesia was probably definately a part of it.
Linkadge
Posted by ed_uk on April 16, 2006, at 19:01:18
In reply to Re: I'm apathetic, but I don't care, posted by Meri-Tuuli on April 16, 2006, at 9:24:53
Hi Meri
>they just numb you and make you apathetic so you don't care about the 'issues' that were bothering you previously
I think that's how they work for OCD. Your obsessions and compulsions decrease because you don't care anymore. Not sure about depression though. Some people find them 'mood brightening' without getting apathetic.
Ed xx
Posted by Phillipa on April 16, 2006, at 19:16:23
In reply to Re: I'm apathetic, but I don't care » Meri-Tuuli, posted by ed_uk on April 16, 2006, at 19:01:18
Ed is that how celexa affects you? Mood brightening? Love PJ O
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on April 17, 2006, at 4:00:42
In reply to Re: I'm apathetic, but I don't care » Meri-Tuuli, posted by ed_uk on April 16, 2006, at 19:01:18
Hi Ed!
> Some people find them 'mood brightening' without getting apathetic.I wish I were one of those lucky ones....I was just as miserable on them as off them. Only on them, it somehow didn't bother me as much. Sigh.
Kind regards
Meri
Posted by Deneb on April 17, 2006, at 22:21:58
In reply to Re: I'm apathetic, but I don't care, posted by Meri-Tuuli on April 17, 2006, at 4:00:42
OMGosh, I just discovered this thread.
I think I have a lot of apathy from taking Celexa. I've taken it during most of my stay in university and I've done very poorly because of skipping classes and not studying.
The one semester I didn't take any medication I got 3 A's and two B+'s.
I'm doing a little better now with motivation, maybe it's because Wellbutrin and Risperdal were added.
Wow, does this mean I screwed up university from taking Celexa? My pdoc didn't tell me anything about apathy. I didn't even know there was anything wrong.
Deneb*
Posted by Phillipa on April 18, 2006, at 0:29:05
In reply to Re: I'm apathetic, but I don't care, posted by Deneb on April 17, 2006, at 22:21:58
Deneb you are doing so much better on your meds. And it's late so I figure your procrastinating and not studying. And it's time to go to sleep now I'm goine go. Night Deneb. Love Phillipa
This is the end of the thread.
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