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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by SandyWeb on October 29, 2005, at 17:33:12
In reply to Re: Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety » lunesta, posted by SLS on October 29, 2005, at 1:43:50
Ummm....not to budd in here....but I've been on Neurontin 3200 mg daily for probably close 2 years now. (Wow! I didn't realize that until I just typed it out. And about one and a half years since I attempted. Sorry. I just blew my own mind right now! Lol!!)
Anyways...back to Neurontin. I've actually gone off it cold-turkey twice. Once when I went into the hospital (I was off it for maybe 2-3 months, until I figured out what meds had actually been beneficial for me), and once when I was SICK SICK SICK (I was off for almost 2 weeks with the flu). I didn't have any withdrawal either time....although I wouldn't have been able to tell the time I cold-turkeyed when I was SICK! Lol!
Because of this, I have always thought of Neurontin as a pretty benign med. It seems you can go up and down in dose...and even quit it...without any type of difficulties.
But I guess that is just my experience.
I'm sorry you had such a nasty time with it. I think we all have that one special drug that we think came straight from Satan! Lol. I would have to say that my worst one was Paxil!!!
Take care.
Sandy
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 30, 2005, at 9:43:45
In reply to Re: Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety, posted by lunesta on October 28, 2005, at 17:52:44
> the drug is poison.
Please don't exaggerate or overgeneralize.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Simcha on October 31, 2005, at 1:06:37
In reply to Re: Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety, posted by SandyWeb on October 29, 2005, at 17:33:12
Yes,
I have to agree that Neurontin has only helped me.
I'm on Celexa 40mg/day, WellbutrinXL 300mg/day, and Neurontin 600mg at night.
The Neurontin prevents Bruxism for me. I don't grind my teeth or bite my tongue at night anymore! Also, it seemed to add a bit of mood brightening in the background. It was very subtle.
All of us have one med or two or more that we cannot stand to take. For me I really don't ever want to go back on Effexor XR if I can help it even though it really worked for the depression. It made me numb from the waiste down and that was an untolerable side-effect for me.
So, there are good reports about the effects of Neurontin and there are scary reports too. The same can be said for just about any psychoactive medication on the market today. It all depends on what works for you.
If it makes you more depressed then tell the doc and get off of it and on something else if needed.
Simcha
Posted by lunesta on October 31, 2005, at 5:23:25
In reply to Re: Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety, posted by SandyWeb on October 29, 2005, at 17:33:12
you were off it both times you were sick, just like me, this is because neurontin lowers white blood cells, which fight infections. So when we get a big one, we end up in the hospital or somewhere major, where we might have to stop our immune supressing neurontin. this causes a huge rebound in white blood cells fighting all the infections that neurontin may have supressed. calcium overload, vomiting, constant nesea, panic, anxiety, hyperventilate, urination, hot cold chills, sweaty palms yet cold hands. sound anything like the illnesses you had concidentally when you had to stop neurontin then too they kept going. if you had taken higher doses of neurontin, the illness would most likely would have been supressed, but because the body builds tolerance, eventually, well..lets just say
neurontin withdrawl resembles severe illnesses like flu, pnemunoia, anxiety, psycosis etc.
I would bet this was the case.
Posted by lunesta on October 31, 2005, at 5:34:29
In reply to Re: Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety, posted by Simcha on October 31, 2005, at 1:06:37
"The Neurontin prevents Bruxism for me. I don't grind my teeth or bite my tongue at night anymore"
So interesting. I never had bruxism before i was given neurontin. Now I have it permenantly.... My teeth are ruined i have to wear a terrible mouth guard.
It is a risk benefit ratio. if you are older, and plan to stay on it forever like i said, it may be ok, but it can cause osteopenia and kidney stones, gout all these things related to calcium metabolism.
bruxism is related to a gaba-opioidergic-substance p interaction, all involved in the stress response system, hence they say bruxers have stress (which can be biological or mental of course). neurontin hits gaba, opioidergic and substance P, so it is quite a unique drug.
However, it depends on dosage (high is worse), low can be okay.
Do you ever plan to get off? When you do, let me know how it goes, babblemail me.
I would suggest your doctor check for white blood cells in your kidney, a common side effect on neurontin. Thats your proof of immunosupression, kidney damage etc.
Blah! All drugs are risk benefit. Its your choice. Neurontin was a miracle to me to btw. Then i realized, i couldnt get off it or would puke water , anything.
But you know its only approved for shingles pain and seizure add on, so you can always join the class action lawsuit against Pfizer for promoting it to docs off label, or maybe sue separate which many people do.
I wish you the best of luck.
Posted by slinky on October 31, 2005, at 9:54:54
In reply to Re: Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety, posted by Simcha on October 31, 2005, at 1:06:37
Neurontin is the only drug that has helped me.
It deals with irritability, racing thoughts ,premenstral stuff, anxiety and pain related depression symptoms.
Gets me out of bed and the only med keeping me almost alive.It doesn't cure depression -I have to live with it-but it doesn't increase depression either.
Posted by slinky on October 31, 2005, at 10:01:58
In reply to Re: Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety, posted by slinky on October 31, 2005, at 9:54:54
Oh and yes I had some time off it..titrated down till I stopped..the only problem was aches and pains that I had pre neurontin and itchy irritability and racing thoughts- also pre neurontin.
Posted by SLS on October 31, 2005, at 10:11:28
In reply to Re: Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety, posted by slinky on October 31, 2005, at 9:54:54
Hi.
> It doesn't cure depression -I have to live with it-but it doesn't increase depression either.
What makes you conclude that you have to live with depression?
- Scott
Posted by Simcha on October 31, 2005, at 11:41:06
In reply to Re: Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety » Simcha, posted by lunesta on October 31, 2005, at 5:34:29
Ya know, I just don't see the body of unbiased medical evidence to support all of the claims of the danger of this drug to most people. What I see are studies done by law firms who are litigating the case against Pfizer. I would hardly call these non-biased medical studies.
In my own personal experience I have had no adverse side effects while on Neurontin. I have not noticed any increase in infections or any of the other things you seem to have experienced. And I do believe you personally had problems with taking Neurontin. Obviously, it's contraindicated for you.
At the same time I know many others who take Neurontin and have been taking Neurontin for years. They are all fine and report no major side effects. I asked my psychiatrist about doing blood work due to the amount of medication I'm on. I'm also an asthmatic who has to take maintenance meds for that too.
He evaluated all of my medications (recently, within the past two months) and told me that there was no concern about any of the drugs I'm on. They don't interact. They don't cause toxicity. They don't damage any organs in their elimination according to him. Also my general practitioner has agreed with his opinion.
So, I have actually looked for studies to back up anything that might scare me off of Neurontin or any of the other drugs I need to take. I have yet to come across anything that I would consider unbiased medical evidence of great danger to the majority of people who might take Neurontin.
As with any drug, your personal mileage may vary. Not all drugs work for all people. One drug that is a miracle for one person is death to another. (Think allergies, and body chemistry.)
My current daily meds:
40mg Celexa
300mg Wellbutrin XL
600mg Neurontin at night
50/500 Advair Diskus (one puff in the am and one in the pm)
10mg Singulair at night
10mg Claritin
240mg (24 hours worth) of Sudafed
The last two can be taken now as generic Loratadine-D 24 hour (two less pills!)I'm only 35 and I remember watching my Grandmother take all of her pills. I take as many or more than she did at 65. I can't even imagine what it would be like to have to take more.
But alas, I need to breathe and I need to be euthymic.
If I were to believe all of the hysteria about every drug I take I would be in the ER unable to breathe and on suicide watch frequently because I would take myself off of everything. Life is not worth living that way for me. So, I take my medications.
Simcha
Posted by slinky on October 31, 2005, at 11:43:41
In reply to Re: Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety » slinky, posted by SLS on October 31, 2005, at 10:11:28
Hi SLSStruggling with my mood since a child, I'm learning to give into it and accept it .
Being bipolar the meds I've tried never seem to reach a middle ground.
I'm feeling a bit brighter today, have some energy...that's why I'm posting .
Posted by lunesta on October 31, 2005, at 12:07:45
In reply to Re: Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety » lunesta, posted by Simcha on October 31, 2005, at 11:41:06
600mg Neurontin at night is a very low dose. I said low doses can be okay. I was takin 2400mg daily.
Posted by Simcha on October 31, 2005, at 19:33:14
In reply to Re: Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety » Simcha, posted by lunesta on October 31, 2005, at 12:07:45
Yes, and I know people on 4+ grams of the stuff per day who did not experience anything like what you did.
We are all different when it comes to side effects and efficacy, unfortunately.
My psychiatrist informed me well about high doses of Gabapentin a few months ago and told me that the latest unbiased medical studies show that most people can take grams of it and be just fine.
Gabapentin did not agree with you at all. I'm sorry you suffered this.
For every drug there is a minority who experience the terrible side effects of a drug. This is true for every drug anyone has ever made, including aspirin.
So, when faced with medical "evidence" presented by lawyers who are litigating a case against a drug company, I'm very wary of the results due to the automatic bias from the very start of the study. When faced with unbiased medical studies done for research purposes, not funded by a drug company, I'm much more comfortable. Also I have much more confidence in my doctors who know more than I do, even though I'm a well educated consumer, than I do what a law firm would tell me about a medicine.
If attorneys were meant to practice medicine then they would hold PhD.s in medicine and have the letters M.D. or O.D. or something like it after their names. Instead they have Doctorates in Law and they have the letters, J.D. after their names. I would not seek legal advice from a doctor any more than I would seek medical advice from a lawyer.
So, again, I believe you about your issues with Gabapentin. I believe everyone when they say they have any side effect to whatever med they take. In every study there is always a minority of people who have some VERY adverse reactions to all drugs that have been made.
That is what makes medicine such a complicated science. There is more about the human body that we don't know than what we actually know. And multiply that lack of knowledge by 100 when you speak about the brain.
Best Wishes,
Simcha
Posted by lunesta on November 1, 2005, at 1:06:56
In reply to Re: Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety » lunesta, posted by Simcha on October 31, 2005, at 19:33:14
Why are you defending neurontin so hard, and saying laywers are bad? I have no idea what your issue is, but you may want to inform yourself more about neurontin's current FDA issues, government-probed & civil lawsuit for false claims to docs for every disease left and right and the allarming high both abuse and suicide rate. Its successor, Lyrica is controlled substance and was heavy probed by the FDA (holdsups etc) and denied one of its main hopes for Pfizer - generalized anxiety disorder even though its effectiveness was at least minimally equivelent to benzos & superior and much better than SSRI's. Makes one wonder. I was giving my opinion on neurontin being poison not making an issue of forcing things down peoples throats so it strikes me odd you defend it so heavily.
Posted by Nickengland on November 1, 2005, at 5:20:51
In reply to Re: Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety » Simcha, posted by lunesta on November 1, 2005, at 1:06:56
Hi lunesta
People might feel they want to defend a drug which they are taking if it is described as a poison, to which it is okay to take, if they are taking it forever...
As I said over on my post to you on Administration, one mans poison, can well be another mans potential life saver when it comes to psychiatric drugs.
Even everyday sugar can be like this in everyday life. Although when discussing 'poison' i'm not entirely sure Gabapentin fits the accurate desciption of the word, if it does, then that would mean all other drugs be them psychiatric, anti epileptic, lithium, etc, are for more harmful 'poisons' when compared to Gabapentin, when confronted with some various parts of medical evidence about the specific drug.
>being poison not making an issue of forcing things down peoples throats so it strikes me odd you defend it so heavily.
>get off it. the drug is poison. trust me on this i know a lot about it. it screws with a lot of systems especially substance P. Please get off the drug ASAP and stay away from lyrica too.
>Unless you plan to be on them forever.
How about - I had to get off it. I found the drug to be like a poison. I know alot about it from my experience. It alters many functions throughout the body. (as do all drugs) You might want to consider withdrawing from the drug under your doctors supervision. Also Lyrica is a similar drug, so it may be best to stay clear of that too as to avoid the same problem.
Unless you reacting differently of course, your milage may vary and it could be something else, but bear this in mind.
Kind regards
Nick
Ps how could you stay on it forever, if like you said over on Adminstration it is considered being taken off the market? (I replied to your post over there)
Posted by Nickengland on November 1, 2005, at 6:25:17
In reply to Re: please be civil : neurontin, plz read., posted by lunesta on October 31, 2005, at 4:45:40
Hi lunesta
Sorry to hear about your bad experiences with Neurontin (Gabapentin) It is one hell of a pain in the *ss to say the least when you take a drug to make you feel better, gain some relief and then the oppisite happens and the drug actually makes you worse.
I've had this myself, funnily enough (I have bipolar) and the actual 'approved' drugs (well as far as I know Lamictal isn't approved for bipolar depression in the UK, but it is in the US from what I understand) anyway when I took Lamictal the drug to me was as close to i've felt to being poisened, I was quite literally shaking, sweating, and at the same time was extreamly anxious and somewhat suicidal, or at least because of the effects of the drug I was getting those thoughts (but strangely there was a weird lift in my mood, but not a healthy one) - I was taking that drug in the depressed phase, and for me it made me worse so I stopped it ~ however I've read all over the internet and on here that the drug is excellent for treating depression people with or without bipolar, so like many, many of these drugs, the benzo's for example, quite literally a life saver for one person, and a potentially life threatening for another...
>but is finally serious now that so many people have had suicides or sudden death or attempted suicides and many other adverse serious problems.
This reminds me of a drug which has recieved lots of press over here about increased suicides / sucidal indealation and behaviour, the antidepressant Seroxat/Paxil - paroxetine. In a similar sense I think now that carries some kind of black box warning about increased suicidal behaviour, which is quite a contridiction in a sense as in one way when treating severe depression thats what it is attempting to prevent - not increase! Perhaps Neurontin/Gabapentin will in the future carry the same warning..
>gabapentin is one of the current drugs being considered to be taken off the market completely
Would you be able to offer any links to information about that?
>neurontin is in the top 5 of suicide rates/attempts of all FDA approved drugs.
Do you know what is in the top four?
With Paxil, according to this site the suicide rates were -
Accordingly, the results show that between 1993-2002, there were 6,000 and 19,000 persons in the US who were victims of Paxil-induced suicide
http://www.ahrp.org/infomail/04/06/07.php
With Neurontin, according to the same site, the suicide rates were -
The FDA adverse drug event database, MedWatch, has received 258 documented fatal suicide reports involving patients prescribed Neurontin, for mostly unapproved, off-label uses
But ~
MedWatch reports represent only 1% to 10% of the actual adverse drug effects. Thus, 258 completed suicides represent between 2,580 suicides and 25,800 suicides attributed to Neurontin.
http://www.ahrp.org/infomail/05/04/06.php
The drugs from what I can see and the rates on the site show date starting from around 92 - 93' ? Although I could be wrong..
Its weird, but when reading about benzodiazepines when they were first introduced everyone seemed to think that were the cure all for everything, then slowly but surely the stories of addiction and so on started to appear and then people thought diferently. The cycle sometimes starts to continue that now and again they are safe again - and then you here they're very dangerous.I don't know, I take Gabapentin and for me its probably the best psychiatric drug i've ever taken, Lamictal was one of the worst. When reading on babble I've sometimes seen that for some people Gabapentin is the worst thing for them, but yet Lamictal was the best. One mans poisen within psychiatric medication could well be another mans potential life saver? (or womans ;-)
It is sad about all the marketing to boost profits though, I read they had to pay $430 million when pleading guilty for.
Kind regards
Nick
Posted by Phillipa on November 1, 2005, at 6:25:18
In reply to Re: please be civil : neurontin, plz read. » lunesta, posted by Nickengland on October 31, 2005, at 11:17:25
Nick why in the world would my pdoc suffest neurotin for anxiety? Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Nickengland on November 1, 2005, at 6:25:18
In reply to Re: please be civil : neurontin, plz read. » Nickengland, posted by Phillipa on October 31, 2005, at 20:38:45
Hi Phillipa,
Although I have bipolar disorder, the reason I take it is mainly for anxiety. I've found it only very slightly benefitial for mood stabiliation, but the main purposes and benefits I receive are for anxiety, and then following that it gives me a nice warm anti depressant feeling too that i've never received from any other anticonvulsant drug - basically makes me feel comfortable in my own skin for want of a better word. Good for sleep too and kind of good for reducing pain. (I take it along side another drug for my main mood stabilisation Topamax)
Makes sense that your doctor would want to precribe the drug to see if it would relieve anxiety from my experience with taking it.
These studies confirm its role in anxiety too..
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=pubmed
Kind regards
Nick
Posted by Nickengland on November 1, 2005, at 9:09:08
In reply to Re: please be civil : neurontin, plz read. » Phillipa, posted by Nickengland on November 1, 2005, at 4:47:48
...strange with the redirect... slightly back to front in order of dates, top to bottom lol
Its good though, the're where they should be..
:-)
Kind regards
Nick
Posted by SLS on November 1, 2005, at 9:21:57
In reply to My posting order may seem..., posted by Nickengland on November 1, 2005, at 9:09:08
> ...strange with the redirect... slightly back to front in order of dates, top to bottom lol
>
> Its good though, the're where they should be..
>
> :-)
>
> Kind regards
>
> NickI always get things *ss backwards, so it all made sense to me!
:-)
- Scott
Posted by Nickengland on November 1, 2005, at 10:51:01
In reply to Re: My posting order may seem... » Nickengland, posted by SLS on November 1, 2005, at 9:21:57
Hi Scott
>I always get things *ss backwards, so it all made sense to me!
:-)
I know what you mean... I'm surprised I can still actually walk forwards! lol
:-)
Kind regards
Nick
Posted by Nickengland on November 1, 2005, at 10:59:33
In reply to Re: please be civil : neurontin, plz read. » Phillipa, posted by Nickengland on November 1, 2005, at 4:47:48
Hi Phillipa,
That link that I provided was slight error....it should have been this..
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=pubmed
Or this should work...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=Display&DB=pubmed
If not (those searches are with "Gabapentin Anxiety" typed in the search box) - with 102 results, not all relevant, but some are with anxiety related to bipolar disorder, or Generalised Anxiety Disorder and Social Anxiety Diorder etc..
Hopefully those search results should come up, but if not type *Gabapentin Anxiety* - change the results to view 200, scroll down and theres a fair few studies about anxiety...
Kind regards
Nick
Posted by Nickengland on November 1, 2005, at 11:19:42
In reply to Re: please be civil : neurontin, plz read.Phillipa, posted by Nickengland on November 1, 2005, at 10:59:33
Sorry, just won't come up with the right window for some reason....but these of some of the results should be relevant to anxiety..
Okay ~ I got bit excessive posting those but just got carried away reading some of the studies, I got to about 50, reading from the bottom upwards lol
Hope they help..
Kind regards
Nick
Posted by Simcha on November 1, 2005, at 11:19:44
In reply to Re: Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety » Simcha, posted by lunesta on November 1, 2005, at 1:06:56
Lunesta,
What I'm actually saying is that I'm a well-informed Neurontin user. I have read the studies.
I have found no credible evidence that suggests that Neurontin causes all of the horrible things you say and the lawyers are currently saying. I see nowhere where there has been any research that shows that suicidality on Neurontin is higher than on any other psychoactive drug.
All drugs have side effects. Let me repeat that. All drugs have side effects.
For some people the side effects from all FDA approved drugs are potentially deadly. Let me repeat that. For some people the side effects from all FDA approved drugs are potentially deadly.
I also see no evidence that would tell me that anyone is advocating taking Neurontin off of the market. I would like to see any citations that you might give on this claim. Please note that law suit "evidence" really doesn't count because those studies do tend to be biased and one-sided.
And I'm just saying what others here have said. One person's poison is another person's cure.
Sadly, that is the current state of affairs in medicine today. No drug is really "safe."
I just find it off-puting for newbies and people who are trying to find out information who need medication about medication to come here to read very serious warnings about said drugs when there is no body of medical evidence to suggest that "all" people need to "beware."
Like I said before. I'm so sorry you experienced the bad side effects while on Neurontin. Apparently you are one of the unfortunate people who are included in the small percentage where they list "extremely adverse side effects" for Neurontin/Gabapentin. I don't like anyone to have to suffer any pain. So I feel for you.
At the same time, I find it curious that you came out so strongly and generally with your opinions about Neurontin/Gabapentin when it was your own personal experience.
So, if you can give referrences to good non-biased medical studies that tell everyone that Neurontin/Gabapentin is dangerous to the general population then I can see your point. Otherwise, your story is very sad, aweful, and personal. And I'm so sorrythat you went through that mess.
And your experience does not apply to everyone.
Simcha
Posted by SLS on November 3, 2005, at 10:18:33
In reply to Re: Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety » lunesta, posted by Simcha on November 1, 2005, at 11:19:44
Simcha,
I just wanted to say "Hi".
It's nice to see you posting again.
How have you been?
Regarding Neurontin, I think it was overprescribed there for awhile. It did not make for a good mood-stabilizer for bipolar disorder in the same way that lithium and Depakote do. Unfortunately, I think Neurontin is probably underutilized now. The pendulum swung too far in both directions. I am hoping that a more balanced approach to its use evolves so that people can benefit from what the drug really does do. I believe that it has utility in treating several anxiety disorders as well as depression. Of course, it has demonstrated itself to be an excellent drug for a variety of pain disorders.
- Scott
Posted by GreenP on May 23, 2010, at 20:34:31
In reply to Gabapentin/Neurontin - depression and anxiety, posted by jms600 on October 27, 2005, at 16:15:03
The first night I was prescribed Neuronin I took it at 4for bed. I woke up and fell out of bed. I was so messed up I could hardly walk.
And yes, I become so depressed. Not so much anxious, but very depressed. I'm still waiting for the effects to wear off :( so I feel your pain man,
Good luck@
This is the end of the thread.
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