![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Squiggles on March 27, 2006, at 17:53:40
It's been an incredibly difficult 3 1/2 weeks;
I am not sure if just cutting 30% or so on one
day of the 900mg per day lithium dose, was
entirely responsible. I vaguely recall wondering
why only 2 of the usual 3 clonazepam (1.50 per day) were in one box -- both of these factors may
have accounted for the severe withdrawal and
reistatement effects. The metabolic acidosis
is just a theory of mine which i picked out
of the Merck as it fits the symptoms so well.I am still recovering. This reminds me of
past interactions with the benzo.org group
and Stevie Nicks' testimonials.http://www.benzo.org.uk/nicks.htm
My thanks to those who responded - you know
who you are, and my apologies for the severe
anxiety posts; hope i didn't spook you too much
Dinah.Bye for now.
Squiggles
Posted by maryhelen on March 27, 2006, at 19:03:59
In reply to Slow recovery, but from what?, posted by Squiggles on March 27, 2006, at 17:53:40
Hi Squiggles:
Sorry to hear that you are having such a hard time. I have been away from the boards for a long time because of being so disabled by my depression, so I must say that I do not know your story. As I understand it, you are coming off 900 mg. of lithium and I just hit 900 today. Was your experience with it really awful?
Interesting, sad and maddening story about Stevie Nicks testimonial. Thanks for drawing attention to it.
I do hope things will start to ease up for you soon.
maryhelen
Posted by Squiggles on March 27, 2006, at 19:14:38
In reply to Re: Slow recovery, but from what?, posted by maryhelen on March 27, 2006, at 19:03:59
> Hi Squiggles:
>
> Sorry to hear that you are having such a hard time. I have been away from the boards for a long time because of being so disabled by my depression, so I must say that I do not know your story. As I understand it, you are coming off 900 mg. of lithium and I just hit 900 today. Was your experience with it really awful?
>
> Interesting, sad and maddening story about Stevie Nicks testimonial. Thanks for drawing attention to it.
>
> I do hope things will start to ease up for you soon.
>
> maryhelen
>Hi maryhelen,
I don't recall reading your posts before.
Thank you for your kind wishes. Lithium
is not a problem usually. I hope you like
it. I found it the greatest for depression,
barring the side effects and narrow therapeutic
index.No, I am not coming off lithium - certainly
not after taking for 25 years. I just cut
a bit because i thought it was going toxic
and upon reistatement got severe dyspnea
and cardiac-seeming effects. But, this time
they were so bad, and so intense, like 6
heart attacks a day, that I think i also
cut on my clonazepam dose by mistake.Stevie Nicks is known to have said that
getting off K is harder than heroin. And
when I tried I did not succeed.Good luck with the lithium - it *is* used
for unipolar so it might work.Squiggles
Posted by Phillipa on March 27, 2006, at 21:31:37
In reply to Re: Many questions - but no answers - Met. Aci. » maryhelen, posted by Squiggles on March 27, 2006, at 19:14:38
squiggles so you forgot to take your klonopin? Love Phillipa
Posted by Squiggles on March 27, 2006, at 23:59:30
In reply to Re: Many questions - but no answers - Met. Aci. » Squiggles, posted by Phillipa on March 27, 2006, at 21:31:37
> squiggles so you forgot to take your klonopin? Love Phillipa
It's a possibility - around the time this
started i recall looking at my pill box,
and thinking there was one missing; since
i seem to be recovering that could be it;
another thing to think about in drug
routines;tx
Squiggles
Posted by maryhelen on March 29, 2006, at 16:20:40
In reply to Re: Many questions - but no answers - Met. Aci. » maryhelen, posted by Squiggles on March 27, 2006, at 19:14:38
Hi Squiggles:
I haven't been able to on the board for years because the depression has become disabling. So you would not have seen posts from me. Even when I am able to come to babble, I usually just read. You can usually find your own story written by someone else and I always feel very shy to post a thread.
Wow, you have gone through a lot. I was on lithium about 3 years ago. I was having severe side effects like tremors in my arms and hands, my hair was falling out and most importantly my brain was very dull. I felt rather stupid. This was the biggest problem as I was due to return to work after being off for 2 years. The doc stopped the lithium and put me right on Lamitcal. I has the first and only response to my depression for the first time in my life after all the pills I tried, shock treatments, etc. etc. The response was almost frightening. Not to be depressed was the most astonishing thing that I have experienced. My hair was still falling out from the lithium and I didn't care. If I could stay like this, I would wear a wig. Unfortunatley, the response lasted for 8 weeks and then I started waking up with that mental and sick physical feeling of the depression returning. As I had returned to work, this was devastating, and I only lasted for 3 months and had to leave my job again.
Over the years, my psych doc has tried many treatments but they have not worked, including trying Lamitcal again. He is trying a new combination. I think he feels that because the lithium was still coming out of my system and I went right on to the Lamitcal, it may be worth it to try the combination of:
Lithium: just hit 900 mg. How do you know when you have the proper amount in your system. Is it from the blood work or also how you are feeling?
Lamitcal: I am at 50 mg. It is a slow introduction, but I don't know how high he wants to go.
Cipralex: 20 mg. I believe this is one of the newer antidepressants.
I can't believe you have been on it for 25 years. How long, if you can stand the side effects, do you need to be on it before it will work, if it is going to? I guess it has been such a long time since you first took it to ask you to remember.
A friend of mine was trying to get into a treatment centre for alcohol. She has psychiatric needs and is on lithium and an antidepressant. The admitting doctor told her that she would have to stop these drugs as they are both addictive. My understanding and experience is that antidepressants are not addictive and that lithium certainly isn't. Squiggles, lithium isn't addictive, is it?
Hope you are feeling better today.
p.s. Over a lifetime of depression and 25 years of active treatment, the one thing that will lift my mood is opiates, or in particular percocetts. It is so frustrating.
maryhelen
Posted by Squiggles on March 29, 2006, at 16:46:35
In reply to Re: Many questions - but no answers - Met. Aci., posted by maryhelen on March 29, 2006, at 16:20:40
> Hi Squiggles:
>
> I haven't been able to on the board for years because the depression has become disabling. So you would not have seen posts from me. Even when I am able to come to babble, I usually just read. You can usually find your own story written by someone else and I always feel very shy to post a thread.So you are in a state of depression all the
time you come and read here;>
> Wow, you have gone through a lot. I was on lithium about 3 years ago. I was having severe side effects like tremors in my arms and hands, my hair was falling out and most importantly my brain was very dull. I felt rather stupid. This was the biggest problem as I was due to return to work after being off for 2 years.That sounds like your lithium dose was too high,
and your thyroid dose too low; tremor is common
when lithium is high and falling hair is a common
symptom of hypothyroidism, which is induced
by the lithium. You would have to be
supplemented with thyroxine hormone on lithium,
as I am.
The doc stopped the lithium and put me right on Lamitcal. I has the first and only response to my depression for the first time in my life after all the pills I tried, shock treatments, etc. etc. The response was almost frightening. Not to be depressed was the most astonishing thing that I have experienced. My hair was still falling out from the lithium and I didn't care. If I could stay like this, I would wear a wig.So, the Lamictal helped you in lifting you
from depression whereas the lithium did not?
Are you diagnosed as bipolar?
Unfortunatley, the response lasted for 8 weeks and then I started waking up with that mental and sick physical feeling of the depression returning. As I had returned to work, this was devastating, and I only lasted for 3 months and had to leave my job again.
>Oh I see. That must have been a very disturbing
experience and disappointing.
> Over the years, my psych doc has tried many treatments but they have not worked, including trying Lamitcal again. He is trying a new combination. I think he feels that because the lithium was still coming out of my system and I went right on to the Lamitcal, it may be worth it to try the combination of:
>
> Lithium: just hit 900 mg. How do you know when you have the proper amount in your system. Is it from the blood work or also how you are feeling?You have to have blood work of course - the
average drs. look for is 0.8 - 1.2 mil. At first
the level is unstable (maybe a few months) and
once it is stable, the dr. is basically satisfied
and does what he or she thinks is a regular
check up.BTW, switching treatment is no easy matter,
especially if you there is a combination of
drugs involved. You can spend years stabilizing
from withdrawal, complications, or just
unfortunate mistakes in getting the right drugs.
That is one of the reasons why I will not
switch unless my primary AD actually has a
harmful effect, which after 25 yrs. does not
seem to, unless I interrupt it.
>
> Lamitcal: I am at 50 mg. It is a slow introduction, but I don't know how high he wants to go.
>
> Cipralex: 20 mg. I believe this is one of the newer antidepressants.
>
> I can't believe you have been on it for 25 years. How long, if you can stand the side effects, do you need to be on it before it will work, if it is going to? I guess it has been such a long time since you first took it to ask you to remember.
>Maybe 20 yrs. I don't feel many side effects
in comparison the drugs my friends take -- they
are truly horrible.
> A friend of mine was trying to get into a treatment centre for alcohol. She has psychiatric needs and is on lithium and an antidepressant. The admitting doctor told her that she would have to stop these drugs as they are both addictive. My understanding and experience is that antidepressants are not addictive and that lithium certainly isn't. Squiggles, lithium isn't addictive, is it?No, it is not.
>
> Hope you are feeling better today.
>
I am improving muchly, thank you. I do
suspect i skipped a clonazepam and that would
take 30 days at least to reinstate CNS
stability - it's a real killer drug. :-)> p.s. Over a lifetime of depression and 25 years of active treatment, the one thing that will lift my mood is opiates, or in particular percocetts. It is so frustrating.
Yeah......opiates .......mmmmmmmmmm! But they
are addicting and illegal. There are worse
things - poor Whitney Houston - i was reading
that she is living in hell from crack addiction.
Not sure if they know how to detox you from
that.
I hope Cipralex and Lamictal work for you and
maybe you can post the results.Thanks for taking the trouble to post.
Squiggles
>
> maryhelen
Posted by Squiggles on March 29, 2006, at 17:19:03
In reply to Re: Many questions - but no answers - Met. Aci. » maryhelen, posted by Squiggles on March 29, 2006, at 16:46:35
Maryhelen,
I thought you might like to know that
i looked up CIPRALEX - it is an SSRI;
not recommended for manic-depression;
as for Lamictal - it is an anti-convulsant
in the same class as clonazepam (or Klonopin
or Rivotril - which is what I take anyway).Here is a link for these drugs - make you
sure you are properly diagnosed:
Posted by maryhelen on March 29, 2006, at 19:07:57
In reply to Re: Many questions - Cipralex an SSRI » Squiggles, posted by Squiggles on March 29, 2006, at 17:19:03
> Maryhelen,
>
> I thought you might like to know that
> i looked up CIPRALEX - it is an SSRI;
> not recommended for manic-depression;
> as for Lamictal - it is an anti-convulsant
> in the same class as clonazepam (or Klonopin
> or Rivotril - which is what I take anyway).I neglected to mention that I am taking the lithium in the new medicine combination. Up to 900 mg for past few days
Thanks for looking up this information for me. I usually research any medication thouroughly when I go on it, but with the depression being so bad I am just taking then. I am not manic-depressive so that is good with regard to the Cipralex. I did know when I took Lamitcal 3 years ago that it is an anti-convulsant.....but I had no idea that it is in the same class as clonazepam and Klonopin. Actually, I can't believe I missed that. Does that mean that it is addictive? Not that I am not addicted to my pain pills (opiates)
>
> Here is a link for these drugs - make you
> sure you are properly diagnosed:Thank you so much for the time you spent for me. Ironically, the only reason my mood has lifted and I am able to be here, is because I have had three awful falls, have a cast on my right arm, and have been given percocetts for the pain. I know it sounds strange, but after 25 years of more meds and combos I could ever remember, 2 rounds of shock treatment, 7 or 8 psychiatric hospitalizations, 4 treatment centres, every kind of talk therapy, 12 step programs, methadone, day treatment programs .............. it comes down to these damn pills.
>
> http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/lamotrigine_ad.htm
Thank you for the link and thank you for helping me, Squiggles.maryhelen
Posted by Squiggles on March 29, 2006, at 19:36:27
In reply to Re: Many questions - Cipralex an SSRI, posted by maryhelen on March 29, 2006, at 19:07:57
Don't mention it. Hang in there and
get the best care you can from your
doctor. And don't be shy to ask questions
or express your opinions with him/her.
I'm a real pain in the @** with mine
but I hope he knows I mean well, and maybe
even help with the treatment.Take care of yourself.
Squiggles
Posted by TylerJ on March 31, 2006, at 10:00:28
In reply to Re: Many questions - but no answers - Met. Aci., posted by maryhelen on March 29, 2006, at 16:20:40
> Hi Squiggles:
>
> I haven't been able to on the board for years because the depression has become disabling. So you would not have seen posts from me. Even when I am able to come to babble, I usually just read. You can usually find your own story written by someone else and I always feel very shy to post a thread.
>
> Wow, you have gone through a lot. I was on lithium about 3 years ago. I was having severe side effects like tremors in my arms and hands, my hair was falling out and most importantly my brain was very dull. I felt rather stupid. This was the biggest problem as I was due to return to work after being off for 2 years. The doc stopped the lithium and put me right on Lamitcal. I has the first and only response to my depression for the first time in my life after all the pills I tried, shock treatments, etc. etc. The response was almost frightening. Not to be depressed was the most astonishing thing that I have experienced. My hair was still falling out from the lithium and I didn't care. If I could stay like this, I would wear a wig. Unfortunatley, the response lasted for 8 weeks and then I started waking up with that mental and sick physical feeling of the depression returning. As I had returned to work, this was devastating, and I only lasted for 3 months and had to leave my job again.
>
> Over the years, my psych doc has tried many treatments but they have not worked, including trying Lamitcal again. He is trying a new combination. I think he feels that because the lithium was still coming out of my system and I went right on to the Lamitcal, it may be worth it to try the combination of:
>
> Lithium: just hit 900 mg. How do you know when you have the proper amount in your system. Is it from the blood work or also how you are feeling?
>
> Lamitcal: I am at 50 mg. It is a slow introduction, but I don't know how high he wants to go.
>
> Cipralex: 20 mg. I believe this is one of the newer antidepressants.
>
> I can't believe you have been on it for 25 years. How long, if you can stand the side effects, do you need to be on it before it will work, if it is going to? I guess it has been such a long time since you first took it to ask you to remember.
>
> A friend of mine was trying to get into a treatment centre for alcohol. She has psychiatric needs and is on lithium and an antidepressant. The admitting doctor told her that she would have to stop these drugs as they are both addictive. My understanding and experience is that antidepressants are not addictive and that lithium certainly isn't. Squiggles, lithium isn't addictive, is it?
>
> Hope you are feeling better today.
>
> p.s. Over a lifetime of depression and 25 years of active treatment, the one thing that will lift my mood is opiates, or in particular percocetts. It is so frustrating.
>
> maryhelenMaryhelen,
Tell your pdoc about how opiates lift your mood. Many docs today use Opiates to treat depression. Good Luck.Tyler
Posted by Squiggles on March 31, 2006, at 11:58:52
In reply to Re: Many questions - but no answers - Met. Aci. » maryhelen, posted by TylerJ on March 31, 2006, at 10:00:28
Stabilized!
I'm starting to feel like a spring chicken, or is it the Pharm Phoenix? I'm coming back to life
as i knew it. The Gods must have made me
********** indestructible, only to punish me
over and over again for my pride. It's
a pain in the *** of classic Greek proportions -
Sisyphus, Narcissism, Nemesis, and a little Stoic/neo-Christian scatological values thrown in:
Catharsis;
Frankly, this "slammerino" has happened before
many times and at times when the Rivotril was
cut - it was unbearable. But in either case,
lithium or Rivotril, it takes about 30 days for
the CNS to stabilize to its original condition.This is not the kind of thing that elderly people
could handle well, I think. It could be
dangerous. As I get older, I am more inclined
to stick to my doctor's prescription to the letter. It is also very hard on your family
because they basically lose you for a couple
of months. My husband has been my rock of
Gibraltar.All's well that ends well.
Squiggles
BTW, maryhelen and Tyler, when you speak of
opiates you must be speaking of Vicodin?
Regarding switching treatments I have always
said that the devil you know is better than
the devil you don't. But if you can stick on
this under your dr.'s supervision, i confess
to a little envy :-).
Posted by maryhelen on March 31, 2006, at 15:34:33
In reply to Re: Many questions - but no answers - Met. Aci. » maryhelen, posted by TylerJ on March 31, 2006, at 10:00:28
He Tyler:
I have been with my psychiatrist for 6 years now. I met him at a Treatment Centre, but I have been able to stay with him after I left. Ironically, I was being detoxed from percocetts and dilaudid (which I stupidly took for 2 months not knowing it was 9 times more powerful than morphine). I have been in treatment 4 or 5 times now. The thing is I have no problem getting off the percs. It was staying off them. I have had depression all of my life, not really knowing it. I have been treated for the last 25 years with, well like so many of us, more meds and combinations than I could ever remember, 8 psych hospitalizations, shock treatment twice, etc. etc. etc. Nothing worked, except an 8 week response to Lamitcal three years ago.
The reason I am mentioning this, is that when I started to use opiates for migraines at 36 years old, I began to realize that I wasn't depressed when I used the percocetts. Then I was told I was a drug addict and I was depressed because of the pills, if I stopped taking pills the depression would go away. Therefore, the treatment centres. But, no matter how long I stayed off the percocetts, 2 years once, I still had the depression. Right or wrong, when the depression gets so bad and I am suicidal, I would and still do to this day, get the percocetts or some type of opiates and be out of the depression within hours.....still brainwashed that I am simply a drug addict. I started seeing some research on the net that there are people like myself, who only get relief from their depression from opiates. So maybe I am not crazy. I know it is an urealistic treatment for some people, because you do end up having to take more as your body tolerates it. My pdoc even tried methadone, being an opiate, thought it might help. The clinic would not go up to the high dose I would have needed and it turned out to be a horrible experience and I went through hell.
My pdoc, over the years, has come to realize that the opiates are what takes my depression away. I have asked him to prescribe opiates, but he said in good conscious, he cannot. We are waiting for the Canadian government to release a drug called Buprenorphine, works similar to meth. We have just started a new drug combo...lithium, lamitcal and cipralex. The only reason I can be on the computer is because I had a terrible fall and I have percocetts for the pain. Sometimes, I think I must be like an animal with the huge amounts of some meds I have taken and they don't even affect me. For instance, about a month ago my pdoc prescribed a medication called dextroamphetamine, seldom used, but can be tried for chronic clinical treatment resistant depression. He took a big risk, given my tolerance. This drug used to be sold on the street as 'speed'. He doubled and tripled the dose, said don't split it take them all at once, and was stunned that it had no effect on me positive or negative. It was like I wasn't even taking it.
So, we will continue with this new regime and if this doesn't work, into hospital for 3 months for the third round of shock treatment. In the meantime, when things get so bad that I can't stand it and I become suidical, I will get some percocetts, by double doctoring and breaking the law, which terrifies me.I am sorry. As my daughter says, Mom, you have to learn to edit when you write or speak. You go on for too long and I am afraid I have here.
Thank you for responding and for your suggestion.
maryhelen
Posted by TylerJ on April 1, 2006, at 8:28:42
In reply to Re: Many questions - but no answers ...Tyler, posted by maryhelen on March 31, 2006, at 15:34:33
> He Tyler:
>
> I have been with my psychiatrist for 6 years now. I met him at a Treatment Centre, but I have been able to stay with him after I left. Ironically, I was being detoxed from percocetts and dilaudid (which I stupidly took for 2 months not knowing it was 9 times more powerful than morphine). I have been in treatment 4 or 5 times now. The thing is I have no problem getting off the percs. It was staying off them. I have had depression all of my life, not really knowing it. I have been treated for the last 25 years with, well like so many of us, more meds and combinations than I could ever remember, 8 psych hospitalizations, shock treatment twice, etc. etc. etc. Nothing worked, except an 8 week response to Lamitcal three years ago.
>
> The reason I am mentioning this, is that when I started to use opiates for migraines at 36 years old, I began to realize that I wasn't depressed when I used the percocetts. Then I was told I was a drug addict and I was depressed because of the pills, if I stopped taking pills the depression would go away. Therefore, the treatment centres. But, no matter how long I stayed off the percocetts, 2 years once, I still had the depression. Right or wrong, when the depression gets so bad and I am suicidal, I would and still do to this day, get the percocetts or some type of opiates and be out of the depression within hours.....still brainwashed that I am simply a drug addict. I started seeing some research on the net that there are people like myself, who only get relief from their depression from opiates. So maybe I am not crazy. I know it is an urealistic treatment for some people, because you do end up having to take more as your body tolerates it. My pdoc even tried methadone, being an opiate, thought it might help. The clinic would not go up to the high dose I would have needed and it turned out to be a horrible experience and I went through hell.
>
> My pdoc, over the years, has come to realize that the opiates are what takes my depression away. I have asked him to prescribe opiates, but he said in good conscious, he cannot. We are waiting for the Canadian government to release a drug called Buprenorphine, works similar to meth. We have just started a new drug combo...lithium, lamitcal and cipralex. The only reason I can be on the computer is because I had a terrible fall and I have percocetts for the pain. Sometimes, I think I must be like an animal with the huge amounts of some meds I have taken and they don't even affect me. For instance, about a month ago my pdoc prescribed a medication called dextroamphetamine, seldom used, but can be tried for chronic clinical treatment resistant depression. He took a big risk, given my tolerance. This drug used to be sold on the street as 'speed'. He doubled and tripled the dose, said don't split it take them all at once, and was stunned that it had no effect on me positive or negative. It was like I wasn't even taking it.
> So, we will continue with this new regime and if this doesn't work, into hospital for 3 months for the third round of shock treatment. In the meantime, when things get so bad that I can't stand it and I become suidical, I will get some percocetts, by double doctoring and breaking the law, which terrifies me.
>
> I am sorry. As my daughter says, Mom, you have to learn to edit when you write or speak. You go on for too long and I am afraid I have here.
>
> Thank you for responding and for your suggestion.
>
> maryhelen
Hi maryhelen,
I can tell 2 things from your post. One, you are a very nice person. Two, you have been suffering terribly from this horrible illness we all share.
I've also been on meds for 25 years. I actually noticed some problems as early as age 16, but kept them secret until age 22, I had a full blown breakdown and ended up in the hosp. I've tried all the ssri's, all the snri's, most of the TCA's, and even ECT. Had 24 ECT treatments in 1997...didn't think they helped much, have they helped you? Finally in '97 I tried Nardil..it worked some but the side effects were awful (for me anyway). Then came Parnate..I loved it, best I had ever felt in my entire life, unfortunately didn't last- only 2 1/2 months. Now 9 years later I'm back on Parnate and doing very well for 2 mos. now. One big difference this time is that I'm sleeping, so I'm hoping the Parnate will continue to work well for me for a long time!
What have you tried? Ever try MAOI's? How about Remeron? Remeron combined with Paxil worked well for me for about 5 years. I think Remeron is the best next to the MAOI's. I will never waste my time again with the ssri's. But if needed, I would try Nardil again, The MAOI patch, and of course remeron if needed.
Let me know if you've tried any of these meds. There's got to be a med or a med combo out there to help you maryhelen. I really am so sorry that you are and have been suffering so badly. Are you a believer? Without God, I would never have made it this far. If it's okay with you I'll add you to my prayers?Take care,
Tyler
This is the end of the thread.
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