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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by iforgotmypassword on September 16, 2005, at 20:59:08
do any exist?
Posted by Declan on September 16, 2005, at 21:12:17
In reply to pro-cholinergic antidepressants or stims?, posted by iforgotmypassword on September 16, 2005, at 20:59:08
Those nootropic things like piracetam are procholinergic/muscarinic, but as you probably know don't improve mood, and are said to worsen it.
Declan
Posted by linkadge on September 16, 2005, at 21:16:26
In reply to pro-cholinergic antidepressants or stims?, posted by iforgotmypassword on September 16, 2005, at 20:59:08
Stimulants are all generally all procholinergic (I believe). Which is why they tend to cause depression.
Enhancing serotonergic and/or noradrenergic function confers indirect anticholinergic effects.
So even the new AD's are functionally anticholinergic. Esp the ones that surpress REM sleep.Remeron is supposed to be functional in Nootropic tests.
I think SJW has some acetylcholinsterase inhibiting properites, and is also a functional nootropic in some clinical paradigms.
I don't really know.
For cognition SJW was probably the best. All the SSRI's made my thinking fuzzy.
Linkadge
Posted by iforgotmypassword on September 16, 2005, at 21:23:34
In reply to Re: pro-cholinergic antidepressants or stims?, posted by linkadge on September 16, 2005, at 21:16:26
i don't understand remeron. i've read on some sites that it's antimuscarinic, and blocking the H1 is supposed to be indirectly anticholinergic (according to ADHD studies)... but then theres that memory study...
Posted by linkadge on September 17, 2005, at 10:51:22
In reply to Re: pro-cholinergic antidepressants or stims?, posted by iforgotmypassword on September 16, 2005, at 21:23:34
I see what you're saying.
In terms of subjective performance, I wonder what people say have been the best meds.
SSRI's are a mixed bag for me. They seem to help memory for facts, but they don't really seem to help my cognition.
Linkadge
Posted by iforgotmypassword on September 17, 2005, at 11:16:10
In reply to Re: pro-cholinergic antidepressants or stims?, posted by linkadge on September 17, 2005, at 10:51:22
personally i really think the effexor/remeron combo is what really works for a lot of people. maybe not purely cognitively but restores their thinking by eliminating depressive symptoms. you hear of people, just at some point say how they can truely enjoy their life again and that's it. no more introspective dwelling, no more thinking about meds, no more pseudohypochondria, you just never hear them again. because theyve gotten up and gone on with an actual life.
Posted by linkadge on September 17, 2005, at 11:28:19
In reply to Re: pro-cholinergic antidepressants or stims?, posted by iforgotmypassword on September 17, 2005, at 11:16:10
I'd like to meet people like this. I don't think AD's cure anything. I think they're a bandaid.
Basically I think they just "put off", the depression, untill the time which you decide to discontinue them.
Sorry for bitterness.
Linkadge
Posted by theo on September 17, 2005, at 23:02:43
In reply to Re: pro-cholinergic antidepressants or stims?, posted by linkadge on September 17, 2005, at 11:28:19
> I'd like to meet people like this. I don't think AD's cure anything. I think they're a bandaid.
>
> Basically I think they just "put off", the depression, untill the time which you decide to discontinue them.
>
> Sorry for bitterness.
>
> Linkadge
>You are correct. I went off meds for several months and worked through some true emotions. Now that I have, I feel a bit better about things and not so guilty about going back on meds. It had been so long that I had been off meds, I didn't know who I was anymore. SSRI's are really the only ones that seem to stunt my emotional growth. Stims and anticonvulsants seem to help in other ways that don't seem to stunt emotionally.
Posted by ed_uk on September 18, 2005, at 11:26:28
In reply to Re: pro-cholinergic antidepressants or stims?, posted by linkadge on September 17, 2005, at 11:28:19
>Pro-cholinergic antidepressants?
Well... there's minaprine (Cantor, Isopulsan). Minaprine was formerly available in several European countries. As far as I know it's been discontinued.
~ed
Posted by ed_uk on September 18, 2005, at 12:08:07
In reply to Re: pro-cholinergic antidepressants or stims? » linkadge, posted by theo on September 17, 2005, at 23:02:43
Drug:
Minaprine (Isopulsan)
Drug class:
Stimulant, antidepressant, cholinergic
Dose:
Oral. Adults: Initially 75-100 mg/12 h. The dose can be increased, based on clinical response, to a maximum of 150mg/12 h ie. 300 mg per day.
The second daily dose should be administered no later than 5.00pm, in order to reduce the risk of insomnia.
Indications:
Authorised in Spain for the symptomatic treatment of fatigue.
Adverse effects:
The adverse effects of minaprine are, in general, infrequent and of moderate importance. In most cases, the adverse effects are an extension of the expected phamacological effects of the drug. The adverse reactions most characteristic of minaprine are: insomnia, agitation, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea and migraine.
Availability:
Discontinued
~Ed
Posted by Tom Twilight on September 19, 2005, at 5:48:43
In reply to Re: pro-cholinergic antidepressants or stims? » linkadge, posted by ed_uk on September 18, 2005, at 11:26:28
> >Pro-cholinergic antidepressants?
>
> Well... there's minaprine (Cantor, Isopulsan). Minaprine was formerly available in several European countries. As far as I know it's been discontinued.
>
Hey EdThanks for posts, do you have any idea why Minaprine was discontinued?
Its really annoying, I've been interested in it for ages, but haven't been able to get hold of it.
There are studies showing it to be effective for depression.
Posted by ed_uk on September 19, 2005, at 14:46:32
In reply to Why was Minaprine discontinued? Annoying!, posted by Tom Twilight on September 19, 2005, at 5:48:43
Hi Tom,
I'm sorry I don't know. AFAIK, it's efficacy was doubtful, that might have something to do with it.
~ed
Posted by zeugma on September 19, 2005, at 15:43:23
In reply to Re: Why was Minaprine discontinued? Annoying! » Tom Twilight, posted by ed_uk on September 19, 2005, at 14:46:32
all the studies I've seen of minaprine that claimed 'equivalent' efficacy to standard AD's always used very low dosages of comparators, such as 50 mg amitriptyline, which are clearly subtherapeutic. I doubt a well-conducted study has been done that really backs up minaprine's antidepressant credentials.
-z
Posted by Iansf on September 19, 2005, at 17:40:27
In reply to Re: Why was Minaprine discontinued? Annoying!, posted by zeugma on September 19, 2005, at 15:43:23
> all the studies I've seen of minaprine that claimed 'equivalent' efficacy to standard AD's always used very low dosages of comparators, such as 50 mg amitriptyline, which are clearly subtherapeutic. I doubt a well-conducted study has been done that really backs up minaprine's antidepressant credentials.
>
> -z
I tried minaprine and found it totally ineffective. It didn't have annoying side effects, but it also didn't have helpful direct effects. I might as well have been taking a placebo.
Posted by Chairman_MAO on September 19, 2005, at 20:34:02
In reply to Re: pro-cholinergic antidepressants or stims?, posted by linkadge on September 16, 2005, at 21:16:26
Stimulants are not procholinergic at all. They block the reuptake of and/or stimulate the release of SE and/or DA and/or NE with varying potencies.
Posted by Tom Twilight on September 20, 2005, at 12:17:07
In reply to Re: Why was Minaprine discontinued? Annoying!, posted by zeugma on September 19, 2005, at 15:43:23
> all the studies I've seen of minaprine that claimed 'equivalent' efficacy to standard AD's always used very low dosages of comparators, such as 50 mg amitriptyline, which are clearly subtherapeutic.
Sorry guys
I should have looked at the dose of Amitriptyline used before asserting that Minaprine was effective.
It looks like another drug thats great on paper but not reality (sigh)
Posted by Declan on September 20, 2005, at 15:02:29
In reply to Re: Why was Minaprine discontinued? Annoying!, posted by Iansf on September 19, 2005, at 17:40:27
Are you the only person here who's ever taken it? You're the only one I've heard of. Still, I would love to try it, and a drug repressed by the FDA can't be all bad.
Declan
Posted by Iansf on September 20, 2005, at 18:30:57
In reply to Re: Why was Minaprine discontinued? Annoying! » Iansf, posted by Declan on September 20, 2005, at 15:02:29
> Are you the only person here who's ever taken it? You're the only one I've heard of. Still, I would love to try it, and a drug repressed by the FDA can't be all bad.
> DeclanIn what way was it repressed by the FDA? I was under the impression its manufacturer never submitted it for US review, but I could certainly be mistaken about that.
BTW, I don't know if I'm the only one on the board who's taken it or not. But I have to acknowledge I didn't get it prescribed. At one time, you could buy it from at least one overseas source without a prescription. This was back in the early 90s, before I had access to the Internet, so I'm not sure how I found out. I've never looked for it since.
Posted by Declan on September 20, 2005, at 19:10:49
In reply to Re: Why was Minaprine discontinued? Annoying!, posted by Iansf on September 20, 2005, at 18:30:57
How was it repressed by the FDA? No idea. Some empire influence thing, maybe it's just a habit of mine. I did read that something like that had happened. Or am I thinking of amineptine?
Let's not mention the war on drugs.
Declan
Posted by iforgotmypassword on September 21, 2005, at 11:44:11
In reply to Re: pro-cholinergic antidepressants or stims? » linkadge, posted by Chairman_MAO on September 19, 2005, at 20:34:02
This is the end of the thread.
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