![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 119 to 143 of 143. Go back in thread:
Posted by dancingstar on February 18, 2006, at 1:58:11
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Kneeko on February 16, 2006, at 5:54:03
Once the drug has hurt one as badly as many of us have been hurt -- and many have been hurt so much worse than I have -- we don't want to see anyone else ever again damaged as a result of having taken it. Even one lost life is too many. One life in pain as a result of having taking a drug that unknowingly harms that person is too many when the drug company knows the possibilites of these dangers and fails to adequately warn the the public and implies that their drug is inherently safe, no matter what good that drug may do for others. And who even knows what dangers these others will face down the line if the whole truth is not being told about the dangers of a drug in the first place?
If Effexor is to remain on the market at all, in my opinion its use should be strictly limited, and patients and their families warned about how dangerous it can be. As it stands now, it is being prescribed by all sorts of doctors throughout the medical community and handed out somewhat freely.
Posted by lifetime on February 18, 2006, at 2:01:39
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by simon levane on February 17, 2006, at 19:00:46
Dear Simon,
I would like to try to make several points perfectly clear. The first being I am not faulting you or anyone for what was done or not done. I feel for you and I can empathize with the tragedy and the sense that you believe you could have done something. The fact is, from my personal experiences and knowledge; one cannot prevent a determined individual from taking his/her own life. My spouse has attempted suicide seven times and while I may be more knowledgeable about depression than most folks I could not prevent those attempts. As I stated previously, I was a former DBSA facilitator. I also lost a number of close friends to suicide as well as group participants who suffered from mood disorders. In many instances I (we) were aware the individual(s) were experiencing suicidal ideations. In several instances we acted by having the person hospitalized in order to intervene (in the state of Florida there is the Baker Act which allows the individual to be confined for 72 hours of observation, against their will, if the individual is deemed a threat to his or her self or anyone else) and yet some of these same individuals were unfortunately successful in their later attempts.
I am not trained or knowledgeable in how to lend support to those who are grieving under these unusual circumstances other than to express my sincere condolences and to share some of my personal experiences. Certainly, if you knew you could’ve acted and tried to intervene but the point I am trying to make is there are times when one knows as I do and yet I have been powerless to prevent the act. I would only share with you my belief that beating oneself up is counterproductive and while we all appear to see faults in the system, doctors, medications, treatments, ourselves etc I prefer to take what I consider a positive and more productive approach and that is to try and share and educate especially since I am still an active support person and health care advocate to my spouse. I no longer participate in many of my former advocacy and support rolls quite simply because it just took too much out of me so I now spend some of my time sharing and advocating through websites and message forums of this kind.
I shall also add that my brother-in-law also committed a slow suicide through the use of drugs and alcohol and yet all were powerless to prevent the act.
I am also not here defending anyone’s physician. I am here to state from my knowledge they are not Gods and also from my knowledge they are all not equally knowledgeable. From my personal experiences many doctors do not spend equal time studying case histories etc and they have been known to make mistakes and in some instances fatal mistakes.
One last point I would like to make. Knowing that which I do about depression I try to share with those not as knowledgeable what I believe is the unfortunate circumstances that when treating depression the reality is that it is in my opinion a “Trail and Error Approach to Wellness.” Since each individual responds differently there is absolutely no way of knowing in advance which will or will not respond to any medication and/or therapy and the extent or severity to which any individual will experience side-effects and/or contraindications. To which I shall also add from my research the many conflicting research studies on medications and various therapies as I have already cited for the other young man. I also noted the fact that while there were several tragic results attributed to Effexor XR on this forum my spouse had a successful period using very high dosages of the drug without side-effects and was also able to withdraw without any side-effects also contrary to other experiences shared here. I would also add that over the years we have been through the pharmacopeia of medications trying to maintain my spouse’s wellness. While some medications proved beneficial eventually she was refractory to most. While my spouse has had some truly bad experiences with several medications I do not condemn or advocate for the banning of any drug simply because I am also aware others have benefited. This same approach applies to ECT. While there are individuals advocating for banning the therapy I oppose such a stance simply because I am aware it benefited my spouse and others and therefore I personally prefer to educate by way of sharing our experiences and knowledge.
So again I share with you my condolences knowing that even if you did everything correctly you still may have been powerless to prevent the situation.
I wish you peace and only good and pleasant memories of your beloved daughter.
Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com.
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 18, 2006, at 4:08:03
In reply to Re: Please be civil » gardenergirl, posted by lifetime on February 17, 2006, at 0:07:16
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 18, 2006, at 4:19:38
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » lifetime, posted by linkadge on February 17, 2006, at 18:37:09
> missing the point
> Trying to blame these "devastated" parents
> very insensitive in my oppinion.As gg said, this is a sensitive topic and emotions can run high, but please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused.
Please also don't take this personally, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by simon levane on February 18, 2006, at 16:37:57
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » simon levane, posted by lifetime on February 18, 2006, at 2:01:39
Thanks for your response Herb...
While I do agree with you that there are many cases in which a person who intends suicide finally succeeds, and there are also cases in which someone completes suicide without warning -- there are also so many cases in which our loved ones could have been saved if only we had known or had better education about suicide risk. I don't recall anyone suggesting that a particular anti-depressant drug be removed from the market. Even the recognized activist researchers in this this area who have been warning about these drugs for years, such as David Healy and Joseph Glenmullen, have never said that the drugs should be banned. I don't think it is a question of whether these drugs are useful for many patients in a carefully supervised plan of care. Glenmullen wrote a recent book called "The Anti-depressant Solution" in which he describes the risks that are so often not told to patients. Healey had an appointment to the University of Toronto in Canada to head a department for psychiatric research, but as he spoke up about Prozac, and one of the key funders of research at the University was one of the major drug manufacturers, his appointment was cancelled. He sued and won a substantial settlement (though part of the settlement was that the details were kept private - not unusual in such cases). It is generally known that this had to do with anti-depressants and it seems that the university did not want to lose the funding.
I know of a friend's spouse who is on a low dose of Effexor that helps her a lot, but she is not an adolescent, young adult, and in her case, her family was kept well appraised of the drug in terms of benefit and risk.
I cannot help but feel guilty and regretful that I did not research my daughter's illness, that I did not ask more questions about her medications. As I wrote, this omission on my part has cost me a price beyond imagination in sorrow and pain.
I can only forgive myself in the context of how difficult it was coping.. and being in the centre of things with my child, I could not see the risk. It is very easy to be upset with a young adult child who is acting out in a variety of ways. I was in the typical "sandwich" generation between an elderly parent and a troubled young adult child. All roads led to me. I also cannot excuse myself for my own flaws.. and we all have flaws, but thank goodness most people do not experience such an outcome.
I think that the main point that both DM and I are making is that the medical system failed our children and failed us, and it is clear, has failed a lot of people in the area of psychiatric drugs.
That is the point we are making here. So many mistakes... Devastated Mom lost her beloved son because her family doctor seemed to prescribe Effexor in a truly lackadaisical manner.. imagine the doctor saying, "Oh,, you feel down... here, take this.. make you feel better. No harm" and in the case of my daughter so many many mistakes of care... too many to write here.
When I learned that the warnings about Effexor have been on the label in some manner since 1999, it made me want to scream. And at end, all of these doctors basically just shrug it off by the classical justification "Depressed people kill themselves" and that excuses the possible risk of the anti-depressant.
Both DM's son and my daughter are classical cases of impulse acts caused by anti-depressants, because both of them were kids who had a lot to live for. Neither of us can prove that it was the Effexor, but if there was a risk for DM's son, then his family should have been told and could have been told with his permission. In my daughter's case, the multiplicity of errors are so many that I don't know what to say. The only way this can be prevented in the future is through proper education of doctors, of family, of all the caregivers. I just lived in this illusion that my beloved child could not do this to herself or to me. I may have been upset at her often, but I was there .... and I needed help to cope with her, and if there was anything that I needed most of all, it was an understanding of the risk, and that the medical caregivers themselves had properly shared her medical history to help us help her. Instead, everyone just minimized and gave her little attention, and I could not believe that she would do this. Someone recently asked me how I was doing and I told him that I lived in agony. He said... "well life must go on".. and I said to him.. "could you imagine one of your children taking their own life?"... When I said that, I could see his face scrunch up and it told me that even the thought of that was so horrible that he wanted to block it out.
I cannot write of this as well as those many concerned professionals in health care and social work. Some doctors just prescribe these drugs without much consideration of risk. Ritalin is another case that is hugely overprescribed to "manage" kids... Most of the kids on this drug probably do not need it.
My daughter's case could read in a text book about all the wrong things that should NOT be done to look after an adolsecent with Borderline Personality Disorder. Her death was the outcome of risk factors that were simply not explained to me or her mother. The Effexor was just the tipping point that allowed the total risk factors to kill my child. But the case of DM's son and the anecdotal testaments of those who have used this drug speak so loudly about doctors stopping and thinking before they prescribe these drugs. I heard a psychiatrist justify his prescribing the drug by stating he gave it to hundreds of people without any harmful effects. Sounds so easy unless one becomes the exception case - and loses a 20 year old daughter to suicide.
Her life plays over in my head and I struggle to somehow live, because I have the loss and the pain and torment of my own stupidity and how I duped myself into thinking she was not at risk.
I could have researched her illness and kept better track myself, but I simply was fooled by the lack of concern of doctors,a statement by the specialist that with the Effexor she would be OK and my own angst about her behaviours. You see, for me in my day to day interaction with her, she was not really mentally ill, she just was my kid who was troubled and who always played me to get what she wanted, and used to laugh about how she could persuade me to get what she wanted. What I didn't realize is that she had become an addict, and the medical caregivers didn't see it either when they should have known if they had been properly educated in the drugs they were prescribing. The risk therefore was multiplied, and all who knew her truly believe that her suicide was an impulse act facilitated by the Effexor and her drug abuse. Yes, doctors are human of course, and they are prone to errors as well, but there must be a basic standard of care that seems to be missing. Proper advice to patients and family caregivers within the context of risk factors, and proper medical history disclosure to enable correct diagnosis. In the other medical specialties this seems to happen as so many of the procedures are based on solid scientific diagnostic evidence, but in the case of psychiatry, this is far from being the case. There needs to be more effort to develop diagnostics that are more than "guesswork" by one or other psychiatrist. And the knowledge of psychiatrists about treatment is also very suspect. This is all the more reason that psychiatric drugs should not be prescribed without a proper assessement and disclosure, and clear warnings about risks. This should not be left to chance. It is truly back to that essential medical principal "DO NO HARM".
Simon
Posted by dancingstar on February 18, 2006, at 16:53:57
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » lifetime, posted by simon levane on February 18, 2006, at 16:37:57
Beautifully written, Simon. Made me cry.
I know that the pain is still too fresh and hurts too badly to cope with doing much right now, but I hope that some day you will go on to help shed light on this problem so that other families can be helped. You are a smart, articulate, wise man, Simon, with a lot to give. Hang in there.
Posted by simon levane on February 18, 2006, at 17:06:30
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » lifetime, posted by linkadge on February 17, 2006, at 18:37:09
I fully agree with you Linkadge, but I think that Lifetime did not understand the implication of his post. I think he does understand that now, and did not mean hurt to us.
This is a learning process.. for me and DM and for other parents who have lost children to suicide, the penalty we have to live with is beyond comprehension. For DM, this was something completely out of the sky as if lightning had struck her son without warning. For me, it had years of complexity, but still, it should not have happened. Your sharing of your own experiences with both Effexor and Ritalin I hope serves to help others, and educate. You are lucky that you got through it as you stated.
We sure hope you are not using any drugs any more. I used to be a heavy smoker, and I stopped 15 years ago. One of the reasons was that I did not want my daughter to lose her father at a young age. I still am a non smoker in spite of everything. I could easily start again, but apart from the cost, it would be as if I was betraying my daughter cause I know she would not have wanted me to start again.
Simon> >While I cannot do anything to save or help those >parents whose children have past there maybe a >parent intelligent enough to question and read >before blindly accepting and proceeding just >because a doctor said something.
>
>
> I think you are missing the point here. Trying to blame these "devastated" parents even more by suggesting that they were blind is very insensitive in my oppinion. The only reason these parents were "blind" was because of the current state of drug laws.
>
> This is not about patients *chosing* to make uninformed decisions. This is about the fact that information is not readily available, and that it is actively downplayed by drug companies in order to maximize drug profits.
>
>
>
> Linkadge
>
>
>
>
>
Posted by Devastated Mother on February 18, 2006, at 17:23:56
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » lifetime, posted by simon levane on February 18, 2006, at 16:37:57
Simon and Herb,
Simon, you are right that no one is suggesting that effexor is not a good drug for some people. I think the bottom line is this: DO NO HARM requires following the guidelines on the insert. It means that the prescribing doctor has some obligation to inform the family about the potential dangers of the drug their loved one is taking. In this case, assuming depression, it is absolutely ludicrous to expect the patient to tell others that "the drug I am on says I might become suicidal, so please watch me." OK, I can't even imagine saying that to my best friend, and I am not depressed. Except when I think about the insensitive, uncaring doctor who ignored the basic needs for care that my son had, and who might as well have held a gun to his head.
Simon, I applaud you for occasionally telling people around you that you are not going to be like them any more. I understand that very well. This has changed everyone who knew my son, for life. My remaining son, my daughter, my husband, me, and countless other relatives, including my mother who loved him dearly.
The one thing I have learned from this horrible life tragedy is that I must always ask for what I need, and there is not enough time for telling half truths. Life is too short, so I am brutally honest, even when my honesty might hurt. So, when you hurt, Simon, it does not help to try to hide it, unless that serves some purpose you might have (for example a person with whom you have a surface relationship who does not deserve this level of intimacy--interesting that I am willing to say these things here, where I know none of you really except Simon...). If people think it is time to get over it, they just don't get it. There is no getting over it. There is no healing. There may be a diminishing of the pain to a managable level. But I think of my son every moment of every day. Every day, I think of the grandchildren I will not have, of the uncle he will not be for my other children, of the cousin he was to many wonderful children who loved him dearly, and who were so hurt by his passing. I think of how excited he was to learn new things, and how creative and excited he was about life. So, no, world, we will never be what we were. So don't ask us to be. Don't be surprised when we cry for seemingly no reason at all. Our very being has been defiled, and we are in a place so agonizing you cannot imagine it.
Posted by linkadge on February 18, 2006, at 18:04:13
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » linkadge, posted by simon levane on February 18, 2006, at 17:06:30
"We sure hope you are not using any drugs any more"
Just to clarify, I always used drugs as prescribed. The crashing I got from ritalin/effexor, was crashing after theraputic doses wore off.
For the most part I have been off drugs, but I do like to stay connected with doctors since sometimes I might need a sleeping pill or the like.
People need to hear real stories. If people only believe what a doctor tells them about a drug, then they won't be hearing the whole story.
Linkadge
Posted by Devastated Mother on February 19, 2006, at 4:14:54
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by linkadge on February 18, 2006, at 18:04:13
My son was taking the effexor exactly as prescribed. The coroner checked for appropriate traces in his system. So sometimes, even though you are taking drugs exactly the way the doctor prescribed them, they can be deadly.
When you know all the risks of the particular drug you are taking, then you can, of course, take them more effectively. The withdrawal effects are listed right on the insert, so I assume you knew what you would be facing before starting to go off them.????
DM
> "We sure hope you are not using any drugs any more"
>
> Just to clarify, I always used drugs as prescribed. The crashing I got from ritalin/effexor, was crashing after theraputic doses wore off.
>
> For the most part I have been off drugs, but I do like to stay connected with doctors since sometimes I might need a sleeping pill or the like.
>
> People need to hear real stories. If people only believe what a doctor tells them about a drug, then they won't be hearing the whole story.
>
>
>
> Linkadge
>
>
>
>
>
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 19, 2006, at 10:25:34
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » lifetime, posted by simon levane on February 18, 2006, at 16:37:57
> Glenmullen wrote a recent book called "The Anti-depressant Solution" in which he describes the risks that are so often not told to patients.
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book, movie, or music without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
Posted by fenix on February 20, 2006, at 9:26:29
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » lifetime, posted by simon levane on February 18, 2006, at 16:37:57
> Thanks for your response Herb...
> While I do agree with you that there are many cases in which a person who intends suicide finally succeeds, and there are also cases in which someone completes suicide without warning -- there are also so many cases in which our loved ones could have been saved if only we had known or had better education about suicide risk. I don't recall anyone suggesting that a particular anti-depressant drug be removed from the market. Even the recognized activist researchers in this this area who have been warning about these drugs for years, such as David Healy and Joseph Glenmullen, have never said that the drugs should be banned. I don't think it is a question of whether these drugs are useful for many patients in a carefully supervised plan of care. Glenmullen wrote a recent book called "The Anti-depressant Solution" in which he describes the risks that are so often not told to patients. Healey had an appointment to the University of Toronto in Canada to head a department for psychiatric research, but as he spoke up about Prozac, and one of the key funders of research at the University was one of the major drug manufacturers, his appointment was cancelled. He sued and won a substantial settlement (though part of the settlement was that the details were kept private - not unusual in such cases). It is generally known that this had to do with anti-depressants and it seems that the university did not want to lose the funding.
> I know of a friend's spouse who is on a low dose of Effexor that helps her a lot, but she is not an adolescent, young adult, and in her case, her family was kept well appraised of the drug in terms of benefit and risk.
> I cannot help but feel guilty and regretful that I did not research my daughter's illness, that I did not ask more questions about her medications. As I wrote, this omission on my part has cost me a price beyond imagination in sorrow and pain.
> I can only forgive myself in the context of how difficult it was coping.. and being in the centre of things with my child, I could not see the risk. It is very easy to be upset with a young adult child who is acting out in a variety of ways. I was in the typical "sandwich" generation between an elderly parent and a troubled young adult child. All roads led to me. I also cannot excuse myself for my own flaws.. and we all have flaws, but thank goodness most people do not experience such an outcome.
> I think that the main point that both DM and I are making is that the medical system failed our children and failed us, and it is clear, has failed a lot of people in the area of psychiatric drugs.
> That is the point we are making here. So many mistakes... Devastated Mom lost her beloved son because her family doctor seemed to prescribe Effexor in a truly lackadaisical manner.. imagine the doctor saying, "Oh,, you feel down... here, take this.. make you feel better. No harm" and in the case of my daughter so many many mistakes of care... too many to write here.
> When I learned that the warnings about Effexor have been on the label in some manner since 1999, it made me want to scream. And at end, all of these doctors basically just shrug it off by the classical justification "Depressed people kill themselves" and that excuses the possible risk of the anti-depressant.
> Both DM's son and my daughter are classical cases of impulse acts caused by anti-depressants, because both of them were kids who had a lot to live for. Neither of us can prove that it was the Effexor, but if there was a risk for DM's son, then his family should have been told and could have been told with his permission. In my daughter's case, the multiplicity of errors are so many that I don't know what to say. The only way this can be prevented in the future is through proper education of doctors, of family, of all the caregivers. I just lived in this illusion that my beloved child could not do this to herself or to me. I may have been upset at her often, but I was there .... and I needed help to cope with her, and if there was anything that I needed most of all, it was an understanding of the risk, and that the medical caregivers themselves had properly shared her medical history to help us help her. Instead, everyone just minimized and gave her little attention, and I could not believe that she would do this. Someone recently asked me how I was doing and I told him that I lived in agony. He said... "well life must go on".. and I said to him.. "could you imagine one of your children taking their own life?"... When I said that, I could see his face scrunch up and it told me that even the thought of that was so horrible that he wanted to block it out.
> I cannot write of this as well as those many concerned professionals in health care and social work. Some doctors just prescribe these drugs without much consideration of risk. Ritalin is another case that is hugely overprescribed to "manage" kids... Most of the kids on this drug probably do not need it.
> My daughter's case could read in a text book about all the wrong things that should NOT be done to look after an adolsecent with Borderline Personality Disorder. Her death was the outcome of risk factors that were simply not explained to me or her mother. The Effexor was just the tipping point that allowed the total risk factors to kill my child. But the case of DM's son and the anecdotal testaments of those who have used this drug speak so loudly about doctors stopping and thinking before they prescribe these drugs. I heard a psychiatrist justify his prescribing the drug by stating he gave it to hundreds of people without any harmful effects. Sounds so easy unless one becomes the exception case - and loses a 20 year old daughter to suicide.
> Her life plays over in my head and I struggle to somehow live, because I have the loss and the pain and torment of my own stupidity and how I duped myself into thinking she was not at risk.
> I could have researched her illness and kept better track myself, but I simply was fooled by the lack of concern of doctors,a statement by the specialist that with the Effexor she would be OK and my own angst about her behaviours. You see, for me in my day to day interaction with her, she was not really mentally ill, she just was my kid who was troubled and who always played me to get what she wanted, and used to laugh about how she could persuade me to get what she wanted. What I didn't realize is that she had become an addict, and the medical caregivers didn't see it either when they should have known if they had been properly educated in the drugs they were prescribing. The risk therefore was multiplied, and all who knew her truly believe that her suicide was an impulse act facilitated by the Effexor and her drug abuse. Yes, doctors are human of course, and they are prone to errors as well, but there must be a basic standard of care that seems to be missing. Proper advice to patients and family caregivers within the context of risk factors, and proper medical history disclosure to enable correct diagnosis. In the other medical specialties this seems to happen as so many of the procedures are based on solid scientific diagnostic evidence, but in the case of psychiatry, this is far from being the case. There needs to be more effort to develop diagnostics that are more than "guesswork" by one or other psychiatrist. And the knowledge of psychiatrists about treatment is also very suspect. This is all the more reason that psychiatric drugs should not be prescribed without a proper assessement and disclosure, and clear warnings about risks. This should not be left to chance. It is truly back to that essential medical principal "DO NO HARM".
> Simon
Not to get too off subject here but, I have had a few talks with Dr. Joe Glenmullen in the past. He's a good guy and his book gives a fair look at the situation.
Posted by simon levane on February 20, 2006, at 17:31:18
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by fenix on February 20, 2006, at 9:26:29
> Interesting... Fenix
can you share any insights from your privilege to speak to Dr. Glenmullen..
If only his warnings had been better known to other doctors, but sadly, this information is sometimes just not of interest to us if we are not aware of risks..
I wish I had known of this before.. but the doctors so many of them, just don't bother to advise enough...
sad.
beyond comprehension.. beyond measure
Simon
>
> Not to get too off subject here but, I have had a few talks with Dr. Joe Glenmullen in the past. He's a good guy and his book gives a fair look at the situation.
>
Posted by simon levane on February 20, 2006, at 17:35:34
In reply to Re: double double quotes » simon levane, posted by Dr. Bob on February 19, 2006, at 10:25:34
> > Glenmullen wrote a recent book called "The Anti-depressant Solution" in which he describes the risks that are so often not told to patients.
>
> I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
>
> The first time anyone refers to a book, movie, or music without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
>
> Thanks!
>
> Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 20, 2006, at 17:45:13
In reply to Re: double double quotes: Thanks.. will do, posted by simon levane on February 20, 2006, at 17:35:34
Posted by fenix on February 20, 2006, at 20:00:44
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » fenix, posted by simon levane on February 20, 2006, at 17:31:18
> > Interesting... Fenix
> can you share any insights from your privilege to speak to Dr. Glenmullen..
> If only his warnings had been better known to other doctors, but sadly, this information is sometimes just not of interest to us if we are not aware of risks..
> I wish I had known of this before.. but the doctors so many of them, just don't bother to advise enough...
> sad.
> beyond comprehension.. beyond measure
> Simon
> >
> > Not to get too off subject here but, I have had a few talks with Dr. Joe Glenmullen in the past. He's a good guy and his book gives a fair look at the situation.
> >
>
>Well first of all he was never my doctor. I just happened upon speaking with him a few times and it is kind of a private matter. So, I can't say what we talked about, but what I can say is that he is a rather pleasant man who wrote a book.
As far as insights go... I guess I have just one: he both believes in and practices what he wrote, there are no empty ideals. And thus his book is real and not just a bunch of b*llshit.
Anyway I hope a gave a satisfactory answer. Took me almost an hour to figure out what to say; hopefully now whoever reads this understands the positive message I am trying to convey.
Oh, and New England is never a dull place.
Posted by oneffexortoo on February 25, 2006, at 23:23:11
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by fenix on February 20, 2006, at 20:00:44
Why DOES this happen anyway? Why do some people get MORE depressed.. or have other "scary", "weird" feelings they didnt have even when depressed?
> > > Interesting... Fenix
> > can you share any insights from your privilege to speak to Dr. Glenmullen..
> > If only his warnings had been better known to other doctors, but sadly, this information is sometimes just not of interest to us if we are not aware of risks..
> > I wish I had known of this before.. but the doctors so many of them, just don't bother to advise enough...
> > sad.
> > beyond comprehension.. beyond measure
> > Simon
> > >
> > > Not to get too off subject here but, I have had a few talks with Dr. Joe Glenmullen in the past. He's a good guy and his book gives a fair look at the situation.
> > >
> >
> >
>
> Well first of all he was never my doctor. I just happened upon speaking with him a few times and it is kind of a private matter. So, I can't say what we talked about, but what I can say is that he is a rather pleasant man who wrote a book.
>
> As far as insights go... I guess I have just one: he both believes in and practices what he wrote, there are no empty ideals. And thus his book is real and not just a bunch of b*llshit.
>
> Anyway I hope a gave a satisfactory answer. Took me almost an hour to figure out what to say; hopefully now whoever reads this understands the positive message I am trying to convey.
>
> Oh, and New England is never a dull place.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Posted by Devastated Mother on February 26, 2006, at 12:23:35
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by oneffexortoo on February 25, 2006, at 23:23:11
Dear oneffexortoo,
For me the more important question is, Why would a doctor, knowing this reaction is a possibility, not monitor more carefully?
Has "do no harm" been forgotten? I truly do not understand this at all.
DM
> Why DOES this happen anyway? Why do some people get MORE depressed.. or have other "scary", "weird" feelings they didnt have even when depressed?
Posted by simon levane on February 26, 2006, at 14:20:17
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by oneffexortoo on February 25, 2006, at 23:23:11
I am not sure that people get more depressed on these drugs. In some cases, the effect of taking away depression gives the person more focus and a feeling of being energized...and in that state of mind, they sometimes act on the thought of suicide as seeming to be a good idea. The symptoms of akithesia are very distressing - that is a general "hyperactivity" and panic is also mentioned as a potential side effect. The truly scariest part of this from reading anecdotal descriptions is that people start to have suicidal thoughts and urges. If someone were thinking of suicide from depression, it is as if those underlying thoughts are enhanced.
No one knows exactly why this is, it appears. But a few reviews of studies, one in Ottawa Canada and another in Norway, showed that there was an increase in suicidal ideation on these drugs when compared to controls. There was another study recently reported in American Journal of Psychiatry that indicates that the overall suicidal rate has declined due to use of anti-depresssants, but as I recall, it does not take into account age differences as I understand. There also issues of side effects not explained very well to patients, and if you have read this thread, the horror of doctors not taking care to advise family members (with permission), or to monitor patients adequately, as well as a tendency to increase dosage in response to worsening mood instead of considering that the worsening mood might be caused by the drug itself.
The book by Glenmullen really condemns the pyschiatric profession in just not taking these drugs seriously enough. As I have written elsewhere in this thread, there is a huge difference in attitude by doctors saying "oh, well, depressed people kill themselves" and not taking accountability for the total care of a patient, .....and risking the patient's life without even worrying that much about this.
The devastation this causes survivor family members and the regrets for not knowing more or studying this more or being more aware...... or even reacting to a troubled adolecent or young adult, is truly beyond description. The pain is unending.. a life sentence of loss and grief.
Simon
> Why DOES this happen anyway? Why do some people get MORE depressed.. or have other "scary", "weird" feelings they didnt have even when depressed?
>
Posted by dancingstar on February 26, 2006, at 14:51:29
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » oneffexortoo, posted by simon levane on February 26, 2006, at 14:20:17
I am one that was prescribed Effexor for back pain and fatigue and became quite depressed while taking it. This was in part because it was making me so very tired that I couldn't stay awake more than a few hours a day. This happens very slowly. At first it gives you almost too much energy, but within a matter of months, I was so tired that I thought I was dying cause I was unable to stay awake and my blood pressure dropped to a pretty constant 90/60. I had become weak, weepy, and in constant pain. I had no idea it was because of the Effexor until after I stopped taking it and was no longer soooo very sleepy. In fact, as sick as I was from the withdrawal, I really wasn't able to sleep for months.
I realized that Effexor caused depression as well before I stopped taking it, when I told my internist that I was feeling extremely weepy and asked if I could raise the dosage of Effexor from 75 mg. to 150. Within a week of the increase I was feeling severely depressed and knew it was from the Effexor. I finally realized that I needed to get rid of the drug.
This happened to me as a grown-up. I don't think that it is as age related as they are trying to imply. For a good number of people, these drugs are truly poisonous.
By the way, have you all reported problems with Effexor to the FDA? It is very important that a record is made of all the problems so that people can be warned before taking these drugs.
Here's the link:
Posted by simon levane on February 26, 2006, at 16:43:41
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by dancingstar on February 26, 2006, at 14:51:29
Thanks for your post Dancingstar. This is very valuable information. There may be an age related context in that young people can be more impulsive than adults - and less understanding of the finality of suicide as distorted thinking.
The big problem with these drugs is that doctors just do not take them seriously enough in how they advise patients and family members of risks.. if at all.. For both Devastated Mother's son and my daughter, doctors just did not tell us in spite of there being a warning going back to 1999.. They are just so out of touch with reality, and then they rationalize that the death was not caused by the drug's effect on mind... in spite of the fact that these are mind altering drugs.
You are so right about how these drugs can be poisonous for some people. I made sure that this was reported to the proper authorities in my country.
Stats mean nothing until the person in the statistic is a loved one. Then that number becomes a horror just the way that 38,000 deaths on the highway sound small compared to the number of miles travelled, unless, it is someone in your own family.
Simon> I am one that was prescribed Effexor for back pain and fatigue and became quite depressed while taking it. This was in part because it was making me so very tired that I couldn't stay awake more than a few hours a day. This happens very slowly. At first it gives you almost too much energy, but within a matter of months, I was so tired that I thought I was dying cause I was unable to stay awake and my blood pressure dropped to a pretty constant 90/60. I had become weak, weepy, and in constant pain. I had no idea it was because of the Effexor until after I stopped taking it and was no longer soooo very sleepy. In fact, as sick as I was from the withdrawal, I really wasn't able to sleep for months.
>
> I realized that Effexor caused depression as well before I stopped taking it, when I told my internist that I was feeling extremely weepy and asked if I could raise the dosage of Effexor from 75 mg. to 150. Within a week of the increase I was feeling severely depressed and knew it was from the Effexor. I finally realized that I needed to get rid of the drug.
>
> This happened to me as a grown-up. I don't think that it is as age related as they are trying to imply. For a good number of people, these drugs are truly poisonous.
>
> By the way, have you all reported problems with Effexor to the FDA? It is very important that a record is made of all the problems so that people can be warned before taking these drugs.
>
> Here's the link:
>
> https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/medwatch/
Posted by Devastated Mother on February 26, 2006, at 18:50:19
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by dancingstar on February 26, 2006, at 14:51:29
back pain and fatigue??
dancingstar,
Your information is amazing and quite sad. How can the same medication help with back pain, fatigue and depression? The ease with which this drug is prescribed is truly incredible. Only your own vigilance saved you. I had already reported to the FDA, but I am not sure how much good it will do. I believe the doctors tried to deceive us on the cause of my son's death by asking what the precipitating factor was, as if we could have known what was in his head. If we had not had further incidents, we might have remained ignorant of the true cause of his death. I am sure Simon joins me in being grateful that this same thing did not happen to you. I wish doctors would be more careful in prescribing this deadly drug. We have heard from people here who have been helped by effexor. I am happy for them. They were fortunate. We were not. Our loved ones paid with their lives for the recklessness of a doctor.--DM
Posted by dancingstar on February 26, 2006, at 20:03:09
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on February 26, 2006, at 18:50:19
Devastated Mother,
Thank you for your kind words. I took Effexor from sometime in approximately 2000 to September of 2004, and it was prescribed by a family practice doctor that has had his license revoked, though that had nothing whatsoever to do with me.
If you look back to late September of 2004 and forward from there on this board, you can see that I was pretty wiped out by the withdrawal from Effexor. I found the link to this site, like most, on Google and shared my thoughts about Effexor and the damage that it does perhaps all too freely at that time. I was so very sick for far too long.
Because I was on a mission that no one else be hurt by Effexor, I posted the FDA link many times, and I think it might be as a result of so many people complaining about the drug that there are now the warnings on the label that there are as they didn't exist when I first took it.
In fact, unfortunately, a good percentage of the prescritpions for Effexor are for minor depression from things like menopause or an injury or even the symptoms of menopause themselves, including hot flashes; and in these cases it is gynecologists, family practitioners, internists, etc. rather than psychs. that are doing the prescribing. Wyeth has been pushing its use instead of hormone replacement therapy and for women that have had breast cancer. Many people, like me, don't have a clue that the reason that they feel so bad is as a side effect of taking a drug that doesn't at all agree with them because the changes in your body come out very slowly.
I truly believe that our reporting these problems has helped cause there were no warnings when I began to take Effexor. I remember asking my doctor at the time outright if there were any side effects, and I was assured that there were none except that some people had some sexual problems when they took it, but the doctor assured me that I would not have even that problem. There were no warnings about any other dangers nor that many -- if not most people cannot stop taking it, ever, without switching to a similar drug, or they would suffer debilitating withdrawal symptoms.
I've worked for nearly two years since I stopped taking E to get my health back to what it once was...but that doesn't compare in the least to what you and Simon have been through. I cannot begin to tell you how horrible I feel that you both have had to go through all that you have if there was any way on earth that this could have been prevented.
I agree with what Simon said about teenagers and their impulsiveness, the lack of awareness about the finality of suicide. Someone needs to really reign in the prescribing of this drug. It is very potent and potentially damaging to too many. ...no matter that some are doing well on it.
Have you read what people have said about Effexor on the online petition? If you click on the numbers, you can read what each person has to say. I believe around 8,000 people have signed it, but I haven't looked lately.
> back pain and fatigue??
>
> dancingstar,
> Your information is amazing and quite sad. How can the same medication help with back pain, fatigue and depression? The ease with which this drug is prescribed is truly incredible. Only your own vigilance saved you. I had already reported to the FDA, but I am not sure how much good it will do. I believe the doctors tried to deceive us on the cause of my son's death by asking what the precipitating factor was, as if we could have known what was in his head. If we had not had further incidents, we might have remained ignorant of the true cause of his death. I am sure Simon joins me in being grateful that this same thing did not happen to you. I wish doctors would be more careful in prescribing this deadly drug. We have heard from people here who have been helped by effexor. I am happy for them. They were fortunate. We were not. Our loved ones paid with their lives for the recklessness of a doctor.
>
> --DM
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 27, 2006, at 19:30:40
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by dancingstar on February 26, 2006, at 20:03:09
> the online petition
As before, I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding petitions to Psycho-Babble Social. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20060221/msgs/613956.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by fenix on February 28, 2006, at 15:30:34
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on February 26, 2006, at 12:23:35
I would be interested in reading Dr. Bob's feelings on that. Many of us are not physicians and it would be useful and comforting to see a doctor's perspective.
It is unfortunate that you must suffer from something that was supposed to save. That is one of the greater pains of psychiatry I feel. I know of this personally.
Please have comfort in knowing that you do not suffer in vain, even though it may seem that way. There are many who do not like the current state of things when it comes to certain medicine; hopefully things will change for the better so that the future of the world does not have to go through such things.
There is a great thing to be learned actually in Voltaire's Candide. It has to do when Candide and his friend arrived at El Dorado. Things were amazing there; a real paradise of a civilization with great inventions of engineering, art and music, and it was all hidden away from everything. Everyone was happy and there was no suffering. But, why was it like that in El Dorado?
Because they didn't have to care about money. In fact, they were completely foreign of the idea.
For you see, in El Dorado, there were endless amounts of pebbles on the ground, however, on closer inspection, they were not of stone but precious gems! You could take a handful of El Dorado's "dirt" and have more wealth than all the kings in the world combined. Because El Dorado just had so much vast wealth, everyone could focus on what is really important instead of the idea of earning money getting in the way.
Our World is not an "El Dorado". Here, money is of first importance merely because of the means in which money is aquired in our World; you don't just waltz down the road and pick up diamonds along the way. Our health is secondary, our quality of medicine is secondary, whether you or I suffer less is secondary. Everything is subservient to money.
> Dear oneffexortoo,
>
> For me the more important question is, Why would a doctor, knowing this reaction is a possibility, not monitor more carefully?
>
> Has "do no harm" been forgotten? I truly do not understand this at all.
>
> DM
> > Why DOES this happen anyway? Why do some people get MORE depressed.. or have other "scary", "weird" feelings they didnt have even when depressed?
>
This is the end of the thread.
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