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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by James K on January 29, 2006, at 11:55:57
In reply to Re: crazy meds fenix? what was that?, posted by fenix on January 29, 2006, at 10:56:39
Hey fenix,
I'm also very worried about TA. I'm fortunate not to have it, but Atypicals did mess up my metabolism some a few years ago. I always quit my meds, so I stopped before it was too late.I will personally never take an antipsychotic again, but I'm not schizophrenic, and I haven't exhausted all my other options yet. I have close friends in treatment who really have to do "something" because it really has become life or death.
I just wanted to say I can see where you are coming from with your strong feelings. I wish I had some science to give you on the benzo question as well, but there have been lots of posts here along the way so maybe there is some concrete info there.
This site has some strong and perhaps strange rules about the conversations, and it appears you have rubbed some the wrong way. All I can tell you is once you get used to the style this is a great place. I'm assuming you are new here. I have no offical capacity, I'm just filling you in. No offense intended in any way.
James K
Posted by gibber on January 29, 2006, at 12:21:43
In reply to Re: 10mg Abilify.........Akathisia, posted by fenix on January 29, 2006, at 10:16:43
Lets be clear here. Tardive dyskinesia is where your face has uncontrollable twitches. Ace's original post mentioned akathisia, which is a persistant restlessness of the body.
Posted by James K on January 29, 2006, at 12:30:12
In reply to Akathisia vs. Tardive dyskinesia, posted by gibber on January 29, 2006, at 12:21:43
I haven't got all the terms throughly understood yet. It's a new area of interest for me.
and once I start posting I can't go back and restudy the previous posts, so I'm kind of flying blind. no offense meant by my carelessness.
james k
Posted by theo on January 29, 2006, at 12:43:06
In reply to 10mg Abilify.........Akathisia, posted by ace on January 29, 2006, at 9:34:11
> Ok....I'm off this stuff...abilify made me anxious and gave me bad akathisia...I needed two IV doses of Cogentin (man that stuff is good) to stop it it was so uncomfortable.
>
> My next move is 1mg Stelazine.....an extremely low dose considering some hospitalised people go up to 80mg.....
>
> Just letting you all know what's going on in the land of Ace!!
>
> AceDid you ever think about 5mg or even 2.5mg of Abilify? Most doctors start patients out at 2.5mg or 5mg, I can even feel 1.25mg. It's diffently potent and doesn't take near as much as what some doctors initially prescribe. At just 1.25mg-2.5mg, started back on it yesterday, I noticed immediate results and felt more energized, even sex last night with my girlfriend was more intense. Abilify can definitly pull you out of a depressive slump, but if the dose gets to high and you experience akathisia, that does suck.
Posted by theo on January 29, 2006, at 12:46:36
In reply to Re: 10mg Abilify.........Akathisia, posted by fenix on January 29, 2006, at 10:16:43
> But can you imagine having akathisia for the rest of your life. That is what I have and people wonder why I hate those dangerous drugs so much. The suffering is something few people will ever know of.
What med caused it for you, one of the older antipsychotics?
Posted by Jakeman on January 29, 2006, at 13:40:53
In reply to 10mg Abilify.........Akathisia, posted by ace on January 29, 2006, at 9:34:11
Ace,
I'm starting to wonder if I have some level of Akathisia. I have severe inner restlessness. I find it almost impossible to just sit down and relax. I pace a lot. I never was like this until I took Prozac some years ago, now it seems to be a permanent state.
How severe are your symptons?
I found this article interesting:
"Vitamin B6 treatment in acute neuroleptic-induced akathisia: a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study."~Jake
Posted by ed_uk on January 29, 2006, at 14:50:28
In reply to Re: 10mg Abilify.........Akathisia, B-6 » ace, posted by Jakeman on January 29, 2006, at 13:40:53
Hi Jake
Thanks for posting the study :)
Ed
Posted by fenix on January 29, 2006, at 15:11:58
In reply to Re: 10mg Abilify.........Akathisia » fenix, posted by theo on January 29, 2006, at 12:46:36
Geodon did. And it also had to do with being on like medicines for three years or so.
Posted by fenix on January 29, 2006, at 15:13:31
In reply to Re: 10mg Abilify.........Akathisia, B-6 » ace, posted by Jakeman on January 29, 2006, at 13:40:53
I also read somewhere that Vitamin E may be useful for Tardive Dyskinesia which is related to Tardive Akathisia. Probably not though.
Posted by fenix on January 29, 2006, at 15:14:42
In reply to Akathisia vs. Tardive dyskinesia, posted by gibber on January 29, 2006, at 12:21:43
Yes, but there is also a Tardive form of akathisia... hope this isn't getting all confusing.
Posted by Chairman_MAO on January 29, 2006, at 15:30:20
In reply to 10mg Abilify.........Akathisia, posted by ace on January 29, 2006, at 9:34:11
Who takes 80mg of Stelazine, inpatient Elephants!?!
Posted by ed_uk on January 29, 2006, at 15:58:15
In reply to 10mg Abilify.........Akathisia, posted by ace on January 29, 2006, at 9:34:11
Hi ACE
10mg Abilify was far too much. Unless you're acutely psychotic or manic you should start at a much lower dose.
>I needed two IV doses of Cogentin (man that stuff is good) to stop it it was so uncomfortable.
You liked Cogentin a lot?
>My next move is 1mg Stelazine
Low doses of trifluoperazine (Stelazine), haloperidol (Haldol, Serenace) and similar neuroleptics can sometimes be helpful for anxiety in the short term but the risk of TD is high in the long term. Akathisia is very common with high potency neuroleptics. Take care. Why not just try a (much) lower dose of Abilify?
>some hospitalised people go up to 80mg.....
That would be very uncommon these days, although such high doses were used in the past.
Ed
Posted by ed_uk on January 29, 2006, at 16:09:56
In reply to 10mg Abilify.........Akathisia, posted by ace on January 29, 2006, at 9:34:11
Manufacturer's recommendations:
Non-psychotic generalised anxiety.......
'Usual dosage is 1 or 2 mg twice daily. Do not administer at doses of more than 6 mg per day or for longer than 12 weeks.'
'When used in the treatment of non-psychotic anxiety, Stelazine should not be administered at doses of more than 6 mg per day or for longer than 12 weeks because the use of Stelazine at higher doses or for longer intervals may cause persistent tardive dyskinesia that may prove irreversible'
I would personally avoid taking single doses of more than 1mg.
Still, are you sure you need a high potency neuroleptic ACE? I thought you were doing well on Nardil, and that your anxiety was under control. Neuroleptics are not an appropriate treatment for mild anxiety.
Take care
Ed
Posted by gibber on January 29, 2006, at 16:36:34
In reply to Re: Akathisia vs. Tardive dyskinesia, posted by fenix on January 29, 2006, at 15:14:42
It seems akathisia is short for tardive akathisia. This is from the University of Kansas Med Center website. This first hit on google:
Tardive akathisia is the third type of tardive syndrome. Akathisia refers to a feeling of restlessness often accompanied by anxiety. In milder cases, the individual may complain of a sensation of inner restlessness and be unable to sit quietly without fidgeting . In more severe cases, the individual may actually be unable to remain seated and must pace or march around the room. Their sense of anxiety increases if they are unable to move about.
tardive dyskenisia is a term reserved for movements mostly of the face.
Posted by ed_uk on January 29, 2006, at 16:40:48
In reply to 10mg Abilify.........Akathisia, posted by ace on January 29, 2006, at 9:34:11
PS. Stelazine can also cause acute dystonia, which can be severe. Please be cautious.
Ed
Posted by fenix on January 29, 2006, at 18:23:00
In reply to Re: Akathisia vs. Tardive dyskinesia, posted by gibber on January 29, 2006, at 16:36:34
Akathisia is not short for tardive akathisia. Tardive akathisia is something different. Tardive is derived from the Latin word meaning late onset.
Tardive akathisia differs from normal akathisia because it 1) lasts for a very long time (if not indefinitely) even when the drugs that caused it are stopped and 2) has a tendency to be extremely difficult to treat; drugs such as propranolol (which is very effective in temporary neuroleptic-induced akathisia, usually does nothing for tardive akathisia), benzodiazepines, opiates, dopamine depleters (such as reserpine), and divers other things have proven unsatisfactory results.
Posted by gardenergirl on January 29, 2006, at 19:54:06
In reply to Re: Akathisia vs. Tardive dyskinesia, posted by fenix on January 29, 2006, at 18:23:00
Sounds like it would make a good case study, since it's so unusual for someone to be diagnosed with that.
gg
Posted by Phillipa on January 29, 2006, at 22:13:06
In reply to Re: Akathisia vs. Tardive dyskinesia » fenix, posted by gardenergirl on January 29, 2006, at 19:54:06
Ace please be careful. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by ed_uk on January 30, 2006, at 12:08:58
In reply to Re: Akathisia vs. Tardive dyskinesia, posted by fenix on January 29, 2006, at 18:23:00
Hi Fenix
Tell us about your akathisia. How long have you had it? Which medication was responsible? When did you stop the offending medication? Did you suffer from acute extra-pyramidal side effects when you were still taking the offending medication? What medication(s) are you on at the moment? Which meds have you tried for the akathisia so far?
Ed
Posted by yxibow on January 31, 2006, at 1:20:49
In reply to Re: Akathisia vs. Tardive dyskinesia, posted by fenix on January 29, 2006, at 18:23:00
> Akathisia is not short for tardive akathisia. Tardive akathisia is something different. Tardive is derived from the Latin word meaning late onset.
>
> Tardive akathisia differs from normal akathisia because it 1) lasts for a very long time (if not indefinitely) even when the drugs that caused it are stopped and 2) has a tendency to be extremely difficult to treat; drugs such as propranolol (which is very effective in temporary neuroleptic-induced akathisia, usually does nothing for tardive akathisia), benzodiazepines, opiates, dopamine depleters (such as reserpine), and divers other things have proven unsatisfactory results.
You might look into wemove.org and other sites devoted to movement disorders. I can't discuss importation of drugs here, but people have imported Tetrabenazine (Nitoman in Canada) from Canada and England. It is considered a fast track orphan drug by the FDA currently. A company has filed a NDA recently to have it approved in the US for Huntingtons Chorea. It has been used in trials for TD in the same way reserpine has been used. It can cause pseudoparkinsonism, but one has to weight the benefits.Regards
- J
Posted by fenix on February 2, 2006, at 7:25:07
In reply to Re: Akathisia vs. Tardive dyskinesia » fenix, posted by ed_uk on January 30, 2006, at 12:08:58
> Hi Fenix
>
> Tell us about your akathisia. How long have you had it? Which medication was responsible? When did you stop the offending medication? Did you suffer from acute extra-pyramidal side effects when you were still taking the offending medication? What medication(s) are you on at the moment? Which meds have you tried for the akathisia so far?
>
> EdHi Ed, I would respond better but I am so worn and tired really so I will try my best to answer your questions.
1)I have had akathisia for 2 years, and have been diagnosed with Tardive Akathisia, the worst form of it. I have also not been on any psychiatric drugs for 2 years as well, ever since the TA happened, for you see, Tardive Akathisia lasts and lasts even when all causitive drugs have been stopped. Horrific pain.
2)The medication responsible was Geodon, I was also on other neuroleptics for three years or so before I got Tardive Akathisia, so Geodon was just another player in the long term effects these drugs were having on me. (I want to note here now that I was being treated for depression/anxiety, nothing psychotic in nature, and that I was also given Effexor on a number of occasions).
3)I was and still am suffering from extra-pyramidal side-effects. It was worse when I was on the causitive drug. Basically now, I tend to get twitchings mostly in the left leg once in a while and it happens every day.
4)The only medicine I am on now is clonazepam. We first tried propranolol but that didn't work, so we are now trying benzodiazepines (these are helping to an extent, albeit a small one, but still better than nothing).
Any other questions, feel free to ask. Thanks.
Posted by yxibow on February 2, 2006, at 12:13:02
In reply to Re: Akathisia vs. Tardive dyskinesia, posted by fenix on February 2, 2006, at 7:25:07
You might try for a compassionate Prior Authorization from your insurance provider (I'm hoping you have insurance :/) or from Novartis (the current orphan drug manufacturer) for the atypical with the least D2, Clozaril. It costs $9,000 a year (when last checked -- costs are more for the testing than the drug I think) because they have to monitor you weekly for agranulocytosis (low white blood cell count in 2% of patients), but it has a) helped the worst schizophrenia cases and b) sometimes brought people out of Tardive conditions.
Your doctor would have to make a considerable letter/case for it but it might be an option.
If not trying another low on the totem pole atypical such as Seroquel or Zyprexa may and has caused a shift in things before in people.
Tidings
Jay
Posted by ed_uk on February 2, 2006, at 13:53:21
In reply to Re: Akathisia vs. Tardive dyskinesia, posted by fenix on February 2, 2006, at 7:25:07
Hi Fenix
>I would respond better but I am so worn and tired
No problem :)
>Horrific pain
I can imagine. I've suffered severe neuroleptic-induced acute akathisia myself, it was awful. Thankfully it disappeared within 24 hours of stopping the antipsychotic......which I only took for a couple of days. Tardive akathisia must be absolutely dreadful.
>clonazepam....
So you've only tried propranolol and clonazepam?
The treatment of tardive akathisia is very poorly researched. There are many drugs you could try. A process of trial and error is ahead.
Regards
Ed
Posted by fenix on February 2, 2006, at 14:31:38
In reply to Re: Akathisia vs. Tardive dyskinesia » fenix, posted by yxibow on February 2, 2006, at 12:13:02
> You might try for a compassionate Prior Authorization from your insurance provider (I'm hoping you have insurance :/) or from Novartis (the current orphan drug manufacturer) for the atypical with the least D2, Clozaril. It costs $9,000 a year (when last checked -- costs are more for the testing than the drug I think) because they have to monitor you weekly for agranulocytosis (low white blood cell count in 2% of patients), but it has a) helped the worst schizophrenia cases and b) sometimes brought people out of Tardive conditions.
>
> Your doctor would have to make a considerable letter/case for it but it might be an option.
>
> If not trying another low on the totem pole atypical such as Seroquel or Zyprexa may and has caused a shift in things before in people.
>
> Tidings
>
> Jay
No way in hell am I going on SSRIs or neuroleptics again, they caused my pains, and I feel way better now without them. And... I am not schizo, never was, so... thanks for the post anyway.
Posted by fenix on February 2, 2006, at 14:34:15
In reply to Re: Akathisia vs. Tardive dyskinesia » fenix, posted by ed_uk on February 2, 2006, at 13:53:21
Yes... I wish there was more research done on this stuff. I talked to a doctor from Harvard University that did research on adverse drug side-effects from SSRIs, and in fact he wrote a book on it.
However, even he barely knows anything about Tardive Akathsisia.
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