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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by spriggy on November 21, 2005, at 1:02:30
I have a question--
If coffee temporarily lifts depression (for several hours)- and the main chemical for producing that feeling is dopamine... then which AD would best mimick that?
To my knowledge, Wellbutrin is the only one that just hits dopamine? Or am I wrong?
Posted by WeeWilly on November 21, 2005, at 7:54:53
In reply to dopamine, coffee, and wellbutrin?, posted by spriggy on November 21, 2005, at 1:02:30
The mode of action of all psychoactive medications is not known!
Posted by RetiredYoung on November 21, 2005, at 11:12:37
In reply to dopamine, coffee, and wellbutrin?, posted by spriggy on November 21, 2005, at 1:02:30
Lots of sources say that Wellbutrin hits norepinephrine, as well as dopamine.
Posted by cache-monkey on November 21, 2005, at 12:42:32
In reply to Re: dopamine, coffee, and wellbutrin?, posted by RetiredYoung on November 21, 2005, at 11:12:37
> Lots of sources say that Wellbutrin hits norepinephrine, as well as dopamine.
I seem to remember reading that Wellbutrin actually hits norepinephrine harder than dopamine...
~cache-monkey
Posted by spriggy on November 21, 2005, at 13:10:46
In reply to Re: dopamine, coffee, and wellbutrin?, posted by cache-monkey on November 21, 2005, at 12:42:32
Posted by Phillipa on November 21, 2005, at 21:03:19
In reply to Re: dopamine, coffee, and wellbutrin?, posted by cache-monkey on November 21, 2005, at 12:42:32
My vote would be the wellbutrin too. Made me kind of manic and coffee gives me panic attacks. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by pseudoname on November 21, 2005, at 21:46:49
In reply to dopamine, coffee, and wellbutrin?, posted by spriggy on November 21, 2005, at 1:02:30
> If coffee temporarily lifts depression (for several hours)...
Caffeine does it for me, too, but I don't notice it lasting several hours, and I develop tolerance to it immediately. After 3 caffeinated mornings, it's useless.
Ritalin and Adderall give the same sort of lift for me, and they increase dopamine. Tolerance is a problem with these also, though.
Have you tried stimulants?
Several trials of Wellbutrin did nothing for me.
Posted by WeeWilly on November 22, 2005, at 0:33:45
In reply to Re: dopamine, coffee, and wellbutrin?, posted by RetiredYoung on November 21, 2005, at 11:12:37
> Lots of sources say that Wellbutrin hits norepinephrine, as well as dopamine.
Those sources could be right, they could be wrong. Does Wellbutrin only hit these sites? The overwhelming consensis says it hits many others and likely some not known. The mode of action of Wellbutrin like all psychoactive meds is NOT known.
Posted by lunesta on November 22, 2005, at 3:26:17
In reply to dopamine, coffee, and wellbutrin?, posted by spriggy on November 21, 2005, at 1:02:30
coffee works by reducing adenosine in the brain, which wakes you up. adenosine is neuroprotective especially when there is a neurotoxocicity issue like glutamate overload.
doesnt work via dopamine @ all.
Posted by lunesta on November 22, 2005, at 3:29:13
In reply to dopamine, coffee, and wellbutrin?, posted by spriggy on November 21, 2005, at 1:02:30
the bes thing out there that a doctor would be willing to give usually (short of the schedule II meds) is Provigil, which is the most pro dopamine medicine at the higher end doses 200mg-400mg usually. It hits right where an ampetamine would hit at those higher dosages, dopamine. Thats probably why its scheduled substance :)
otherwise there isnt much but welbutrin doesnt do well compared to pro-v.
Posted by pseudoname on November 22, 2005, at 7:12:56
In reply to Re: dopamine, coffee, and wellbutrin? » spriggy, posted by lunesta on November 22, 2005, at 3:26:17
lunesta, do you mean coffee/caffeine when you say this?
> doesnt work via dopamine @ all
Can you say what you mean or what you're referencing? Thanks.
Caffeine unquestionably involves dopamine; its antidepressant effect is most likely tied to DA release in the prefrontal cortex. And the fact that caffeine blocks adenosine doesn't mean that caffeine doesn't also "work via" DA. (Caffeine doesn't necessarily "reduce" adenosine, as you say; it just acts as a nonselective adenosine receptor antagonist.)
Posted by lunesta on November 23, 2005, at 15:50:57
In reply to coffee and dopamine » lunesta, posted by pseudoname on November 22, 2005, at 7:12:56
I haven't seen literature that caffeeine increases or effects dopamine receptors in my readings/studies. I know it does effect adensoine greatly, and nor/epinephrine.
Can you provide any links that caffee/coffee effects dopamine positively?
If so I would be delighted. I study pharmacology so knowing that is a helpful peice of information/knowledge.
Thanks
lunny
Posted by pseudoname on November 23, 2005, at 18:23:48
In reply to Re: coffee and dopamine » pseudoname, posted by lunesta on November 23, 2005, at 15:50:57
> I haven't seen literature that caffeeine increases or effects dopamine receptors in my readings/studies
The forcefulness of your declaration, "[Coffee] doesnt work via dopamine @ all," sounded pretty authoritative. I'm sure you'd agree that it would be too bad if a line of investigation, like spriggy's about her depression lifting and its possible connections with coffee and dopamine, were prematurely cut off.
> Can you provide any links that caffee/coffee effects dopamine positively?
Marshall Brain's caffeine pages are a place to start: http://www.howstuffworks.com/caffeine.htm
My specific reference to the prefrontal cortex was from this abstract: "Are we dependent upon coffee and caffeine? A review" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=99171902&dopt=Citation
> I study pharmacology
You mean formally, at school? Cool! Or like most of us Babblers, for non-credit understanding? (Also pretty cool, of course.)
Posted by lunesta on November 24, 2005, at 13:26:41
In reply to caffeine reading » lunesta, posted by pseudoname on November 23, 2005, at 18:23:48
I am sorry if I came across as if it was a fact. The evidence you cite doesnt personally convince me of dopamine involvement in the rewarding and antidepressant effect of caffeeine. Dopamine is involved in every addiction, so you cant always go back on it as a failsafe. What receptors does it effect exactly, auto receptors, post synaptic? is it in an area that matters?
Anytime you slow done adenosine and increase brain energy and excitation you will have a rise in neurotransmitters, so that is a given IMO.
Again, sorry if i was a bit blunt but unless you can cite more evidence, i dont think caffeines antidepressant activity is via dopamine? Unless, are you saying, the other compenent in coffee, or chcolate, i think its called theobormide or something, now that is something. Again, if you can post the article #'s from medline/pubmed or a scientific journal and not a random web writeup i would love to look into this more and learn.
lunny
Posted by Phillipa on November 24, 2005, at 21:56:03
In reply to Re: caffeine reading » pseudoname, posted by lunesta on November 24, 2005, at 13:26:41
Could it be theophylline? It's in chocolate. As a medication is used for bronchodilator but also to help you regain your taste. Although this is not commonly known a lot of people myself included lose their sense of taste and smell and theophylline is what the taste and smell centers are using. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Ryan2828 on November 25, 2005, at 5:02:59
In reply to Re: caffeine reading » lunesta, posted by Phillipa on November 24, 2005, at 21:56:03
I would like to know to because I am drinking coffee now and that is the only way I can read this, without my current coffee buzz, I would not be reading this thread, its terrible because after the coffee goes away I am back were I started. Does Provigil work as a stimulant like adderrall? or Ritalin? because I am anxious to start a trial with my doctor to see if it helps. Because of my past addiction to pot,alchohol,meth use, I almost feel my dopamine levels have been depleted, I have to have coffee in order to read I have to have coffee just to do the laundry?
Posted by lunesta on November 25, 2005, at 14:58:34
In reply to Re: caffeine reading, posted by Ryan2828 on November 25, 2005, at 5:02:59
Lower doses of provigil act like super coffee but with no jitters. Higher doses act more like a mild amphetamine because of dopamine involvement. Using provigil daily can cause tolerance, the best way is like 3X a week. I you have anxiety, a benzo can smooth our the provigil greatly and you can feel very very good.
Posted by Ryan2828 on November 25, 2005, at 17:33:29
In reply to Re: caffeine reading - provigil... » Ryan2828, posted by lunesta on November 25, 2005, at 14:58:34
I am a bit skeptical because of the tolerance, the tolerance issue concerns me. I get the feeling that if I get tolerant to Provigil that then I will want more and more.
Posted by pseudoname on November 25, 2005, at 19:50:25
In reply to Re: caffeine reading » pseudoname, posted by lunesta on November 24, 2005, at 13:26:41
Hey, lunny.
> ...unless you can cite more evidence, i dont think caffeines antidepressant activity is via dopamine?
I thought you might find these references interesting, particularly the ones about the adenosine connection. Not all of the papers are available online, but you probably have school access to them.
I began by looking at Hughes et al (Caffeine and Schizophrenia. <Psychiatric Services> 1998; 49:1415-1417 http://ps.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/49/11/1415), who summarized the research this way: "Caffeine has well-documented effects on dopamine...."
Kaasinen et al (Dopaminergic effects of caffeine in the human striatum and thalamus. <Neuroreport> 2004; 15(2):281-285 http://www.neuroreport.com/pt/re/neuroreport/abstract.00001756-200402090-00014.htm) summarized their own research this way: "The findings indicate that caffeine has effects on dopaminergic neurotransmission in the human brain, which may be differential in the striatum and the thalamus."
You found Nehlig (Are we dependent upon coffee and caffeine? A review. <Neuroscience & Biobehavioral Reviews> 1999; 23(4): 563-76 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=99171902&dopt=Citation) unpersuasive by herself, but the article *is* scholarly and supports the nontrivial involvement of dopamine: "[C]affeine doses that reflect the daily human consumption, do not induce a release of dopamine in the shell of the nucleus accumbens but lead to a release of dopamine in the prefrontal cortex, which is consistent with caffeine{'s] reinforcing properties." Incidentally, Nehlig wrote the book on "Coffee Tea Chocolate and the Brain."
Mumford & Holtzman (Qualitative differences in the discriminative stimulus effects of low and high doses of caffeine in the rat. <Journal of Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics> 1991; 258:857-865 http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/258/3/857) trained rats to recognize when an injection was a relatively low dose of caffeine rather than saline. When the rats were then injected with drugs known to activate dopamine receptors, they responded as though getting caffeine.
"The positive stimulatory effects of caffeine appear in large measure to be due to blockade of [adenosine] A2A receptors that stimulate GABAergic neurons of inhibitory pathways to the dopaminergic reward system of the striatum." –Daly & Fredholm (Caffeine: an atypical drug of dependence. <Drug and Alcohol Dependence> 1998; 51:199-206 http://www.anakata.hack.se/papers/pdf/Drug_Alcohol_Depend-51-199.pdf)
"Activation [by caffeine] of the [adenosine] A2a receptor makes dopamine less efficient as a neurotransmitter; thus, by blocking this receptor, caffeine enhances the ability of dopamine to function as a neurotransmitter" –Hughes et al. citing Ferre et al (Adenosine-dopamine interactions in the brain. <Neuroscience> 1992; 51:501-512 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=1488111&dopt=Abstract )
Garrett & Griffiths (The role of dopamine in the behavioral effects of caffeine in animals and humans. <Pharmacology, Biochemistry and Behavior> 1997; 53:533-541 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9218278&dopt=Citation) summarize their study this way: "Thus, caffeine, as a competitive antagonist at adenosine receptors, may produce its behavioral effects by removing the negative modulatory effects of adenosine from dopamine receptors, thus stimulating dopaminergic activity. ... Furthermore, caffeine potentiates the effects of dopamine-mediated drugs on these same behaviors, and some of caffeine's effects on these behaviors can be blocked by dopamine receptor antagonists."
"Caffeine appears capable of *priming* the dopaminergic reward circuitry that is important to cocaine-abuse" [emphasis added]. –Horger et al (Caffeine exposure sensitizes rats to the reinforcing effects of cocaine. <Neuroreport> 1991; 2:53-56 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1768850&dopt=Abstract)
Remember, the assertion I am disputing is that caffeine "doesnt work via dopamine @ all." As I said in my original response,
> And the fact that caffeine blocks adenosine doesn't mean that caffeine doesn't also "work via" DA.
Anyone, like spriggy in the original post, who notices a consistent antidepressant response from caffeine should not be discouraged from inquiring about dopamine. The level of detail implied by these questions...
> What receptors does [caffeine] effect exactly, auto receptors, post synaptic? is it in an area that matters?
...perhaps can't be satisfied at present. But that doesn't make the caffeine-dopamine connection any more dubious than many accepted psychiatric drug mechanisms. Far from it. And what area of the brain doesn't "matter" for these issues? How would we know?
> The evidence you cite doesnt personally convince me of dopamine involvement in the rewarding and antidepressant effect of caffeeine
That may still be true. But the fact that virtually every scientific article on the human physiology of caffeine begins with some version of "The mechanisms remain elusive..." says to me that no one should simply tell depressed caffeine-responders seeking information that there is no such connection. To me, that seems heedless.
Thanks for dialoguing, lunny. I for sure learned something.
Posted by Phillipa on November 25, 2005, at 21:36:47
In reply to caffeine-dopamine » lunesta, posted by pseudoname on November 25, 2005, at 19:50:25
Okay I know there is caffeine and theophylline in chocolate. Can you compair a cup of coffee with chocolate? Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by pseudoname on November 25, 2005, at 22:10:01
In reply to Re: caffeine-dopamine » pseudoname, posted by Phillipa on November 25, 2005, at 21:36:47
> Can you compair a cup of coffee with chocolate?
Phillipa,
I'm not sure what you mean, but I probably can't: I haven't read the book! lol
Posted by Ryan2828 on November 26, 2005, at 2:01:15
In reply to Re: caffeine-dopamine » pseudoname, posted by Phillipa on November 25, 2005, at 21:36:47
instead of reading all this I just skip to the end like I always do, man I must be A.D.D.
Posted by Ryan2828 on November 26, 2005, at 2:01:55
In reply to Re: caffeine-dopamine » pseudoname, posted by Phillipa on November 25, 2005, at 21:36:47
The big question is after the coffee wears off, then what happens you feel pooped.
This is the end of the thread.
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