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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by UgottaHaveHOPE on November 29, 2005, at 5:02:12
Before you fire back, please read through what I have to say very carefully and closely. After that, you are more than welcome to fire back and I in fact encourage dialogue. That is what this message board is for.
Back to my statement: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A MAGIC PILL. I am talking ONLY about people with anxiety and depression because those are the emotional issues I have dealt with. Others in here that deal with schiz, BiPolar, etc., I cannot relate to you. My heart goes out to you.
OK, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A MAGIC PILL, which means that there is no medicine that's going wipe away all of your problems without you having to deal with them. So many people, and I myself have been guilty of this perhaps more than anyone, think that you can take some pill and all of your woes will magically disappear ... and life will be perfect. Ha! Now you understand the context that I make my statement in.
My opinion of meds: They are wonderful, miraculous and a gift from God. They have helped so many people in here, and it's just going to get better in the future when they learn more about how the brain operates. I have had a wonderful experience with Seroquel, which has helped terminate anxiety issues that tormented me 24/7 for eight long years.
So that leads me to my point, which is THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A MAGIC PILL. While thank God the Seroquel dealt with my racing thoughts, the med did not change any of my thoughts, beliefs and attitudes. I still feel like I should be doing something else with my life, like I should get more out of today, like yesterday was a waste, that I deserve better, that I am not good enough, that life is passing by, and that I constantly fear failure. No medicine will ever address those issues or make them go away. And many of those deep, deep issues were/are the stuff I worried about that most likely ignited my anxiety and depression, slowly but surely over time.
Again, meds are great. I thank God every day for them. But long term healing and long term solutions are deeper. They deal with changing your attitudes and thought patterns. It is very difficult but it can be done and has been done by many ppl in this room.
So please I urge you when you find a med that is working well for you, DO NOT STOP THERE. Continue with working on your thought process. This is a TWO STEP PROCESS.
People out there who know the deal know what I am talking about: We will find a great med and chill for a while, pushing your thought exercises to the back. Then eventually the period of stabilization will end and because you havent worked on your mind like you should, you will be back on that rocky road again.
Posted by arina on November 29, 2005, at 5:45:40
In reply to There is no such thing as a magic pill, posted by UgottaHaveHOPE on November 29, 2005, at 5:02:12
I think any mental illness stems from deep down,and that everyones personality and character is very different hence the many different ways of acting it out (or bottling it) hence the large list of mentall disorders they have to fit someone into.I do agree with you, pills BRING RELIEF to the strongest symptoms hopefully, but its like a plaster,the problem is also deep down in the heart .Arina
Posted by xbunny on November 29, 2005, at 7:06:47
In reply to There is no such thing as a magic pill, posted by UgottaHaveHOPE on November 29, 2005, at 5:02:12
I firmly beleive there are people with mental illness (including depression and anxiety) whose negative psychological issues, attitudes and beliefs only stem from their mental illness. Without the mental illness they would be normal (to a reasonable definition of normal). For such people a pill which alone can reduce their mental illness will by itself help change those things. For those people that pill is the magic pill they are seeking and I beleive for some it does exist.
Posted by willyee on November 29, 2005, at 14:18:11
In reply to There is such thing as a magic pill, posted by xbunny on November 29, 2005, at 7:06:47
I agree......if you find a pill and work on "thought excersises,this would still be obessing on the fact you are somoehow sick"
"NORMAL" people just live,they dont have mind excersises,they dont think about depression,or work on it everday,and i know it sounds like asking a lot from a pill,but i personaly want to find a pill which i doubt exists that oblivates depression,so i can live a normal life,so i can never think abou CLINICAL depression ever again,and i dont mean the everyday blues,im sure next to clincial we all can handle those.
If i find a pill that works,i dont wanna do mind excersies,i dont wanna do talk therapy,i wanna forget what depression means.I wanna live,and without this crippling disesae i am postive i can handle external situations just as easy as anyone else does.
I wanna be like my brother,he has a poor diet,excesise is aline to him,yet he always is smiling,always in a postive mood,and cant even understand what i am going through cause this type of feeling is alien to him,he has his dowsns but they fade in a day or two,this is normal.
I want to deal wtih my situations,like a normal person,and i want medicine to do what medicine is supposed to,take it and dont think about it afetr,the only thing i want to think about is making sure i take my medicine.I can handle my life if i dident have this disablity.
But i feel this wont happen cause i dont believe we have MEDICINDE available to us,we have DRUGS,drugs which dont treat the direct pyhiscal cause due to the fact we dont know what is the culprit,whe have ideas,but we dont know.So we use what we have available to us,drugs,in thehopes that one of these drugs has a method of action good enogh to surpress our disease enough so we can function like we were supposed to function.I doubt all of us here,the tons of people need to work on mind excersises,i know all they do for me is remind me of the disease.
When im in remission,the first thing i do is call a friend,and GET OUT OF THE HOUSE,i go to the mall,i eat at arestarouant i do all the things i have trouble doiung,sitting at home doing a mind excersise is not what i wanna do.
This of course is my opinion,i dont pose my statemtns as facts ever.
Posted by linkadge on November 29, 2005, at 15:15:56
In reply to Re: There is such thing as a magic pill, posted by willyee on November 29, 2005, at 14:18:11
There is no pill that will solve all of your problems.
Well people don't go around in la-la ecstacy land all day long, they've got crap in their lives that they have to deal with too.
Pills can't fix the bad things you have to deal with in life. They may make it more tollerable up to a finite point.I think that people often overlook situational causes of depression.
I know last year in school, I was extremely suicidal. I kept thinking to myself, oh I'm chemically imballanced, bla bla. But then I realized that it was my lifestyle that was the biggest contributor, but I refused to believe that at the time because I knew that I didn't want to think about that possability becuase it wasn't something I could change at the time.
Medications can help, but I think that depression is rarely something that a medication can completely erase forever.
Linkadge
Posted by UgottaHaveHope on November 29, 2005, at 16:18:13
In reply to Re: There is such thing as a magic pill, posted by linkadge on November 29, 2005, at 15:15:56
In my opinion (and this is not fact), the medicine was and is a blessing to calm me down.
The next and most important step was working on my thought patterns. Not necessarily "thought exercises", but basically focusing on the things I have rather than not have. And then you have to work on your brain's interpretation of things, i.e. your thoughts, attitudes and beliefs.
For example, I picked up a new $400 stove for a friend at Home Depot. It fell out of my truck on the way back and was crushed by a 18 wheeler. I was really bummed, to the point I went to sleep. Then I transformed my thinking. Instead of being down, I thought about how BLESSED I was. This was a heavy stove and a week before in a neighboring city the same thing had happened and a car behind hit the stove and one person died. No one was injured in my mishap. On top of that, I got lucky because my insurance rates didnt go up. If a regular car wouldve hit it, I wouldve had a claim against me and be paying higher insurance rates for the next few years. This big 18 wheeler, it never stopped.
So when I transformed my thinking, I realized this was a lucky and blessed day for me. No one was injured or killed and material things (even expensive ones) can be replaced.
That's what you have to do ... to train your mind to look at things another way. Instead of saying "Aw man, my dream girl turned me down for a date" ... say "OK, I asked out my dream girl and she said No. But at least I had the guts to ask her and now know how she feels. I can live with striking out, but never trying is true failure."
OR "man, I hate this rainy weather" when you should sayt to yourself "you know what? my yard desperately needs this rain. It will make it grow better." etc, etc, etc. I could go and on.
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on November 29, 2005, at 17:05:49
In reply to Re: The battle of the mind, posted by UgottaHaveHope on November 29, 2005, at 16:18:13
I have to totally agree with you Linkage and UGHH.
I definatly think so much is related to thought processes, and situational circumstances. Its just when you're at the bottom of a pit you can't see clearly around you.
For instance, I catch myself intrepreting the same things very differently than my boyfriend or friends. I can't think of anything specific, but its usually subtle differences in perception.
Posted by pseudoname on November 29, 2005, at 19:56:01
In reply to There is no such thing as a magic pill, posted by UgottaHaveHOPE on November 29, 2005, at 5:02:12
> ...there is no medicine that's going wipe away all of your problems without you having to deal with them. ...
> THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A MAGIC PILLUgo, I think you are probably responding to some specific post(s) that look to you like examples of believing this. Could you point to them? As it is, the thing you describe doesn't exactly seem to be a run-away problem on Babble.
...UNLESS, of course, you're talking about the thousands of threads where people excitedly trade suggestions for the latest sure-fire combo (!) or rejoice when they get into an experimental trial for a rumored wonder-drug (!!) or crow about getting a script for the next great off-label breakthrough (!!!) or enthusiastically post twice-daily reports about how the new Great Wyeth Hope is affecting them (!!!!) —or express true grief when their last hopeful regimen fails utterly.
I still don't see those threads as worrisome: far from it. However, I can see how after a while their intensity could give the impression that the writers have a very narrow view of mental health.
But are those even the posts you mean? I wish you would give a couple examples, please. Until you do, it's reasonable to assume that *this* thread (well, probably one of its similarly focused kin) was your reference: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20051112/msgs/579345.html
Posted by Phillipa on November 29, 2005, at 23:45:53
In reply to You talkin' to me? » UgottaHaveHOPE, posted by pseudoname on November 29, 2005, at 19:56:01
You are all correct. I believe I started a Thread a while ago looking for a magic pill. I am very negative. The glass is always half empty not full. And getting out of the house is the very best thing you can do. Even if it's only for an hour. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by UgottaHaveHope on November 30, 2005, at 3:42:32
In reply to Re: You talkin' to me?, posted by Phillipa on November 29, 2005, at 23:45:53
I have not heard about or read the aforementioned threads, nor do I intend to, therefore I politely say that your assumption is incorrect.
I just wrote what was on my mind, basing it mainly on my own experiences. What I write is only opinion and not fact. Anyone is welcome to agree or disagree. My only purpose is to share my experiences to help others!
Posted by Bryco on November 30, 2005, at 5:18:02
In reply to There is no such thing as a magic pill, posted by UgottaHaveHOPE on November 29, 2005, at 5:02:12
It's funny that you say that while your nickname is 'always have hope' :-)
there aren't magical pills, pills are just like science: very rational.
So if a pill works awesome for you, it's just because the puzzle clicks nicely together, not because of magic.I do believe there are many pills that are very very very good, you just gotta find the right one.
Posted by linkadge on November 30, 2005, at 9:13:47
In reply to Re: There is no such thing as a magic pill, posted by Bryco on November 30, 2005, at 5:18:02
But the "right one" might not be the one that you expect is the right one.
Some people's idea of the right drug is on that takes care of all of their problems and has no side effects.
But, the right one is that works best, and to assume that it will match everything that one anticipated is unlikely.
Some people ditch the drug that was most likely their best shot based on their search for something unrealistic. That to me, is the biggest mistake, and worthy of the statement "you will never find a magic pill"
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 30, 2005, at 9:22:17
In reply to Re: There is no such thing as a magic pill, posted by linkadge on November 30, 2005, at 9:13:47
Also, sometimes the meds can make people hypomanic. I know a few people in my life who have been on this rollercoaster in attempts to reclaim past hypomanic episodes.
The elusiveness of hypomania is the pressing notion that it is "attainable". And I think this is at the heart of many people's pill search. Just because a legal drug makes one hypomanic, does not make the state 'normal'.
To make a long story short, I think it is also necessary to determine weather what one is looking for is indeed normal and realistic, otherwise bad things can ultimately result.Even mild hypomania can lead to 'significant burnout' down the road.
Linkadge
Posted by pseudoname on November 30, 2005, at 11:00:34
In reply to Re: There is no such thing as a magic pill, posted by linkadge on November 30, 2005, at 9:13:47
> Some people ditch the drug that was most likely their best shot based on their search for something unrealistic.
Linkadge, I think this is a great observation, although I would say it applies even more often to PLAUSIBLE improvements than to "unrealistic" ones.
I think "the perfect becomes the enemy of the good" so easily in psychopharmacy because...
(a) we can usually only work on one regimen at a time, requiring that we ditch a good one if trying another
(b) even when we get partial benefit, unfavorable comparisons are still VERY easy for depressed people to make: •to our own off-the-chart experiences (religious ecstasy, rec drug highs, hypomania, etc); •to times in our lives when meds gave more benefit (80% compared to 40%, e.g.); •to other people who seem happier or better-adjusted than we are; •to theory-based standards (like how an oedipally-resolved man "should" feel about his lover, or how good an NRI-responder's attention "should" be); •to others' descriptions of their improvement
(c) we sometimes feel justified putting parts of our lives on hold while we wait for a better drug response.Of these, I think (c) is the most dangerous.
Unfortunately, I haven't had this dilemma because until this month, meds have never given me enough benefit to trade away. But yesterday (in the thread UgottaHaveHope refused to read) I was considering 40% improvement to be a comparative failure. Then I realized, "two weeks ago I would've killed for 40%!"
Posted by Bryco on November 30, 2005, at 12:08:07
In reply to Re: There is no such thing as a magic pill, posted by linkadge on November 30, 2005, at 9:22:17
Hey Linkadge,
If what i tend to believe is correct, our problems have to do with abnormal amounts of certain substances in our brain, e.g dopamine or any other. This means that, since we are able to chemically reproduce most of those substances, we are also able to compensate the missing substances with medicine.
The only problem is that it is almost improssible the know exactely how much of which substances your brain needs. Maybe in the far future there will be machines that can register exactely what the problems in your brain are, but until then, the only way to find out is by trial-and-error. This offcourse isn't a very accurate way, and exact recovery of the normal state with medicine is therefore hard to achieve.
your way of thinking makes sense tough, you're probably right when you say many people strive for a utophy instead of normal recovery, but that's probably because the depression has lasted for so long that they can't remember what normal state actually is...
Posted by linkadge on November 30, 2005, at 12:46:11
In reply to Re: There is no such thing as a magic pill, posted by Bryco on November 30, 2005, at 12:08:07
See thats the thing. I went for many years on that premise. I figured I have a bad serotonin gene and that I am chronically low in serotonin or something.
As I researched the topic more fully, I realized that these basic assumptions are not entirely accurate. In fact low serotonin in depression is not readily reproducable. Some studies find small correlations and many other studies find no correlation.I know the tendancy is to not believe what I am saying. But looking at the research leads to completely inconclusive and contredictory results, regarding the monoamine hypothesis of affective disorders.
Its like with alzheimers disease. The drug companies would have you believe that it is due to low acetylcholine, hence why their drug Aricept works. But some of the most believable research (albeit bleak) shows that it is related to structural abnormalities, plaques, tangles, what have you.
I said in previous posts, that there is a Europeen antidepressant called tianeptine. It acts as a serotonin uptake accelerator, ie in a way exactly opposite to how SSRI's work.
So over in Europe, the inference might be that depression is due to high serotonin.
My non depressed friend, who stole some of my effexor once, told me that if he had a prescription for it, that he would take it. I asked him if he was depressed and he said "no, but it peps me up".
In short, I medicated myself for the past 6 years thinking neurotransmitter X was out of line. And (at the end of the day), i never really got anywhere. I just got enought of a jolt from the meds to keep the fairytale playing a little longer.
Linkadge
Posted by UgottaHaveHope on November 30, 2005, at 13:06:56
In reply to Re: There is no such thing as a magic pill, posted by linkadge on November 30, 2005, at 12:46:11
That's how true learning is done on this message board, by sharing the cold and hard truth as you are doing. It is very informative and helpful. Thank you so much for being so forthcoming.
Bryco, I agree with you: When you get so down and out, as I have been, you forget what being normal is. I got so messed up that I began to think that the abnormal was normal. In other words, whenever I felt better, I felt like that was awkward and not the norm.
Thanks everyone for sharing their thoughts on this very opinionated subject. It is very interesting to hear you thoughts and perspectives. Hopefully we will learn something from this. Bless every one of you!
Posted by linkadge on November 30, 2005, at 13:22:18
In reply to Thanks Linkadge for sharing your experiences, posted by UgottaHaveHope on November 30, 2005, at 13:06:56
Thats it. I really don't want people to get the wrong idea.
I am not against people getting better. I want people to get better. But if people don't hear the many sides of the medication story, then they may end up having problems like I, and a few others on this board have had with long term med use.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on November 30, 2005, at 20:23:44
In reply to Re: There is no such thing as a magic pill, posted by Bryco on November 30, 2005, at 12:08:07
Bryco, Exactly! Fondly, Phillipa
This is the end of the thread.
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