![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 2 to 26 of 143. Go back in thread:
Posted by linkadge on January 21, 2006, at 9:29:34
In reply to Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on January 21, 2006, at 2:23:04
You're right, they are real, and many people discount them.
Linkadge
Posted by shasling on January 21, 2006, at 11:31:03
In reply to Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on January 21, 2006, at 2:23:04
From your name and post, I'm afraid of what may have happened. If that fear is correct, I'm just incredibly sorry. If that fear is wrong, I'm incredibly relieved.
Suzie
Posted by Phillipa on January 21, 2006, at 18:56:47
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » Devastated Mother, posted by shasling on January 21, 2006, at 11:31:03
Me too!!!! Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Devastated Mother on January 22, 2006, at 18:00:13
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Phillipa on January 21, 2006, at 18:56:47
I wish it were not true. I am so incredibly devastated by the loss of my 20 year old son due to the negative side effects of this ridiculous drug and the failure of his doctor to even bother to warn us, you cannot imagine. Maybe we couldn't have helped him, but no one even gave us a chance, because we had no idea what drug he was taking and that we should be monitoring for suicidal effects. This drug cannot possibly be helping people enough to warrant the massive use of this drug given the horrible side effects.
Posted by shasling on January 22, 2006, at 18:12:52
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on January 22, 2006, at 18:00:13
I'm so sorry for your loss, DM. I just can't imagine...
For what its worth, I think they starting to put black box warnings on the patient information for SSRI's for that very reason, the subset of young people who have that kind of reaction.
I'm sorry for you that it didn't happen sooner.
You might want to check out the grief board also. There may be people with a deeper understanding of what you are experiencing.
With hope for your healing,
Suzie
Posted by Devastated Mother on January 22, 2006, at 18:28:56
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » Devastated Mother, posted by shasling on January 22, 2006, at 18:12:52
Thanks, Suzie. I do not personally consider the warnings on the inserts adequate, as I think it a bit ridiculous to expect a depressed person to warn those around him/her that "Oh, please keep an eye on me for suicidal reactions!" Please. Do the people doing this have a clue about depression or how it feels?
So, you see, the black box doesn't give me hope at all. And the grief board people might have good intentions, but everyone has their own demons, and honestly, I find that others going through similar things usually are so ensnared in their own issues that although they may mean well, there is not much room to help others. I don't particularly care for any psychology/psychiatry people right now, either. I hope you can understand that. I just thought I'd put up a warning for those who might find it useful.
Posted by shasling on January 22, 2006, at 18:48:03
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on January 22, 2006, at 18:28:56
> Thanks, Suzie. I do not personally consider the warnings on the inserts adequate, as I think it a bit ridiculous to expect a depressed person to warn those around him/her that "Oh, please keep an eye on me for suicidal reactions!" Please. Do the people doing this have a clue about depression or how it feels?
---Not enough of them, thats for sure.
>
> So, you see, the black box doesn't give me hope at all. And the grief board people might have good intentions, but everyone has their own demons, and honestly, I find that others going through similar things usually are so ensnared in their own issues that although they may mean well, there is not much room to help others.---Hadn't thought of that, but I can see where that could happen. Too many needs in one room...
I don't particularly care for any psychology/psychiatry people right now, either. I hope you can understand that.
---Certainly. If/when you get to that, you'll know it. It seems that you are still very angry (understandably). I've been very angry before and being counseled would not have helped it; I needed to burn it off and get through it before anything constructive would have happened. On the other hand, we have to be careful not to be permanently stuck. Do you have other children?
I just thought I'd put up a warning for those who might find it useful.
---I'm sure it is. I don't take it myself, but I'm sure it will be to someone.
I am again sorry for your loss. I have a son around the same age and I can't imagine what you've been through. Glad you are here.
Suzie
Posted by Racer on January 22, 2006, at 20:52:57
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on January 22, 2006, at 18:28:56
> Thanks, Suzie. I do not personally consider the warnings on the inserts adequate,
Unfortunately, that's all there is. That's the strongest warning the FDA has, and it's being used. It may not be what you want to hear, but that black box warning is adequate.
What isn't adequate, of course, is the medical care many people receive. The prescribing doctor is the one who needs to assess the danger any given patient is to him/her self, and take whatever steps are available to reduce that risk.
And, while I know this isn't something you want to hear right now, Effexor has been a life saving drug for many people, including a number of people here. I'm sorry that it apparently was not the best choice in this situation.
Posted by summerflowers on January 23, 2006, at 5:38:49
In reply to Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on January 21, 2006, at 2:23:04
I am so sorry.Go to http://cchr.org/index.cfm (citizens commision of human rights).
Posted by Devastated Mother on January 23, 2006, at 7:07:59
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Racer on January 22, 2006, at 20:52:57
"That's the strongest warning the FDA has, and it's being used. It may not be what you want to hear, but that black box warning is adequate.
Effexor has been a life saving drug for many people, including a number of people here. "
I do not dispute any of this. However, I wonder if I have possibly misunderstood the black box. Is the patient expected to warn his/her family about the potential problems? Is this a reasonable expectation from someone who is depressed?
Posted by linkadge on January 23, 2006, at 11:44:59
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on January 22, 2006, at 18:00:13
I am about the age of your son, and I can't help but relate. I am very sorry. I took effexor, and unfortunately it did make me more suicidal.
The doctors don't understand the drugs they are dealing with. They don't know how they can make people feel. On the one hand they don't trust the patient, but on the other hand the doctor trusts that the patient is going to tell the doctor that they are more suicidal? Not likely. I just lied. I was so tired of failed attempts at making me feel better, that I just lied about how I felt. I felt like saying, if you're only going to give me 5 minautes of your time, you don't deserve to know how I feel.
My heart goes out in support. If only there were some way I could help to make the whole system more safe.Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on January 23, 2006, at 11:49:48
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Racer on January 22, 2006, at 20:52:57
I would agree, the black box warning is definately *NOT* adequate.
They can do more. Certain drugs, for instance, require stricter monitoring, in order to insure their safety. There are no guidelines on how the patient is monitored. Like I said in the above post. Do you think that a doctor can tell, in 5 minautes, weather or not a drug is making somebody suicidal. Not likely.
Linkadge
Posted by Devastated Mother on January 23, 2006, at 12:02:30
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by linkadge on January 23, 2006, at 11:44:59
Thank you, particularly for your honesty and your support.
I am glad you are not now taking the drug, and I am grateful you did not suffer the same fate my son did.
Posted by Devastated Mother on January 23, 2006, at 12:03:47
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by linkadge on January 23, 2006, at 11:49:48
Additionally, suicidal is not a linear thing. You can be fine one part of the day and then an hour later be overwhelmed.
Posted by nicky847 on January 23, 2006, at 13:27:58
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on January 23, 2006, at 7:07:59
i am deeply sorry to hear about your loss...
how long had your son been taking effexor for?
i too think that these side effects are real...i am wondering though if this is something that goes away over time...both times i started taking lexapro i noticed for the first couple of months i would get very scary thoughts and feelings that i did not normally have even when depressed...but after about 8 weeks they became less intense and then eventually disappeared..
effexor is a powerful drug...my therapist told me its usually the med of last resort due to the bad withdrawal effects it has..
Posted by Devastated Mother on January 23, 2006, at 15:42:56
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by nicky847 on January 23, 2006, at 13:27:58
Not long -- maybe three weeks, he was on it, before his death. Yes, I definitely think it should be the drug of last resort. It was the second one they tried with him. I think his doctor just believes in it for some strange reason.
Posted by Devastated Mother on January 24, 2006, at 2:57:14
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by summerflowers on January 23, 2006, at 5:38:49
summerflowers,
Thank you for the link to the summaries of the studies on psychiatric drugs. I checked it out and find it absolutely reasonable and helpful in some ways. I suspect that there are many instances that do not get reported. Do you have any idea how one would go about finding out if adverse effects of drugs have been reported to the FDA?
Devastated Mother
Posted by summerflowers on January 24, 2006, at 3:39:20
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on January 24, 2006, at 2:57:14
> summerflowers,
>
> Thank you for the link to the summaries of the studies on psychiatric drugs. I checked it out and find it absolutely reasonable and helpful in some ways. I suspect that there are many instances that do not get reported. Do you have any idea how one would go about finding out if adverse effects of drugs have been reported to the FDA?
>
> Devastated Mother
>Im so sorry for your loss.It angers me .Coverups,lies,neglect,its all there.It is estimated more people have died in psychiatry than in all the wars put together.It is also estimated psyciatry only helps 1% of people.I sent a report in on a near fatal severe reaction.But I allways wonder how many others-in our neighborhood,town,city,country have been reported,or just swept under the carpet.Maybe a true investigation would reveal something shocking.Its devestating.
Posted by nicky847 on January 24, 2006, at 10:44:32
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on January 23, 2006, at 15:42:56
i think that there needs to be MUCH closer monitoring of patients on antidepressants for the first month they are on them...the period that the body adjusts to the meds can be very scary..
i think after a while they are helpful, and they have helped me.. but in the short term they are dangerous
but it's not feasible to hospitalize every person that goes on a/d's until they adjust to the meds..so there has to be some other solution that can provide closer monitoring and counseling during the adjustment period
Posted by nicky847 on January 24, 2006, at 10:49:55
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » Devastated Mother, posted by summerflowers on January 24, 2006, at 3:39:20
> > summerflowers,
> >
> > Thank you for the link to the summaries of the studies on psychiatric drugs. I checked it out and find it absolutely reasonable and helpful in some ways. I suspect that there are many instances that do not get reported. Do you have any idea how one would go about finding out if adverse effects of drugs have been reported to the FDA?
> >
> > Devastated Mother
> >Im so sorry for your loss.It angers me .Coverups,lies,neglect,its all there.It is estimated more people have died in psychiatry than in all the wars put together.It is also estimated psyciatry only helps 1% of people.I sent a report in on a near fatal severe reaction.But I allways wonder how many others-in our neighborhood,town,city,country have been reported,or just swept under the carpet.Maybe a true investigation would reveal something shocking.Its devestating.
>people do die in psychiatry...but you have to remember that in alot of those cases its the disease that kills and not the cure....people die in oncology too but its not because of the chemo in most cases, its because of the cancer..depression is a serious illness! and the worst part is that people who suffer from it are ashamed of it and dont want to talk about how they are feeling..
in my opinion, the problem is that we desperately need to improve our research of mental health issues..advances have been made but we as a society need to drag this disease into the light, remove the stigma, and begin finding more effective and less dangerous treatments...antidepressants are a start but we can do much, much better!
Posted by Racer on January 24, 2006, at 12:59:46
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on January 23, 2006, at 7:07:59
>
>
> However, I wonder if I have possibly misunderstood the black box. Is the patient expected to warn his/her family about the potential problems? Is this a reasonable expectation from someone who is depressed?And therein lies the rub...
I think the theory is that doctors monitor their most vulnerable patients closely enough to ensure their safety, and let parents or caregivers know that there is some danger during the adjustment phase.
And pigs fly through the air on great multicolored wings.
All I meant is that the FDA has *very* limited means to ensure the safety of people taking these drugs. The Black Box is the strongest thing they have. Beyond that, the doctors who prescribe these drugs are the ones who really have to step in to ensure the safety of their patients.
In a perfect world, there would be a therapist monitoring the patient and coordinating care with the psychiatrist. In the world of HMOs, of course, this doesn't always happen, and pdocs often don't see patients frequently enough during the adjustment phase, and in many cases GPs are prescribing these drugs rather than pdocs. All of those contribute to the problem.
As for why Effexor is not the last resort drug -- and it's not, because there are much more problematic ADs out there -- it's partly because it's generally well tolerated, and it's different from SSRIs. Doctors prescribing antidepressants go through a sort of protocol that starts with SSRIs because they're pretty benign drugs from a medical viewpoint. From there, they'll usually go to the SNRIs, of which there are two: Cymbalta, which is a bit of a disappointment, and Effexor. Effexoer has been around a while, Cymbalta has been out for about a year and a half. Most doctors will go for what they know a bit better first -- hence, Effexor is often a second choice, rather than last choice. How can I call them benign drugs? From a medical viewpoint, they are: no cardiotoxicity, no hypertensive crisis, no hypotension, no known LD50 in many cases, etc. And they tend to be effective for many people, and generally with far fewer side effects than the TCAs or MAOIs. The other newer drugs, Remeron, Wellbutrin, etc, have their own drawbacks, which make them somewhat less popular. So, most doctors will start with SSRIs and go on to Effexor.
I am sorry about your experience.
Posted by Devastated Mother on January 24, 2006, at 18:29:32
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by nicky847 on January 24, 2006, at 10:49:55
I guess I could accept this if my son had had depression issues for years. He did not. He had a couple of things happen in his life that would have depressed anyone, and a bad doctor decided effexor would help. Just a bad choice on her part not to assume that there would be a need for someone else to know about her decision and it's potential effects.
Posted by Smeegle on January 24, 2006, at 19:23:38
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on January 24, 2006, at 18:29:32
Sorry to hear about your loss. Your post struck a chord with me because I attempted suicide while weaning off Effexor. Fortunately for me, I just ended up in the psych hospital for a couple of weeks while it cleared my system and my new meds started working. I don't blame my pdoc even though he didn't warn me. I was taking it before we started reading about the "possible" suicide potential in children but not once did I ever read that it was a strong possibility for adults as well. I am 42 and never had a suicidal thought before then. Effexor seemed like a miracle drug when I first started taking it. I thought I had my life back. But then we started having to increase my dose about ever six months until I reached the maximum dose my dr would prescribe and my bp was high. It was only when I stopped taking it that there just didn't seem to be any other options. Looking back I can see how irrational my thinking was, but at the time it was so vivid and painful. It was no longer a matter of 'would I', but rather a matter of 'when'. I am now on Lexapro and though I still have depression, my thinking is rational and I fully believe in my current state of mind I would have the courage to ask for help. I would never recommend Effexor to anyone for any reason. It's not worth the risk.
Posted by summerflowers on January 25, 2006, at 0:24:37
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » Devastated Mother, posted by Racer on January 24, 2006, at 12:59:46
> >
> >
> > However, I wonder if I have possibly misunderstood the black box. Is the patient expected to warn his/her family about the potential problems? The Black Box is the strongest thing they have. Beyond that, the doctors who prescribe these drugs are the ones who really have to step in to ensure the safety of their patients.>EXACTLY! Its like if you have an electrical problem say,in your house,you call in an electrician.You expect them to do their job safely,because it could be dangerous or lethal if it isnt.They get payd for their electrical expertise,Just like psychiatrists do.If the electrician causes a fire,they are liable for that,because they didnt do the job properly.People are warned about the dangers of electricity just as patients are warned of the dangers of these medications,but it is up to the experts to do their job-thoroughly!Just as an electrician or what have you.Man,I cant believe half of what goes on.
Posted by gardenergirl on January 25, 2006, at 22:57:53
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on January 24, 2006, at 18:29:32
> Just a bad choice on her part not to assume that there would be a need for someone else to know about her decision and it's potential effects.
Unless your son signed a consent for release of information, the doctor was not legally allowed to inform anyone about your son's being on psychotropic medications unless he directly expressed his intent to immediately harm himself to the doctor.
I'm sorry for your loss. I just wanted to clarify why a doctor might not inform an adult's parent about his care.
gg
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.