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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by tecknohed on December 31, 2005, at 15:55:34
Has anyone ever come accross, heard of or even experienced such a thing as an 'addiction to staying awake/not sleeping? Or maybe something like 'compulsive voluntary insomnia'?! With or without stimulant use?
Thoughts? Anyone?
Posted by ed_uk on December 31, 2005, at 16:13:05
In reply to Odd but serious query, posted by tecknohed on December 31, 2005, at 15:55:34
Hi K
At times, mainly when I was depressed, I liked to stay up all night and sleep all day. The peace of the night can be comforting.
HNY!
Ed
Posted by linkadge on December 31, 2005, at 16:45:59
In reply to Re: Odd but serious query » tecknohed, posted by ed_uk on December 31, 2005, at 16:13:05
If you are simply not sleeping, and liking it, it may be a symptom on the manic spectrum.
Linkadge
Posted by Racer on December 31, 2005, at 19:41:14
In reply to Odd but serious query, posted by tecknohed on December 31, 2005, at 15:55:34
When I'm depressed, but more so when I'm anxious, I'll go through periods when I will avoid going to bed. Somehow, being in bed at those times, trying to sleep, is worse than distracting myself out of bed.
Dunno if that makes any sense, but the answer is "I've never heard of it, but have experienced something I think is the same..." Hope that helps some?
Posted by Phillipa on December 31, 2005, at 20:20:40
In reply to Re: Odd but serious query, posted by Racer on December 31, 2005, at 19:41:14
If I stay up late the day is shorter. A sign of depression I think. Something about thinking the day is over. Plus I usually function better at night. When I wake-up it's always the thought. What am I going to do today. Don't know how to just chill. Get highly anaxious thinking like this. Back to depression/anxiety. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by tecknohed on December 31, 2005, at 20:22:21
In reply to Re: Odd but serious query, posted by linkadge on December 31, 2005, at 16:45:59
Happy New Year indeed!
To make things a bit clearer, I'll give an example.
I am DEFINITELY NOT hypo-manic. However, from the outside it would certainly seem a possibility. Since just before Xmas, I started using nasty/beautiful caffeine again. Well lets just call it a binge.
About 4 days ago I started to CRASH. Oh boy! I ached, I sweated and I slept 36hrs having continuous nightmares. But thats nothing new.
Friday I'm on the redbulls/guarana/dark choc again taking in loads caffeine (500mg ish which is a lot for me). Saturday I'm still awake, go to town and buy some Pep Pills. OOPS!
It's now 1:35am 1st Jan 06 and I'm still up and just took my last 2 Peps. I'll probably knock myself out in the morn with a Klonopin or two.
Now, here's the thing. I haven't been 'up' on caffein the whole time. In fact yesturday I went most of the day without any despite nearly dozing several times, feeling a bit sketchy and down AND going to town to face all those shoppers in this state. I JUST DIDN'T WANT TO SLEEP.
Sleep feels like a 'Killjoy'. As if I might miss something if I 'waste' my hours unconscious.
I often go for months on end caffein free but still I often try to stay up day-night-day on little more than my meds & PC. I normally end up waking at 5am with my head on my keyboard, often feeling 'defeated' by sleep.I beleive I've had a sleeping disorder maybe since pre-teens. Could never get out of bed in the morn. Everyone says that's normal. Not in my case. That played a big part in my failing school completely. In more recent years, I've had issues with stim misuse. Even caffein now feels like a 'hard' drug. I cannot apply for a day job because I know I will not make it on time for mornings. I'm stuck with night shifts. And I've spent many wasted months at a time on SSRIs which stoll a lot of my precious awake time. Nightmares are a big nuisance at times too.
So you can see why I might not be a big fan of sleep. I've little respect for it and find it wastes my time.
Of course the logical intelligent part of me (what there is left of it) knows I need sleep to heel, to grow, to recuperate, to live. But that side of me is just far too easy to block out.
Sorry for the marathon post. It's not an easy problem to explain. But like I said, that was all just an example of course ;-)
Posted by tecknohed on December 31, 2005, at 20:48:10
In reply to Re: Odd but serious query, posted by Phillipa on December 31, 2005, at 20:20:40
> If I stay up late the day is shorter. A sign of depression I think. Something about thinking the day is over. Plus I usually function better at night. When I wake-up it's always the thought. What am I going to do today. Don't know how to just chill. Get highly anaxious thinking like this. Back to depression/anxiety. Fondly, Phillipa
Hi Phillipa
That definitely rings true for me too, the thought or worry that the day is over. For myself, I can trace that feeling back to two things as a child. Firstly, I would feel that way at the end of Sunday evening bacause of school the following day, and also near the end of Summer break for the same reason. I hated school.
Secondly, I'd get it when my father would set off back home (again on a Sunday) after his fortnightly visit after my parents devorced. I still feel sad on a Sunday evening no matter what.
But I want to point out that depression has little to do with my current sleep problem (thankfully). In fact I'm more likely to avoid sleep 'deliberately' if I'm feeling particularly good, hence why 'I dont want it to end'.You sound quite down Phillipa. Are you finding things particularly hard at the moment? Excuse my apparent ignorance, I haven't been on the board for a while. I wonder what I might have missed. Feel free to babblemail if you like.
Take care.teck
Posted by tecknohed on December 31, 2005, at 21:06:29
In reply to Re: Odd but serious query » Phillipa, posted by tecknohed on December 31, 2005, at 20:48:10
Here's a thought.
I know little about the chemistry involved in sleep deprivation, but I'm sure some of you do.
Maybe there is something that happens or is formed in the brain which acts theraputicaly, and even acts or mimics a virtual 'high' or (in my case) addictive agent. I know many people report that a night without sleep can lift depression. Maybe this can be taken to excess, even abused?
Posted by JahL on December 31, 2005, at 22:42:30
In reply to Odd but serious query, posted by tecknohed on December 31, 2005, at 15:55:34
> Has anyone ever come accross, heard of or even experienced such a thing as an 'addiction to staying awake/not sleeping? Or maybe something like 'compulsive voluntary insomnia'?! With or without stimulant use?
>
> Thoughts? Anyone?Hi.
I experience diurnal mood variation, a fairly common phenomenon, on a daily basis. This is where one's mood slowly improves (or sometimes worsens) as the day progresses.
For myself, this means that by the time I feel vaguely human, the sun is rising (4:30am here in UK and I am about to go and lift some weights. Work that one out) and I don't want to go to sleep because I know I'll wake up feeling that much worse.
I can relate strongly to your experiences.
*Crappy* old year.
Happy new year.Jah.
Posted by ed_uk on January 1, 2006, at 2:52:27
In reply to Re: Odd but serious query » tecknohed, posted by JahL on December 31, 2005, at 22:42:30
Hi J :)
Haven't seen you for ages! How are you doing?
Regards
Ed
Posted by Jedi on January 1, 2006, at 4:20:33
In reply to Re: Odd but serious query » tecknohed, posted by JahL on December 31, 2005, at 22:42:30
> I experience diurnal mood variation, a fairly common phenomenon, on a daily basis. This is where one's mood slowly improves (or sometimes worsens) as the day progresses.
>
> For myself, this means that by the time I feel vaguely human, the sun is rising (4:30am here in UK and I am about to go and lift some weights. Work that one out) and I don't want to go to sleep because I know I'll wake up feeling that much worse.
...Hi Jah,
I can really relate to your daily mood swings. When I get up in the morning, I always feel bad. After a few cups of Java and a little time to get going, I will generally start to feel better. This is when I am in remission. In full blown atypical depression, I never feel good.I was blaming the insomnia on my meds: Nardil, Klonopin & Omega-3; but your story seems to fit me to a T. It is now 2:15AM on New Year's Day. I rarely go to bed before 2:00AM and often it is 5:00 or 6:00AM. Sometimes not at all. You guys are not alone.
Sleep Well,
Jedi
Posted by JahL on January 1, 2006, at 19:50:59
In reply to Re: Odd but serious query » JahL, posted by ed_uk on January 1, 2006, at 2:52:27
> Hi J :)
>
> Haven't seen you for ages! How are you doing?Hi Ed.
You know when you have nothing positive to say, sometimes it's best to just zip it?
I'll let you into a secret - I probably only posted last night because I had been a bad boy. I haven't touched any Class A for 8 or 9 years but I was so *bored* last night I decided to swallow some MDMA crystal someone had handed me a while back. I was able to spontaneously smile for the first time in god knows how long. It's (smiling) not something I do very often - back in my clubbing days I would have girls approach me and say "will you smile for ****'s sake!?!?". Seriously. Once a very attractive girl grabbed me by the chops and *made* me smile! Dyin' for it ;-) [reminisces...]
Anyway, that more sociable state lasted a couple of hours and suffice to say I currently inhabit the same dark place I always have.
Hope exists though in the form of a Chinese source for Mifepristone - the drug I think most likely to help me. I'll start one of those drug-blogs here when it arrives. I might be the first? Vicodin is unsurprisingly proving much more difficult to source, but the hunt goes on.
Oh. After 8 years I no longer have a pdoc. I recently moved house and was assigned to this new guy. A socially inept little narcissist, he originally assigned me to a 25 year old SHO who 'wasn't familiar' with Bipolar NOS. Great start. Didn't show his face til my 3rd appt and then only to tell me that I 'obviously' needed to 'reason my way out of Bipolar' (WTF???). I questioned his grasp of psychiatry - he told me he 'didn't believe' in drugs - only for him to tell me he thought it was possible to 'talk' people out of having diabetes (I had made the biological disorder comparison). I kid you not.
I felt a strong impulse to chin him - I get a lot of violent ideation - and so I *had* to walk out, though not before delivering a well-constructed (if I say so myself) character assassination right in front of his protege. I now have to pay £240 an hour to go private. :-(
Anyway, self-absorbed ramble over.
So how is life treating you?
You seem as chirpy and prolific as ever :-)
I noticed you were posting late last night. Does that mean you missed all the festivities?
I really missed the sparkling company of all those once a year beer-monster lightweights...
Take care,
J.
Posted by JahL on January 1, 2006, at 20:15:30
In reply to Re: Odd but serious query » JahL, posted by Jedi on January 1, 2006, at 4:20:33
> This is when I am in remission.
Remind me what that is...
> In full blown atypical depression, I never feel good.
Me neither. When I talk of improvement, we're talking very incremental. Still, it means I can get a few essential things done later on. I'm sure you're the same.
> I was blaming the insomnia on my meds: Nardil, Klonopin & Omega-3;I find 1mg of Klonopin essential for stopping night waking (MJ to get off in the first place). I think Nardil might have a reputation for being the most 'activating' of the MAOIs though. Tranylcipromine knocked me out - Nardil tripped me out.
> but your story seems to fit me to a T. It is now 2:15AM on New Year's Day. I rarely go to bed before 2:00AM and often it is 5:00 or 6:00AM. Sometimes not at all.
Tell me about it. My brother & I are both Bipolar NOS and occasionally become a little hypomanic late on. That little party animal can stay up for 3 or 4 days w/o trying. I normally start hearing things by that stage...
> You guys are not alone.
Indeed. Take it easy,
J.
> Sleep Well,
> Jedi
Posted by ed_uk on January 1, 2006, at 23:15:48
In reply to Re: Odd but serious query » ed_uk, posted by JahL on January 1, 2006, at 19:50:59
Hi J
>I was able to spontaneously smile for the first time in god knows how long.
MDMA can be good for that ;-)
>Chinese source for Mifepristone
You do know that right people, don't you? Please post when you get hold of it.
>25 year old SHO who 'wasn't familiar'
Don't you just love them.........I sympathise I really do. The problem is, they're often no better by the time they reach consultant level.
>So how is life treating you?
Life is ok :) I'm working now, University didn't work out.
>I noticed you were posting late last night. Does that mean you missed all the festivities?
We had family/friends over. I stayed up really late. I was pretty intoxicated so I hope my posts make sense.
Take care,
Ed
Posted by JahL on January 1, 2006, at 23:56:33
In reply to Re: Odd but serious query » JahL, posted by ed_uk on January 1, 2006, at 23:15:48
> MDMA can be good for that ;-)Remember your first ever Love Dove? [reminiscing again...] Actually you're probably a bit young to have sampled those delights. Mitsubishis? :-)
> >Chinese source for Mifepristone
> You do know that right people, don't you?Anyone I don't know ain't worth knowing, my son ;-)
> Please post when you get hold of it.Without a shadow. This site is in need of the odd success (pleeeaaaase) story or two. I know Scott for one will be interested in the outcome.
> The problem is, they're often no better by the time they reach consultant level.With a guy like that as her mentor the poor girl has no chance. I told her as much as I flounced out.
> I'm working now, University didn't work out.
I'm sorry to hear that. Any particular reason? You obviously possess the necessary intellect and application.
I'm a passionate believer in education. I was so proud of myself when I won a place at University College London to read Economics - especially when you consider what I had to go through to get the grades. Unfortunately this was roundabout when the Bipolar *really* kicked in and I eventually waved the white flag and dropped out.
I'm 30 next year but I have every intention, once in remission, of returning to UCL to study Law. I'm an argumentative sob and so the hat fits ;-)
I can't imagine not having a true profession. Does this mean you're no longer working for the hospital???
> We had family/friends over.
Ahh...cool. I can't really recommend the 'sitting on your own getting stoned' option..
Ta,
J.
Posted by ed_uk on January 2, 2006, at 5:04:44
In reply to Re: Odd but serious query » ed_uk, posted by JahL on January 1, 2006, at 23:56:33
Hi J
>Does this mean you're no longer working for the hospital???
No, I don't work for a hospital. I've been working in a pharmacy/shop since the summer.
I might return to uni some day but I can't at the moment. I missed a lot of exams due to illness and I don't have the motivation to catch up - I never liked the pharmacy degree.
Take care
Ed
Posted by ghostshadow on January 2, 2006, at 20:13:47
In reply to Odd but serious query, posted by tecknohed on December 31, 2005, at 15:55:34
heard of, no. understand, yes. times i'm very far down, even with no energy to speak of, i'll stay up absolutely so long as i can. i think i do it so that when i do sleep it's dreamless...
Posted by kerria on January 3, 2006, at 1:47:42
In reply to Odd but serious query, posted by tecknohed on December 31, 2005, at 15:55:34
Lots of nights i avoid going to bed because of nightmares. Sometimes it feels like i don't want to miss anything- or waste time sleeping, even though i already AM sleeping sitting up- but that's the real reason. i always have bad dreams.
kerria
Posted by nicky847 on January 3, 2006, at 10:32:30
In reply to Odd but serious query, posted by tecknohed on December 31, 2005, at 15:55:34
it can also be symptomatic of an anxiety disorder..have you tried setting aside time to do relaxation/deep breathing exercises? it may help your body to relax, which eventually will make it easier for you to fall asleep.
Posted by Phillipa on January 3, 2006, at 16:50:12
In reply to Re: Odd but serious query, posted by nicky847 on January 3, 2006, at 10:32:30
What if your anxiety is so high you can't even remember to take a deep breath let alone trying to follow a program of deep breathing excercises. they used to work for me before. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by nicky847 on January 4, 2006, at 10:40:30
In reply to Re: Odd but serious query » nicky847, posted by Phillipa on January 3, 2006, at 16:50:12
I've found that when I am in those situations, it helps to breathe OUT..an anxiety attack is often fueled by rapid breathing, and an overabundance of oxygen..if you are in such a state of high anxiety that you cannot take a deep breath, it is likely you are hyperventilating..the first thing i would do is take a deep breath out, blowing all the air out of your lungs for about 3 seconds, then do that as often as necessary until you can begin to breath in deeply thru the diaphragm
hope that helps you a little it has worked for me in the past
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