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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 6 of 6. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by gibber on February 23, 2006, at 12:04:07
Hey y'all,
I wanted to let you know that my nardil trial ended after 3 months. I was very optimistic about its success, but it didn't really turn out as I expected. I would say it was probably the best AD I have tried, and improved my depression maybe %25. THis is more than any other med I have tried. The side effects of insomnia and sexual dysfunction were particulary bad.
Without too much persistence I was able to get my doctor to prescribe selegiline and presented him with research on PEA and selegiline treatment. He wasn't familar with this combination, but is ok with me trying it. This research I have read on this combination has been very encouraging and I just hope it works for me!!! Below I found another great article, I'll post an exerpt from it too. Interestingly one study combined 5-HTP with selegiline, something I think is contraindicated in some literature.http://p078.ezboard.com/fthepeacockchroniclefrm24.showMessage?topicID=9.topic
DEPRENYL: DEPRESSION
Deprenyl has been used experimentally as a treatment for depression
since the late 1970s. While the causes of depression are diverse and still
under investigation, it is by now accepted that dysfunction of dopamine
and noradrenalin neural systems is a frequent biochemical cause of
depression. (18,19)In addition the research of A. Sabelli and colleagues has established that a
brain PEA deficiency also seems to be strongly implicated in many cases
of depression. (32) Given that deprenyl is a catecholamine (dopamine and
noradrenalin) activity enhancer, and that deprenyl strongly increases brain
PEA through MAO-B inhibition, deprenyl would seem a rational treatment
for depression.Studies with atypical depressives (33), treatment-resistant depressives (34),
and major depressives (35) have shown deprenyl to be an effective, low
side-effect depression treatment. However, such studies have often
required deprenyl dosages in the 20-30, even 60 mg range. While these
dosages caused little problem in short-term studies, it is dubious to
consider using such high, non-selective MAO-B inhibition doses for long
term (months - years) treatment. Three studies have shown
antidepressant promise at selective, MAO-B inhibiting doses.In 1978 Mendelwicz and Youdim treated 14 depressed patients with 5 mg
deprenyl plus 300 mg 5-HTP 3 times daily for 32 days. (1) Deprenyl
potentiated the antidepressant effect of 5-HTP in 10/14 patients. 5-HTP
enhances brain serotonin metabolism, which is frequently a problem in
depression (37), while deprenyl enhances dopamine/noradrenalin activity.
Under-activity of brain dopamine, noradrenalin and serotonin neural
systems are the most frequently cited biochemical causes of depression
(18,19,37), so deprenyl plus 5-HTP would seem a natural antidepressant
combination.In 1984 Birkmayer, Knoll and colleagues published their successful results
in 155 unipolar depressed patients who were extremely
treatment-resistant. (8) Patients were given 5-10 mg deprenyl plus 250 mg
phenylalanine daily. Approximately 70% of their patients achieved full
remission, typically within 1-3 weeks. Some patients were continued up to
2 years on treatment without loss of antidepressant action. The
combination of deprenyl plus phenylalanine enhances brain PEA activity,
while both deprenyl and PEA enhance brain catecholamine activity. Thus
deprenyl plus phenylalanine is also a natural antidepressant combination.In 1991 H. Sabelli reported successful results treating 6 of 10
drug-resistant major depressive disorder patients. (9) Sabelli used 5 mg
deprenyl daily, 100 mg vitamin B6 daily, and 1-3 grams phenylalanine
twice daily as treatment. 6 of 10 patients viewed their depressive episodes
terminated within 2-3 days! Global Assessment Scale scores confirmed
the patients’ subjective experiences. Vitamin B6 activates the enzyme that
converts phenylalanine to PEA, so the combination of low-dose deprenyl,
B6, and phenylalanine is a bio-logical way to enhance both PEA and
catecholamine brain function, and thus to diminish depression.
Posted by tessellated on February 23, 2006, at 15:11:38
In reply to Ending Nardil and Doc prescribed selegiline, posted by gibber on February 23, 2006, at 12:04:07
howdy!
I've taken 5HTP and selegiline at the under 10mg dose np.
Does anyone understand exactly why they are contraindicated?
Considering selegiline inhibits MAO-B and therfore preferentially deaminates dopamine, and PEA? Is is merely due to the "potential" for selegeline to shift to MAO-A inhibition and there fore the dreaded serotonin syndrome? I'd think if selegeline was in fact less selective (and affordable at that range) than it would be more effective.Personally, I've only taken the tablet form and really never noticed much. Perhaps a tid bit of clarity, increased libido, impulse to excersice. A very cool life affirming compound, though not sure if its really an AD.
Moreover, has anyone had a true honest to goodnes AD affect off selegeline?
And is the solution that radically different from tab form?
Anyone try ENSAM? the patch that is....
tessellated
Posted by willyee on February 23, 2006, at 17:25:34
In reply to Re: Ending Nardil and Doc prescribed selegiline, posted by tessellated on February 23, 2006, at 15:11:38
> howdy!
>
> I've taken 5HTP and selegiline at the under 10mg dose np.
> Does anyone understand exactly why they are contraindicated?
> Considering selegiline inhibits MAO-B and therfore preferentially deaminates dopamine, and PEA? Is is merely due to the "potential" for selegeline to shift to MAO-A inhibition and there fore the dreaded serotonin syndrome? I'd think if selegeline was in fact less selective (and affordable at that range) than it would be more effective.
>
> Personally, I've only taken the tablet form and really never noticed much. Perhaps a tid bit of clarity, increased libido, impulse to excersice. A very cool life affirming compound, though not sure if its really an AD.
>
> Moreover, has anyone had a true honest to goodnes AD affect off selegeline?
>
> And is the solution that radically different from tab form?
>
> Anyone try ENSAM? the patch that is....
>
> tessellated
>
>
Yess before i got it i dug into the archives and found out the liquid for whatever reason,sublingual,or the citric base or whatever was considered waaaaayyyyy more effective.I can tell you it was definatly potent,and had it not been so EXPENSIVE for such a small amount i could have seen it being a valuable medication if i allowed myself to take more of it,which i couldent cause the bottle is smaller than an index finger.
I have read numerous threads,know a friend personaly,who swear the tabs dont do much at all.Personaly id either try the liquid,or hold out for the patch,youll even notice how much easier the tabs are to get,as opposed to the liquid,sources many of them that carry tabs do not carry liquid.
Posted by tessellated on February 23, 2006, at 17:31:45
In reply to Re: Ending Nardil and Doc prescribed selegiline, posted by willyee on February 23, 2006, at 17:25:34
Willeeeyy
So what dosage where you working with on the citrate?
Any diff btween the citrate and the hcl or whatever the selepryl vs. cyprenil?
So if you were to admin 10mg/day of the liquid that's approx $70/mo. not to bad eh?> Yess before i got it i dug into the archives and found out the liquid for whatever reason,sublingual,or the citric base or whatever was considered waaaaayyyyy more effective.
>
> I can tell you it was definatly potent,and had it not been so EXPENSIVE for such a small amount i could have seen it being a valuable medication if i allowed myself to take more of it,which i couldent cause the bottle is smaller than an index finger.
>
>
> I have read numerous threads,know a friend personaly,who swear the tabs dont do much at all.Personaly id either try the liquid,or hold out for the patch,youll even notice how much easier the tabs are to get,as opposed to the liquid,sources many of them that carry tabs do not carry liquid.
>
>
Posted by willyee on February 23, 2006, at 17:55:23
In reply to Re: Ending Nardil and Doc prescribed selegiline » willyee, posted by tessellated on February 23, 2006, at 17:31:45
> Willeeeyy
> So what dosage where you working with on the citrate?
> Any diff btween the citrate and the hcl or whatever the selepryl vs. cyprenil?
> So if you were to admin 10mg/day of the liquid that's approx $70/mo. not to bad eh?
>
> > Yess before i got it i dug into the archives and found out the liquid for whatever reason,sublingual,or the citric base or whatever was considered waaaaayyyyy more effective.
> >
> > I can tell you it was definatly potent,and had it not been so EXPENSIVE for such a small amount i could have seen it being a valuable medication if i allowed myself to take more of it,which i couldent cause the bottle is smaller than an index finger.
> >
> >
> > I have read numerous threads,know a friend personaly,who swear the tabs dont do much at all.Personaly id either try the liquid,or hold out for the patch,youll even notice how much easier the tabs are to get,as opposed to the liquid,sources many of them that carry tabs do not carry liquid.
> >
> >
>
>
The dropper isnt indicated,so i mean u never really know,it just goes man,goes fast,and seems to go when u start notcing a differece,i would wanna go higher than 10 mg definatly,and instead of adding all those aminos i learned adding caffiene which affects similiar chemicals to pheylanine did just as well,actualy caffiene and liq deprenyl was a calming stimulant if u can understand what i mean by that.But i used it mid day,i was cutting out parnate,stopping it in the afternoon and dosing deprenyl early evening and night,there was for me no way that little bottle was sufficient to run any real tests for depression except as a augment,or at daily or weekly doses as the smart drug which is what it really was more known for over a anti depressant on most groups at the 1 mg a day.
Thats why im sayng i doubt many people other than people in trials have used an effective deprenyl product at a effective dose long enough,that stuff is expensiveeeeeee but it taste great dident it,id lick the bottle lol it was sweet like orange juice..
Posted by JaclinHyde on February 25, 2006, at 15:44:44
In reply to Re: Ending Nardil and Doc prescribed selegiline, posted by tessellated on February 23, 2006, at 15:11:38
The new and improved Nardil (haha) is the pill version of a rip-off. Selegiline sounds great until you realize the amount you have to take to achieve the same results as say, Parnate or Marplan. And once you get up that high on selegiline you run into the same 'cheese effect' risk that you would have had on the standard MAOI's. Don't get me wrong here....I really hope this does the trick for you! We are pulling for you because you are trying something new and your success is a success for us all! Good luck!
JH
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