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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by scatterbrained on March 28, 2006, at 20:47:12
In reply to Re: Neighbor who is a teacher Says SSRI's Cause Memory » Phillipa, posted by Jakeman on March 28, 2006, at 19:44:59
I don't believe that it is so much that the ssri's help with memory but that they help with depression(in some people) which in turn helps with memory.
Is ssri brain growth more pronounced than say trycyclic or maoi brain growth, is there a study?
Posted by linkadge on March 28, 2006, at 21:44:57
In reply to Re: Neighbor who is a teacher Says SSRI's Cause Memory » Phillipa, posted by Jakeman on March 28, 2006, at 19:44:59
From what I've pieced together, the SSRI's seem to promote the extention of mature hippocampal neurons, but can actually slow the rate of growth of immature neurons. They seem also to affect differentially neurogenesis in certain hippocampal subfeilds. Some studies have hypothesized that SSRI's simply increase hippocampal turnover, see the below study.So, it is not really compleately understood how SSRI's affect the hippocampus overall, longterm.
Additionally, norepinephrine and dopamine also have effects on hippocampal proliferation. in different areas of the hippocampus. Ie mice lacking 5-ht1a receptor still respond to NRI's.
Norepinephrine plays a strong role in the recall of memories of emotional content too.
So, another consideration is that if an SSRI was to lower catecholamines, then it might supress certain forms of neurogenesis or memory recall.A study taken from:
http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content/full/25/5/1089
Furthermore, we observed that chronic treatment with imipramine or fluoxetine produced a temporally similar increase in both BrdU-positive and terminal deoxynucleotidyl transferase-mediated biotinylated UTP nick end-labeled neurons in the dentate gyrus, indicating that these drugs simultaneously increase both neurogenesis and neuronal elimination. These data suggest that antidepressants increase turnover of hippocampal neurons rather than neurogenesis per se and that BDNF signaling is required for the long-term survival of newborn neurons in mouse hippocampus.
Linkadge
Posted by Glydin on March 28, 2006, at 22:30:30
In reply to Neighbor who is a teacher Says SSRI's Cause Memory, posted by Phillipa on March 28, 2006, at 12:34:42
> this must National SSRI bad side effects week. Love Phillipa
That would be just about every week here.What was your name again? (she said jokingly)
Posted by ian34 on March 28, 2006, at 22:52:01
In reply to Neighbor who is a teacher Says SSRI's Cause Memory, posted by Phillipa on March 28, 2006, at 12:34:42
I tend to think that anti-anxiety drugs cause temporary memory loss a lot more than ssris do. I have taken both and when I came of benzos I was much clearer.
Posted by fairywings on March 28, 2006, at 23:59:39
In reply to Neighbor who is a teacher Says SSRI's Cause Memory, posted by Phillipa on March 28, 2006, at 12:34:42
Wow, wouldn't 6 mg of xanax make anyone forget? Isn't that an awful lot?
fw
Posted by Phillipa on March 29, 2006, at 0:03:22
In reply to Re: Neighbor who is a teacher Says SSRI's Cause Memory » Phillipa, posted by fairywings on March 28, 2006, at 23:59:39
I'd sleep for a week on 6mg of xanax. Yes it's an awfully lot. Love Phillipa
Posted by tizza on March 29, 2006, at 1:37:50
In reply to Re: Neighbor who is a teacher Says SSRI's Cause Me, posted by linkadge on March 28, 2006, at 13:02:05
They mess with my memory, I have trouble recalling simple conversations that I had 5 mins ago and keep repeating myself when I am on them. Well I have been off them for 6 months now and it's still happening, that's life. Paul
Posted by greywolf on March 29, 2006, at 7:24:18
In reply to Re: Neighbor who is a teacher Says SSRI's Cause Memory » Phillipa, posted by fairywings on March 28, 2006, at 23:59:39
I thought that, too, but in a thread last week someone told me that the 4mgs/day I take was a weak dose. It doesn't seem weak to me, and I can't imagine functioning at much more than that, but apparently some people are at much higher doses.
Posted by TylerJ on March 29, 2006, at 9:43:56
In reply to Neighbor who is a teacher Says SSRI's Cause Memory, posted by Phillipa on March 28, 2006, at 12:34:42
> I've never heard of this before but my neighbor from Florida who is a third grade teacher said she heard or read that SSRI's cause memory loss. And she can't remember where she heard or read this. Has anyone else ever heard of this. I haven't. She is on lexapro 10mg and 3mg of xanax and will take up to 6mg of xanax at night if she cant sleep. She just laughs and says well if I cant remember something I tell my Son(grown and married with a child) that it's the medicine. She thinks it's a joke. Well I don't do any of you? Or have any of you heard of this. this must National SSRI bad side effects week. Love Phillipa
Come on now...you can't believe everything someone says, or what you read, or what you heard, etc, etc. Some people find something bad about EVERYTHING! And you know what, if you look hard enough you can too. There is no scientific proof that ssri's cause memory loss!! But, everything has side-effects of some kind...that's just how it is. Even Vitamins can have side effects...
-Vitamin E can elevate blood pressure in hypertensives.
-Choline can deepen the depressive phase of bi-polar depression.
-Vitamin C can reverse the anticoagulant activity of blood thinner in the drug Coumadin.By the way, this list could go on and on....
Tyler
Posted by linkadge on March 29, 2006, at 10:59:54
In reply to Re: Neighbor who is a teacher Says SSRI's Cause Memory » Phillipa, posted by TylerJ on March 29, 2006, at 9:43:56
>There is no scientific proof that ssri's cause >memory loss!! But, everything has side-effects >of some kind...that's just how it is. Even >Vitamins can have side effects...
It has been a documented side effect. Some studies suggest that longer term use of the drugs may lead to more complications. I believe the topic is discussed in the book "Listening to Prozac".
Linkadge
Posted by Jakeman on March 29, 2006, at 11:50:17
In reply to Re: Neighbor who is a teacher Says SSRI's Cause Me » Jakeman, posted by scatterbrained on March 28, 2006, at 20:47:12
> I don't believe that it is so much that the ssri's help with memory but that they help with depression(in some people) which in turn helps with memory.
>
> Is ssri brain growth more pronounced than say trycyclic or maoi brain growth, is there a study?I have not taken the time to conduct a proper literature review. There are many studies, some with conflicting results, and very little has been proven.
It could be that memory improvement is a result of remission. I can only say from my experience that the antidepressants which tend to be activating for me (such as Prozac, Wellburtrin, selegeline) have improved cognitive functioning and memory.
warm regards, Jake
Posted by fairywings on March 29, 2006, at 12:10:51
In reply to Re: Neighbor who is a teacher Says SSRI's Cause Me, posted by Jakeman on March 29, 2006, at 11:50:17
I suppose it's like any other drug...depending on each person, their make-up, chemistry...each drug will have a diff. effect. Some might have memory loss, some might not. Some people can probably handle 6 mg xanax, whereas I'd be completely knocked out. Some people do well on SSRI's where some people don't. I guess that's why there's conflicting evidence?
fw
Posted by TylerJ on March 29, 2006, at 13:14:20
In reply to Re: Neighbor who is a teacher Says SSRI's Cause Memory, posted by linkadge on March 29, 2006, at 10:59:54
> >There is no scientific proof that ssri's cause >memory loss!! But, everything has side-effects >of some kind...that's just how it is. Even >Vitamins can have side effects...
>
> It has been a documented side effect. Some studies suggest that longer term use of the drugs may lead to more complications. I believe the topic is discussed in the book "Listening to Prozac".
>
> Linkadge
>They've also proven that people who suffer from depression and anxiety with or without medication suffer from memory loss. They also know that this illness destroys brain cells, people with chronic dep. with or without meds
suffer from a lowering of their personal I.Q.Tyler
Posted by linkadge on March 29, 2006, at 13:29:59
In reply to Re: Neighbor who is a teacher Says SSRI's Cause Memory » linkadge, posted by TylerJ on March 29, 2006, at 13:14:20
>They've also proven that people who suffer from >depression and anxiety with or without >medication suffer from memory loss. They also >know that this illness destroys brain cells, >people with chronic dep. with or without meds
>suffer from a lowering of their personal I.Q.I know that depression can impact the functionality of the hippocampus. I don't know if the statment could be extended to say that depressed individuals suffer from a lowering of IQ, IQ is not thought to reside in the hippocampus. Do you have any references for that conclusion ?
There has also been debate as to the validity of the assertion that antidepressants can prevent or repair this damamge. Some studies show that antidepressants reduce depression induced hippocampal loss and atropy while other studies suggest that no such conclusion can be made.
It is a similar arugment with schizophrenia. Although the antipsychotics can help symptoms of schizophrenia, they do not really correct or halt the underlying progression of the illness, sometimes they acutally make it worse.
Linkadge
Posted by ed_uk on March 29, 2006, at 13:36:49
In reply to Re: Neighbor who is a teacher Says SSRI's Cause Memory, posted by linkadge on March 29, 2006, at 13:29:59
I have never noticed any memory loss on SSRIs. I do notice a reduction in motivation though, which can impact the ability to learn. Benzos can clearly affect memory. In fact, injectable benzodiazepines are used specifically to create amnesia during unpleasant medical procedures. A high IV dose of midazolam (Versed, Hypnovel) or diazepam (Diazemuls) can cause total amnesia for ~ 15 minutes after the injection. This is useful if a patient is having an endoscopy, for example.
Ed
Posted by Phillipa on March 29, 2006, at 13:46:46
In reply to Re: Neighbor who is a teacher Says SSRI's Cause Memory, posted by ed_uk on March 29, 2006, at 13:36:49
Versed is a benzo? Love PJO
Posted by ed_uk on March 29, 2006, at 14:05:04
In reply to Re: Neighbor who is a teacher Says SSRI's Cause Memory » ed_uk, posted by Phillipa on March 29, 2006, at 13:46:46
Hi,
Yes, Versed is midazolam, a benzo. When injected, diazepam is quite similar to Versed. Oddly, Diazemuls (the non-irritant diazepam injection) is not marketed in the US. Valium injection is irritant to the vein so Versed in preferred. In the UK, both Diazemuls and Versed (Hypnovel here) are widely used in hospitals. Lorazepam (Ativan) and clonazepam (Klonopin, Rivotril) are also given by injection.
Ed xxx
Posted by SLS on March 29, 2006, at 14:09:23
In reply to Re: Neighbor who is a teacher Says SSRI's Cause Memory » Phillipa, posted by ed_uk on March 29, 2006, at 14:05:04
Posted by ed_uk on March 29, 2006, at 15:39:01
In reply to Neighbor who is a teacher Says SSRI's Cause Me :-) (nm) » ed_uk, posted by SLS on March 29, 2006, at 14:09:23
Hi Scott
What did I do LOL?
I could have done with a shot of Versed at work today. It might have created amnesia to the fact that a certain member of staff was being highly irritating.
Ed
Posted by TylerJ on March 30, 2006, at 8:11:13
In reply to Re: Neighbor who is a teacher Says SSRI's Cause Memory, posted by linkadge on March 29, 2006, at 13:29:59
> >They've also proven that people who suffer from >depression and anxiety with or without >medication suffer from memory loss. They also >know that this illness destroys brain cells, >people with chronic dep. with or without meds
> >suffer from a lowering of their personal I.Q.
>
> I know that depression can impact the functionality of the hippocampus. I don't know if the statment could be extended to say that depressed individuals suffer from a lowering of IQ, IQ is not thought to reside in the hippocampus. Do you have any references for that conclusion ?
>
> There has also been debate as to the validity of the assertion that antidepressants can prevent or repair this damamge. Some studies show that antidepressants reduce depression induced hippocampal loss and atropy while other studies suggest that no such conclusion can be made.
>
> It is a similar arugment with schizophrenia. Although the antipsychotics can help symptoms of schizophrenia, they do not really correct or halt the underlying progression of the illness, sometimes they acutally make it worse.
>
>
>
> Linkadge
Yes, I got my information from The Enquirer Magazine..Just kidding. Seriously, I believe I read it at Crazymeds.org.Tyler
Posted by Cairo on March 30, 2006, at 21:58:27
In reply to Neighbor who is a teacher Says SSRI's Cause Memory, posted by Phillipa on March 28, 2006, at 12:34:42
My daughter was on Lexapro and couldn't remember why she'd walk into a room. Also noticed retention of math skills was poor. Raised the dose, memory got worse. Lowered the dose, memory improved. A no-brainer to conclude that Lexapro was at fault. Though I couldn't convince her pdoc of that. Changed docs.
http://www.preskorn.com/columns/0005.html
http://www.gjpsy.uni-goettingen.de/gjp-article-lane2.pdf
http://www.pslgroup.com/dg/132c16.htm
http://www-np.unimaas.nl/PsyPharm/NCDEU/schmitt529.pdf
http://www.mhsource.com/depconsult/dec2004.jhtml?_requestid=511678#Q2
http://www.ascp.com/public/pubs/tcp/1997/oct/ssri.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14965243
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=534840
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=7995797
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15538188
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15387402Cairo
Posted by Jakeman on March 30, 2006, at 22:50:33
In reply to Re: Some articles, posted by Cairo on March 30, 2006, at 21:58:27
> My daughter was on Lexapro and couldn't
Thanks for posting the articles. What treatment is she receiving now?
warm regards, Jake
Posted by Cairo on March 31, 2006, at 12:05:31
In reply to Re: Some articles » Cairo, posted by Jakeman on March 30, 2006, at 22:50:33
She is currently on Zoloft and low dose Seroquel for Social Anxiety, dysthymia and a sleep disorder.
The Zoloft is certainly better than the Lexapro was on memory, but as she is also diagnosed with ADHD and learning and language disabilities, I find it hard to tease out if the Zoloft has some effect on memory. The social anxiety was so bad, that we felt we had no choice but to use meds.
No one wants to try BZD with her, as she is a teenager. I use Klonopin for panic attacks, but find it has a depressogenic effect at doses above 0.5mg and causes bone crushing fatigue at the higher doses. She also has a chronic fatigue type profile. Zoloft doesn't cause fatigue as much as the Lexapro did in her, also.
I would be interested in trying Lyrica with her. I'm on it for Fibromyalgia/Chronic Fatigue, but had to lower the daytime dose to 75mg from 150mg due to it causing too much fatigue and unsteadiness. I'm still getting fatigue in the afternoons, but as it's helping with pain, I'll keep it for now. Cognitively, Lyrica is way better than Neurontin was, though I do notice a little spaciness.
Cairo
> Thanks for posting the articles. What treatment is she receiving now?
>
> warm regards, Jake
Posted by fairywings on March 31, 2006, at 13:17:17
In reply to Re: Some articles » Jakeman, posted by Cairo on March 31, 2006, at 12:05:31
> She is currently on Zoloft and low dose Seroquel for Social Anxiety, dysthymia and a sleep disorder.
Is her psychiatrist a specialist in ADHD? I'm sure you probably already know all of this, and I hope I'm not being too intrusive, but has she been tried on a stimulant? My kids have ADHD and auditory/visual processing disorders too.
>
> The Zoloft is certainly better than the Lexapro was on memory, but as she is also diagnosed with ADHD and learning and language disabilities, She also has a chronic fatigue type profile. Zoloft doesn't cause fatigue as much as the Lexapro did in her
High school is really tough when you have to fight all the issues of an illness too. How old is she? Doesn't seroquel cause weight gain? and isn't it a drug known for making people really tired? Does she get tired during the school day, or have trouble with activities bec. of the meds?
> I would be interested in trying Lyrica with her.Does she have pain too? Poor kid, that would be really hard.
fw
Posted by Laurie Beth on March 31, 2006, at 19:02:08
In reply to Re: Some articles » Cairo, posted by fairywings on March 31, 2006, at 13:17:17
caused some memory deficits for me.
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