![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 28. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by pseudoname on March 7, 2006, at 9:44:03
Anyone thinking of trying the synthetic opioid buprenorphine (Subutex, Suboxone) for depression may not want to hesitate too long. The World Health Organization may recommend that bupe be moved from international CPS-Schedule III (therapeutically useful) to CPS-Schedule II (limited therapeutic value).
The American Psychiatric Association says “the likely result of international rescheduling would be reduced access to buprenorphine for legitimate medical purposes. There is a potential for such a scheduling change to affect domestic drug classification of buprenorphine from [US] Schedule III to [US] Schedule II, which could lead to the ELIMINATION OF OFFICE-BASED BUPRENORPHINE THERAPY and severely restrict treatment access for patients.”
They're talking about its use in office-based addiction therapy, but the re-scheduling could also restrict access to it for depression.
I assume these changes, if enacted, would take a couple years to trickle down to U.S. availability, but a couple years can go by quickly.
Incidentally, the other form of buprenorphine available in the US, the liquid painkiller Buprenex, is a US Schedule V, the LEAST restricted category.
• “APA Opposes WHO Proposal To Tighten Buprenorphine Controls.” Psychiatric News. Mar 3, 2006; 41(5):2 http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/short/41/5/2
Posted by Chairman_MAO on March 7, 2006, at 10:42:46
In reply to buprenorphine re-scheduling?!, posted by pseudoname on March 7, 2006, at 9:44:03
Give me a break! Buprenorphine is one of the safest drugs known to man! "Limited medical value"? That is laughable! About as limited a medical value as cannabis, perhaps.
Amazing how once authorities feel something gets you high, its medical value becomes nullified. Let me get this straight: an opioid that is NEVER fatal in overdose unless combined with a CNS depressant due to its PARTIAL AGONIST EFFECTS and documented WANING ANALGESIA AFTER 3-5 DAYS is supposed to have the abuse liability of MORPHINE?
Perhaps if any of these sniveling, blathering idiots had to deal with any kind of pain themselves, they would think twice about this legislation. However, they will always be assured virtually unlimited access to controlled substances.This is the real reason why opioids are so tightly controlled:
CIA Dope Calypso
by Allen Ginsberg, 1972In nineteen hundred forty-five
China was won by Mao Tse-Tung
Chiang Kai Shek's army ran away
And they're waiting there in Thailand todaySupported by the CIA
Pushing junk down Thailand wayFirst they stole from the Meo Tribes
Up in the hills they started taking bribes
Then they sent their soldiers up to Shan
Collecting opium to send to The ManPushing junk in Bangkok today
Supported by the CIABrought their jam on mule trains down
To Chiang Rai, that's a railroad town
Sold it next to police chief --- (?)
He took it to town on the choo-choo trainTrafficking dope to Bangkok all day
Supported by the CIAThe policeman's name was Mr. Phao
He peddled dope grand scale and how
Chief of border, customs paid
By Central Intelligence's U.S. aidThe whole operation, Newspapers say
Supported by the CIAHe got so sloppy and peddled so loose
He busted himself and cooked his own goose
Took the reward for an opium load
Seizing his own haul, which same he resoldBig time pusher, a decade turned grey
Working for the CIAThe whole operation fell in to chaos
Till U.S. intelligence came in to LaosI'll tell you no lie I'm a true American
Our big pusher there was Phoumi NosavanAll them Princes in a power play
But Phoumi was the man for the CIATouby Lyfong he worked for the French
A big fat man liked to dine & wench
Prince of the Meos he grew black mud
Till opium flowed through the land like a floodCommunists came and chased the French away
So Touby took a job with the CIAAnd his best friend General Vang Pao
Ran the Meo army like a sacred cow
Helicopter smugglers filled Long Cheng's bars
In Xieng Quang province on the Plain of JarsIt started in secret they were fighting yesterday
Clandestine secret army of the US CIAAll through the Sixties the dope flew free
Thru Tan Son Nhut Saigon to Marshall Ky
Air America followed through
Transporting comfiture for President ThieuAll these Dealers were for decades and yesterday
The Indochinese mob of the U.S. CIAOperation Haylift Officer Wm Colby
Saw Marshall Ky fly opium Mr. Mustard told meIndochina desk he was Chief of Dirty Tricks
"Hitch-hiking" with dope pushers was how he got his fixSubsidizing the traffickers to drive the Reds away
Till Colby was the head of the CIA!
---"Babylon system is the vampire, sucking the blood of the sufferers..."
--Bob Marley
Posted by ed_uk on March 7, 2006, at 15:56:39
In reply to buprenorphine re-scheduling?!, posted by pseudoname on March 7, 2006, at 9:44:03
Hi
In the UK, it doesn't really make much difference to doctors or patients whether a drug is schedule II or schedule III. Are things very different in the US?
Ed
Posted by Chairman_MAO on March 7, 2006, at 16:16:26
In reply to Re: buprenorphine re-scheduling?! » pseudoname, posted by ed_uk on March 7, 2006, at 15:56:39
Yes. Schedule III drugs are prescribed rather freely, assuming you aren't wearing any scarlet letters ("substance abuse" history, etc). A doctor can call in a schedule III prescription to the pharmacy, and the patient can receive up to 5 refills. Schedule II prescriptions must be renewed every month and cannot be phoned in. Moreover, many states limit the number of "dosage units" you can receive per schedule II script; for instance, in NJ, I can only get a 30 day supply OR 120 dosage units of d-amphetamine 10mg tabs--regardless of what my doctor wants. I have to return with a new script LESS THAN ONCE PER MONTH to take 60mg/day d-amphetamine, which is within the manufacturer's stated maximum dose! This legislation makes even less sense when one considers that Adderall comes in 30mg tablets, so if you want 25mg d-amphetamine per dose cut with 5mg l-amphetamine, you are allowed up to 100mg/day d-amphetamine (assuimg the doctor writes for 4 doses per day). How does this affect the availability of crank on the street? My pharmacist agrees with me and only could offer that "they [legislators] have to justify their salaries somehow".
Posted by ed_uk on March 7, 2006, at 17:00:38
In reply to Re: buprenorphine re-scheduling?! » ed_uk, posted by Chairman_MAO on March 7, 2006, at 16:16:26
Hi Chairman
>A doctor can call in a schedule III prescription to the pharmacy
That's interesting. In the UK, all prescriptions must be in writing, except in an emergency. This applies to all drugs, not just controlled drugs.
>Moreover, many states limit the number of "dosage units" you can receive per schedule II script
How ridiculous. No such restrictions exist here. A doctor could prescribe 1000 tablets if they wanted to- but they don't ;-)
>Schedule II prescriptions must be renewed every month
Sch II prescriptions are valid for 13 weeks here.
Regards
Ed
Posted by jerrympls on March 7, 2006, at 18:44:49
In reply to Re: buprenorphine re-scheduling?! » Chairman_MAO, posted by ed_uk on March 7, 2006, at 17:00:38
Stupid moves like this from the FDA really bother me - don't they have anything better to focus on than making useful medications less available for those who need them!? Bupreorphine should be schedule IV if anything - I can't believe they want to move it to Schedule II!??!? It's abuse potential hardly achives that of Klonopin or Ambien. But when someone says that magic word out loud "OPIATE!" It's like the medical paparazzi jump out of your medicine cabinet! ARGH!!!! Why don't they make SSRIs controlled drugs? If anything causes dependence and severe withdrawl - it's these cookie cutter SSRIs that don't do crap.
UGH!!!!!!!
Posted by yxibow on March 7, 2006, at 21:56:50
In reply to Re: buprenorphine re-scheduling?! » Chairman_MAO, posted by ed_uk on March 7, 2006, at 17:00:38
> Hi Chairman
>
> >A doctor can call in a schedule III prescription to the pharmacy
>
> That's interesting. In the UK, all prescriptions must be in writing, except in an emergency. This applies to all drugs, not just controlled drugs.What a pain that must be. You can electronically transmit all schedule III-V drugs in California, but records must be kept and there are various limits. Hand prescriptions were changed in this state as well beginning January 1. A special expensive tamper resistant form replaced triplicates.
"California law requires prescribers of any Schedule II through V controlled substance to obtain and use new tamper-resistant prescription forms ordered only from state-approved security printers. The new tamper-resistant forms replaced triplicate prescription forms in 2005."
more information for the bored...
http://www.ag.ca.gov/bne/prescriptions.htm
I'm sure other states have similar laws. Its aggravating for the legitimate users.
And then there is the idiotic put the Sudafed behind the counter here pseudo-schedule V because methheads are blowing up houses, followed by the largely ineffective in front of the counter Sudafed PE, which is useless for sinus sufferers compared to the original which is only mildly effective actually, from what I have heard.
Posted by yxibow on March 7, 2006, at 22:01:02
In reply to Re: buprenorphine re-scheduling?!, posted by jerrympls on March 7, 2006, at 18:44:49
> Stupid moves like this from the FDA really bother me - don't they have anything better to focus on than making useful medications less available for those who need them!? Bupreorphine should be schedule IV if anything - I can't believe they want to move it to Schedule II!??!? It's abuse potential hardly achives that of Klonopin or Ambien. But when someone says that magic word out loud "OPIATE!" It's like the medical paparazzi jump out of your medicine cabinet! ARGH!!!! Why don't they make SSRIs controlled drugs? If anything causes dependence and severe withdrawl - it's these cookie cutter SSRIs that don't do crap.
>
> UGH!!!!!!!
SSRIs can in some people "poop out" over time, perhaps leading to experimental dosing of larger amounts, but they, just like all Schedule V drugs are tested in Phase II and Phase III trials for dependence. And probably earlier in vivo. They may not work for you, but that doesnt mean to associate them as therefore a schedulable drug. Its a non-sequitor, I don't mean any harsheness.Legitimate use of opiates has its uses but they can be diverted to synthesize other compounds. Thats why they're scheduled, among other reasons. And I know its a pain, for those who have terrrible pains, literally.
Pain relief is a major issue in medicine. It goes to the hippocratic oath in a sense of do no harm, therefore though shall keep thine patient out of harm and pain.
Posted by jerrympls on March 7, 2006, at 22:31:50
In reply to Re: buprenorphine re-scheduling?! » jerrympls, posted by yxibow on March 7, 2006, at 22:01:02
> > Stupid moves like this from the FDA really bother me - don't they have anything better to focus on than making useful medications less available for those who need them!? Bupreorphine should be schedule IV if anything - I can't believe they want to move it to Schedule II!??!? It's abuse potential hardly achives that of Klonopin or Ambien. But when someone says that magic word out loud "OPIATE!" It's like the medical paparazzi jump out of your medicine cabinet! ARGH!!!! Why don't they make SSRIs controlled drugs? If anything causes dependence and severe withdrawl - it's these cookie cutter SSRIs that don't do crap.
> >
> > UGH!!!!!!!
>
>
> SSRIs can in some people "poop out" over time, perhaps leading to experimental dosing of larger amounts, but they, just like all Schedule V drugs are tested in Phase II and Phase III trials for dependence. And probably earlier in vivo. They may not work for you, but that doesnt mean to associate them as therefore a schedulable drug. Its a non-sequitor, I don't mean any harsheness.
>
> Legitimate use of opiates has its uses but they can be diverted to synthesize other compounds. Thats why they're scheduled, among other reasons. And I know its a pain, for those who have terrrible pains, literally.
>
> Pain relief is a major issue in medicine. It goes to the hippocratic oath in a sense of do no harm, therefore though shall keep thine patient out of harm and pain.
I was being facetious. I know plenty about SSRIs and opiates thanks.
Posted by River1924 on March 8, 2006, at 2:28:48
In reply to Re: buprenorphine re-scheduling?! » Chairman_MAO, posted by ed_uk on March 7, 2006, at 17:00:38
I know very little about buprenorphine. I do know stimulants like Ritalin or dexedrine have different laws state to state. When I lived in Chicago, a doctor would mail me a prescription for ritalin and it had to be taken to the pharmacy in 3-7 days (according to the date on the script.) (Mail in Chicago can take a long time... it is almost like Italy :) and it was easier to go to the office and pick it up in person because the scripts would be out of date by the time the mail came.) In Wisconsin, I have 60 days. (My doctor works out of Illinois but I live and go to pharmacies in Wisconsin so those are the laws followd.) With amphetamines, one can never get more than 30 days worth (although I've never heard of a limit on the dose such as the one mentioned ealier in the thread.) A friend of mine worked in a doctor's office and ended up in jail for calling in prescriptions for xanax for herself. She didn't get caught for a long time. I've often wondered how pharmacies know if a written presciption is real or if a call or fax is real? It seems like it would be easy to fake.
Posted by pseudoname on March 8, 2006, at 7:48:05
In reply to Re: buprenorphine re-scheduling?! » ed_uk, posted by River1924 on March 8, 2006, at 2:28:48
In my state, all scripts are just on regular prescription pads, but for Schedule II & III drugs, you have to give your Social Security number. Any doctor in the state can then call in or go online or something and find out any Scheduled drug prescriptions from any doctor that you've gotten filled anywhere in the state. (They're supposed to have to *be* your doctor in order to get this info, but I doubt anyone checks.) This is to combat drug-seeking etc.
Posted by sukarno on March 8, 2006, at 7:55:55
In reply to Re: buprenorphine re-scheduling?! » ed_uk, posted by River1924 on March 8, 2006, at 2:28:48
"I've often wondered how pharmacies know if a written presciption is real or if a call or fax is real? It seems like it would be easy to fake."
Ah, the US and their "War on Drugs". I'm sorry to hear about her going to jail. How much time did she spend in jail?
Controlled substances are supposed to be phoned in or written with a DEA number attached and this is unique to the physician. I think that each doctor has their own DEA number to track their prescription of scheduled drugs.
She could have been caught because she didn't know the DEA number.
It's my own personal opinion that nonviolent drug "offenders" should not go to jail, but rather treatment centers....or scratch that, just let them off with a fine and send them to a physician who will prescribe them Xanax if they really need it.
America is a great country, but their drug policy is misguided and assumes the American people are guilty until proven innocent.
Posted by River1924 on March 8, 2006, at 10:35:44
In reply to Re: buprenorphine re-scheduling?! » River1924, posted by sukarno on March 8, 2006, at 7:55:55
Well, the DEA number isn't hard to find since all my doctors have it printed on their scripts.
But, as for my friend, xanax seemed to be the only thing that helped her but she never had a "diagnosis" that would allow it. SSRI would give her such bad insomnia (perhaps hypomania) that she would go weeks with only an hour of sleep per night. Her body was very eccentric in its reactions. Low doses of lithium almost killed her. Tylenol would make her (drowsy (but not sleepy) for 24 hours.) Looking back, she got so little sleep that she had hypnogogic hullucinations and waking REM periods.
Her mother was a valium addict and her sister was an alcoholic and she had psychological problems (probably from being raped by her stepfather from ages 4 to 7.) All that gave doctors reasons not to treat her. Zoloft and counseling was about it for her. Plus, she seemed jolly and was funny even when she was suicidal. {I have the benefit of looking stern even when I'm happy... which doesn't help socially but it helps in the doctors office.} Plus, I've been told by women that male psychiatrists tend to dismiss women's problems. We lost touch after she married a Masonic homophobic sexist 50 year old man when she was 23. That was just too creepy for me considering her history.
Oddly, I hate to sound like the guy who runs the biopsychiatry-mood brightener site, xanax worked too well for her. It made her stable, sleep normally, and it made her happy. I think doctors worry about that. They are looking for Freud's everyday normal unhappiness. :<> Of course now that she was caught writing her own scripts, she'll never get it.
Posted by ed_uk on March 8, 2006, at 15:59:04
In reply to Re: buprenorphine re-sched and scripts et alia » ed_uk, posted by yxibow on March 7, 2006, at 21:56:50
Hi Yxi
>What a pain that must be.
We're used to it I guess. All NHS prescriptions are written/printed on a standard form which makes them pretty easy to read. Most prescriptions are computer generated ie. they are printed on the standard form using a laser printer. Some prescriptions are still hand-written, including most prescriptions written in hospital clinics.
The NHS prescription forms are unique. The paper is special, a bit like a bank note! Makes them difficult to forge. Private (ie. non-NHS) prescriptions can be written on any piece of paper. I once saw a private prescription written in a space between the waveforms on an ECG (EKG) printout! It wasn't even the right patients ECG lol.
Regards
Eddy
Posted by yxibow on March 10, 2006, at 2:30:21
In reply to Re: buprenorphine re-sched and scripts et alia » yxibow, posted by ed_uk on March 8, 2006, at 15:59:04
> Hi Yxi
>
> >What a pain that must be.
>
> We're used to it I guess. All NHS prescriptions are written/printed on a standard form which makes them pretty easy to read. Most prescriptions are computer generated ie. they are printed on the standard form using a laser printer. Some prescriptions are still hand-written, including most prescriptions written in hospital clinics.
>
> The NHS prescription forms are unique. The paper is special, a bit like a bank note! Makes them difficult to forge. Private (ie. non-NHS) prescriptions can be written on any piece of paper. I once saw a private prescription written in a space between the waveforms on an ECG (EKG) printout! It wasn't even the right patients ECG lol.
>
> Regards
>
> Eddy
Interesting Ed -- I think that has less to do with diversion then, than cost saving measures by NHS. So NHS has similar, even tougher prescription pads than what we have here in California, probably so that a law breaking individual or even a private practitioner can't write up prescriptions for extremely expensive prescriptions that are only covered under certain circumstances.As for the private practitioner, that sounds like writing on the back of an envelope -- definately wouldn't exist here even if we did have some form of national coverage in this country due to our constant big brother attitude towards Scheduling (of course some of it is proper, like not having apartment complexes blown up by meth labs, but I shall leave the politics there.)
Posted by ed_uk on March 10, 2006, at 14:50:12
In reply to Re: buprenorphine re-sched and scripts et alia » ed_uk, posted by yxibow on March 10, 2006, at 2:30:21
Hi Yxi :)
>cost saving measures
I don't understand Yxi. How does it save money?
>As for the private practitioner, that sounds like writing on the back of an envelope
Yes, they could write it on the back of an envelope if they wanted to! - provided that all the legal requirements were fulfilled eg. it was signed by the prescriber etc.
Regards
Ed
Posted by yxibow on March 11, 2006, at 1:53:08
In reply to Re: buprenorphine re-sched and scripts et alia » yxibow, posted by ed_uk on March 10, 2006, at 14:50:12
> Hi Yxi :)
>
> >cost saving measures
>
> I don't understand Yxi. How does it save money?While a startup cost more inititially expensive I would gander that one side benefit is that it prevents diversion from NHS resources by false prescriptions, assuring that only the proper prescription will be accepted.
Posted by ed_uk on March 11, 2006, at 12:56:20
In reply to Re: buprenorphine re-sched and scripts et alia » ed_uk, posted by yxibow on March 11, 2006, at 1:53:08
Hi Yxi
I don't think we have many fake prescriptions in the UK. Occasionally we get an 'alert' that a doctor's prescription pad has gone missing though! - so we can be on the lookout for unusual prescriptions!
Regards
Ed
Posted by tessellated on March 12, 2006, at 15:25:28
In reply to Re: buprenorphine re-sched and scripts et alia » yxibow, posted by ed_uk on March 11, 2006, at 12:56:20
are not scripts at this point mostly computerized?
i'm in the states, and just made the assumption.
Posted by yxibow on March 12, 2006, at 15:31:10
In reply to Re: buprenorphine re-sched and scripts et alia, posted by tessellated on March 12, 2006, at 15:25:28
> are not scripts at this point mostly computerized?
> i'm in the states, and just made the assumption.
>Here in the US it varies from state to state but basing on California Schedule III-V medications may be phoned in with restrictions on refills and extra record keeping. They can also be written on pads (V) and special tamper proof pads (III-IV) and hand carried in with also some restrictions on refills, which I forget if they are the same or not, but the record keeping is already there.
Posted by pseudoname on March 12, 2006, at 15:34:23
In reply to Re: buprenorphine re-sched and scripts et alia, posted by tessellated on March 12, 2006, at 15:25:28
> are not scripts at this point mostly computerized?
> i'm in the states...I have never had a computerized script from any provider. I live in the midwest and have recently been to two university clinics, a hospital, a multi-branch clinic, etc.
Posted by tessellated on March 15, 2006, at 1:53:24
In reply to computerized scripts » tessellated, posted by pseudoname on March 12, 2006, at 15:34:23
i was told at one point that there is some form of computer system that keeps track of scripts in order to inhibit doctor shopping. its suprising the pads are still used, considering you could forge one with almost any inkjet. thats why the computer system seems critical inhibit illegitimate scripts.
Posted by pseudoname on March 15, 2006, at 10:36:34
In reply to Re: computerized scripts » pseudoname, posted by tessellated on March 15, 2006, at 1:53:24
> some form of computer system that keeps track of scripts in order to inhibit doctor shopping
Oh. I thought you meant "computerized", like, no paper or telephone, but just sent by computer. Or Blackberry, LOL! I'm sure it's coming.
The anti-doctor shopping computer systems in the U.S. are spotty and are managed by state governments. According to the DEA, the 26 states that currently have prescription monitoring programs are:
Alabama
California
Hawaii
Idaho
Illinois
Indiana
Kentucky
Maine
Massachusetts
Michigan
Mississippi
Nevada
New Mexico
New York
North Dakota
Ohio
Oklahoma
Pennsylvania
Rhode Island
Tennessee
Texas
Utah
Virginia
Washington
West Virginia
WyomingMore FAQs about them here: http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/faq/rx_monitor.htm
Posted by mike99 on March 15, 2006, at 17:54:52
In reply to 26 prescription-monitoring states » tessellated, posted by pseudoname on March 15, 2006, at 10:36:34
I really dislike the connotation 'doctor shopping' has gotten. Sure some do it for inappropriate reasons, but many don't.
I have no problem admitting I have and will continue if necessary to doctor shop.
Perhaps big brother is getting a bit too big.
Posted by jerrympls on March 16, 2006, at 2:38:06
In reply to what's so wrong with doctor shopping?, posted by mike99 on March 15, 2006, at 17:54:52
> I really dislike the connotation 'doctor shopping' has gotten. Sure some do it for inappropriate reasons, but many don't.
>
> I have no problem admitting I have and will continue if necessary to doctor shop.
>
> Perhaps big brother is getting a bit too big.I agree. Especially for those who have hard to treat depressions, etc - one HAS to doctor shop because we all know there are some horrific docs who somehow got through medical school only to see patients suffer at their own hands.
Back to hard to treat cases - you've got to doctor shop. Why? Because there's only one person who can truely be your advocate and that's you. Most of us on this board have done more research into meds and med combos than a 4th years psych. resident - and even many professional pdocs. WE know what works and what doesn't work for us (med wise) and we get to the point where some really off-off-off-lable meds NEED to be employed. So we bring our printouts of various studies, etc. to each doctor appointment and all we have to do is catch the initial expression of the doctor glancing at our research to know if he/she is threatened by it or open and willing to listen and learn. Rarely do we find an open-minded/talented/patient-oriented/not on the defensive doc on our first or even 5th new doc. We have to make a HUGE effort to travel, battle insurance, battle our illnesses to find a good doctor- THUS WE DOCTOR SHOP.
Now I know the original tone of this thread and the mention of doctor shopping prottained to those who go to different docs to get multiple Rx's of certain scheduled meds. So I may be ogg on a tangent with my view of doctor shopping. Either way, whether it be to obtain multiple Rx's or to "try-out" or interview doctors until we find one that's human - both acts are going to be seen as suspicious. Meaning - if I travel within a 100 mile radius to "interview" 4 diffferent pdocs - that's seen as "bad" doctor shopping - even tho it's not to obtain multiple scripts. Am I making any sense?
I just think it ridiculous that we're chastised for tryign to find decent medical care. Therapists, counselors, friends, etc are always telling us we have to advocate for ourselves! Stick up for ourselves! And then we do and are almost categorized as if we're criminals.
It took me 7 psychiatrsits to finally find hope in the 8th. Psychiatrists are always telling us to educate ourselves about our meds and our illnesses - but when we show signs of intelligence it's seen as disrespect towards the doctor. Plus THEY are the ones who keep saying "Psychiatry isn't an exact science - it's an art."
And one last thing - what REALLY irriates me is when pdocs don't keep up on the latest treatments/meds, etc. They rely on the continuing falacy of the serotonin-imbalance ONLY model for depression. 90% of pdocs out there have no clue about thestudies showing the role of hyperactivity of the LHPA axis in major depression and other psychiatric disorders. Treatments employing antiglucocorticoid meds (ketoconazole) have shown to bring a complete remission of symptoms in those who are treatment-resistant (see http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/cgi/content/full/61/5/698).
OK -- I've ranted enough. Thanks for listening.
Jerry
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.