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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 11 to 35 of 35. Go back in thread:
Posted by Empathy on August 20, 2005, at 13:19:15
In reply to Re: Hey folks, it's not just the MEDS, posted by SLS on August 20, 2005, at 12:57:26
I wish everybody suffering could have good therapy... sadly it just isn't possible for everyone.
I had good therapy, but it wasn't with the first, second or third doctor that I tried - there are a lot of unhelpful therapists out there that are a waste of money. I finally found someone, but if I didn't have excellent insurance, I would have never been able to afford the $120 an hour it costs to talk with him.
A lot of people have limited assets and their first priority is medication. Hopefully, they can find some kind folks to listen to them and help them discuss their feelings and maybe some helpful books to read to substitute a bit for actual therapy.
Posted by lynn970 on August 20, 2005, at 13:23:21
In reply to Re: Hey folks, it's not just the MEDS, posted by SLS on August 20, 2005, at 12:57:26
I have had some traumatic experiences as a child and yet the trauma was not as bad as what many people have.
My 5 year old, on the other hand has a wonderful life. She does show symptoms of depression.
I have family members on antidepressants also. The trauma I experienced as a child may have just intensified my predisposition to depression/anxiety/OCD
THANKS FOR YOUR INSIGHT.
Posted by lynn970 on August 20, 2005, at 13:26:58
In reply to SLS that was very informative., posted by lynn970 on August 20, 2005, at 13:23:21
I am afraid that I shouldn't have said that my 5 year shows symptoms of depression. I don't know if she does. Her feelings get hurt so easy. I pray that she does not inherit a chemical imbalance from me.
Posted by ed_uk on August 20, 2005, at 13:55:48
In reply to Hey folks, it's not just the MEDS, posted by DoYouKnowHim? on August 20, 2005, at 3:28:39
I was concerned that you might be feeling attacked. I do hope you're not :-)
Kind regards
~Ed
Posted by Empathy on August 20, 2005, at 14:25:59
In reply to Re: Hey folks, it's not just the MEDS » DoYouKnowHim?, posted by ed_uk on August 20, 2005, at 13:55:48
I hope they don't feel attacked either - all thoughts are valuable and this particular poster seems to try to present a sense of BALANCE and I think that is important.
Posted by Declan on August 20, 2005, at 14:49:39
In reply to Re: Hey folks, it's not just the MEDS, posted by Empathy on August 20, 2005, at 14:25:59
When my mother was depressed she was in a terrible state, 9 months in a psychhospital, drugs, ECT maybe 10 times, agitated depression.
The thing was that she saw her problems (for want of better word!) in an exclusively moral light. And everyone dealing with her went to great efforts to treat the depression as an illness. So there was this disjunction.
I really felt she needed someone to talk to seriously about what she should and should not feel guilty for. She couldn't have done therapy though. And her doctors were not equipped to talk about moral failings. (They *had* moral failings, all too clear to me....like coming late to see her and having her called out from a meal for an appointment with no explanation or apology).
This experience made me think that the question of fault and blame is not easy to resolve. Anyway what I tried to do was talk about the moral side of things with her, which was easy because it was what she brought up. I think on Good Friday she said to me that whatever wickedness she had done in her life she had been punished for and that we had all suffered enough. All very intense.This is just a fragmentary reflection on the mind/brain, moral/chemical imbalance thing that crops up from time to time.
Declan
Posted by linkadge on August 20, 2005, at 15:25:33
In reply to Re: Hey folks, it's not just the MEDS, posted by SLS on August 20, 2005, at 8:32:05
Posted by linkadge on August 20, 2005, at 15:26:37
In reply to Re: Hey folks, it's not just the MEDS, posted by willyee on August 20, 2005, at 11:08:31
Posted by willyee on August 20, 2005, at 19:23:29
In reply to Re: Hey folks, it's not just the MEDS » DoYouKnowHim?, posted by ed_uk on August 20, 2005, at 13:55:48
I agree,i tried to make sure no one took my post personaly,it was a general posting directed at no one in particular,also it was MY view.
I understand the complexity of the disease,and i am happy for anyone who manages to get relieaf period,the way in which each person finds relieaf is no where as important as getting better,and i personaly wish i could make us all "BETTER" with the snap of a finger!
Posted by Glydin on August 21, 2005, at 1:45:43
In reply to Hey folks, it's not just the MEDS, posted by DoYouKnowHim? on August 20, 2005, at 3:28:39
I am respectful of your right to your opinion. I do disagree that your opinions were true for me. Perhaps it would have been better if you had made your statements as opinions in lieu of blanket statements of generalizations applicable to all?
I come from a very convential medical model background and I believed the combo of meds and therapy was essential... until... I tried the combo for several years. I won't go into the specifics, but I reached a different opinion after I had my experiences. But, I would not begin to tell anyone else what was REQUIRED for them - I think it's a very individual decision.
Posted by SLS on August 21, 2005, at 7:40:29
In reply to Hey folks, it's not just the MEDS, posted by DoYouKnowHim? on August 20, 2005, at 3:28:39
Hi.
I'm sorry that my reaction to your post seemed so harsh. As you can see, it becomes an emotionally charged issue whenever the biology versus psychology of depression becomes a focal point. It is hard to make everyone happy when one attempts to make sweeping generalizations, regardless of how well-intentioned.
It goes without question that your post was well intentioned. As far as projecting the experiences of the self onto others, I am often guilty of the same thing. If I feel that I have found an answer for myself, I almost assume that it will be the answer for others as well. Unfortunately, depression is a single word describing a heterogenous population of suffers, and there is not yet clear specificity at delineating depressive subtypes such that treatments can be determined for each one. Even when two cases of depression look exactly the same, they may respond to surprisingly different treatments.
I like the concept of "depressive pressure". Depressive pressure can be the presence of a chronic psychosocial stress for which psychotherapy and/or environmental change are the best alternatives to reduce. Depressive pressure can take a toll on the brain such that it causes it to malfunction in biologically succeptible individuals. For some people whom respond adequately to antidepressants, future relapses despite continued treatment (known as medication break-through) becomes likely if the depressive pressure created by psychosocial stress remains unmitigated. Psychotherapy here would go a long way to help prevent this from happening, although it is no guarantee. However, the removal of the depressive pressure through psychotherapy is often a well-designed strategy. Unfortunately, the more depressive episodes one experiences, the deeper the biological illness digs into the brain. Subsequent recurrences often occur even in the absence of psychosocial stress. For these people, medical treatment might be both necessary and sufficient.
Another good use of psychotherapy is to clean up the mess left in the wake of an extended depressive episode. Biological depression warps thoughts and feelings. It changes the way people think and behave. It can lead to erroneous perceptions and conclusions about the self and the outside world that psychotherapy can often address.
Another good use of psychotherapy is to help prevent too much of a mess from developing in the first place and allowing the depressed individual to function as well as the biological illness permits. However, when appropriate, it is most helpful that the psychotherapist acknowledge and actually *believe* that the depression is biological. To proceed otherwise can sabotage the efforts of the sufferer to work with the depression as the therapist may convey upon them unreasonable expectations and neglect insights targeted at the reality of the illness. When used properly, psychotherapy can help the sufferer of a biological depression better understand the dynamics of the illness, accept their temporary limitations, reduce anxiety and stress, and prevent suicide.
The sincerity of your concern for the suffering of others and your enthusiasm to share your ideas as to how to reduce it comes through very powerfully in your post. I'm sorry if this has been neglected in the replies you have received.
I wish you continued success following the path of healing you have chosen. It would help a great many people were you to continue to share your experiences in the future. I hope you have not been discouraged from doing so.
Be well.
- Scott
Posted by Emme on August 21, 2005, at 8:40:35
In reply to Hey folks, it's not just the MEDS, posted by DoYouKnowHim? on August 20, 2005, at 3:28:39
- Therapy is good for many. Maybe even most. I wouldn't make a blanket statement that everyone needs it.- I have benefitted from CBT and could continue to benefit. I won't negate the value of counseling. I have also been surprised at how much negative, distorted thinking has floated away when the meds work well. My thinking needs less "adjustment". I believe such a change in thinking is every bit real and valid as improvement from talk therapy.
- As someone pointed out, some don't need calming. They need perking up.
- Possible uses of therapy (mostly already stated, but I'll go ahead and register my opinion).
1) Dealing with your baggage. Heck, half the population could probably use that, depressed or not.
2) Managing psychosocial stressors in your everyday life. Also, managing the basics of living when you are in a bad way. That might not require continued therapy if you feel you've gotten the hang of good coping skills.
3) I agree with everyone else about coping with the mess and stress created by your disorder.
4) Keeping tabs on you. Having someone with a practiced eye keep track of your ups and downs, alert your pdoc if you're heading downhill, and provide input that might be helpful for diagnosis. I have found this to be very important.- I believe that meds without therapy is realistic for some. It may be most realistic after becoming stabilized on appropriate meds (or being able to discontinue meds) and/or after having had some support in therapy for any of the above reasons.
Posted by Empathy on August 21, 2005, at 13:38:07
In reply to Re: Hey folks, it's not just the MEDS » DoYouKnowHim?, posted by SLS on August 21, 2005, at 7:40:29
Wow... that was an excellent post. Thanks.
Posted by Declan on August 21, 2005, at 13:45:12
In reply to Re: Hey folks, it's not just the MEDS » DoYouKnowHim?, posted by SLS on August 21, 2005, at 7:40:29
Hey Scott, thankyou.
That was a great post in many ways.
Declan
Posted by KaraS on August 21, 2005, at 16:13:39
In reply to Re: Hey folks, it's not just the MEDS » DoYouKnowHim?, posted by Emme on August 21, 2005, at 8:40:35
>
> - Therapy is good for many. Maybe even most. I wouldn't make a blanket statement that everyone needs it.
>
> - I have benefitted from CBT and could continue to benefit. I won't negate the value of counseling. I have also been surprised at how much negative, distorted thinking has floated away when the meds work well. My thinking needs less "adjustment". I believe such a change in thinking is every bit real and valid as improvement from talk therapy.
>
> - As someone pointed out, some don't need calming. They need perking up.
>
> - Possible uses of therapy (mostly already stated, but I'll go ahead and register my opinion).
> 1) Dealing with your baggage. Heck, half the population could probably use that, depressed or not.
> 2) Managing psychosocial stressors in your everyday life. Also, managing the basics of living when you are in a bad way. That might not require continued therapy if you feel you've gotten the hang of good coping skills.
> 3) I agree with everyone else about coping with the mess and stress created by your disorder.
> 4) Keeping tabs on you. Having someone with a practiced eye keep track of your ups and downs, alert your pdoc if you're heading downhill, and provide input that might be helpful for diagnosis. I have found this to be very important.
>
> - I believe that meds without therapy is realistic for some. It may be most realistic after becoming stabilized on appropriate meds (or being able to discontinue meds) and/or after having had some support in therapy for any of the above reasons.
>
Yours was a really good post too. Succinct yet dead on.k
Posted by john berk on August 21, 2005, at 16:43:57
In reply to Too Bad All This Wasn't Known Years Ago, posted by Phillipa on August 20, 2005, at 21:13:02
Hi phillipa!! i am sorry you suffered last night, i hope today is brighter for you, i read your thread on the writing board, it was powerful, and you are right, no one should be made to feel that way!! please be well, your friend...john
Posted by Jedi on August 22, 2005, at 2:54:33
In reply to Re: Hey folks, it's not just the MEDS, posted by SLS on August 20, 2005, at 8:32:05
Hi Guys,
I have suffered through at least three major depressions and a level of dysthymia my entire adult life. After trials with many different combinations of medications, my first major depression ended like a flash of light after four weeks on 75mg of Nardil. I am sure not saying it is like this for everybody, but my depression is a biological disease of the brain. In a period of one or two days my thinking took a 180 degree turn. All of my problems that were insurmountable suddenly became "No Problem". I believe that no amount of therapy could have done this for me. Everyone is different. I know people that their childhood and developement years were full of abuse and trama. These environmental issues had a huge effect on their level of functioning. However, before my first major depression hit at about age 40, I was a highly functioning adult. I built my own computer networking business and owned at least fifty rental properties. The depression took that wealth away. I believe that if the doctors would of quit taking me off Nardil, the only med that worked, I could have enjoyed a much quicker recovery. Now with at least three major depressions, I will be on meds the rest of my life. I don't like the idea of that, but the alternative is worse.
Jedi
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 22, 2005, at 22:34:20
In reply to Re: SLS that was very informative., posted by lynn970 on August 20, 2005, at 13:26:58
> I am afraid that I shouldn't have said that my 5 year shows symptoms of depression...
Sorry to interrupt, but I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding 5 year olds to Psycho-Babble Parents. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/child/20050817/msgs/545423.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by adamCanada on August 23, 2005, at 12:21:13
In reply to Hey folks, it's not just the MEDS, posted by DoYouKnowHim? on August 20, 2005, at 3:28:39
UM for some ppl it is all MEDS.
Mental illness is mental illness. I got mine from vitamin A overdose. I cant just put on a positive mood to cure the mind torture that unables me to function. I needed a med to save my life and paxil did it.
You cant cure cancer with Talk Therapy. You cant cure real Mental Illness with Talk therapy. There are many different forms of so called depression. And mine isn't the 'oh dear bad things happening in my life' kind. It is something wrong in my brain.
Posted by Declan on August 23, 2005, at 14:58:59
In reply to Re: Hey folks, it's not just the MEDS, posted by adamCanada on August 23, 2005, at 12:21:13
Adam
When you got poioned with vitamin A, what happened to you? You mind telling?
Declan
Posted by adamCanada on August 25, 2005, at 0:53:09
In reply to Vitamin A poioning » adamCanada, posted by Declan on August 23, 2005, at 14:58:59
vision got much darker. everything looked soooo dark. no bright colors. skin more yellow. hair developed strength for some reason and would no longer slightly fall out when i would shower. intense burning mental and head pains. lack of emotion. lack of enjoyment. grim feelings. inability to concentrate. all interests gone. low energy. zombie attitude.
but most severe was the constant mind torture mental burning pains.
If I believed in heaven or an afterlife I WOULD have killed myself. But I dont know what is beyond this. So I sure as heck have to try and make the best of what I have. I am sure most ppl would have killed themselves if they went through what ihave.
every second you have constant pain and wish you were freggin dead
Posted by Declan on August 25, 2005, at 7:37:29
In reply to Re: Hey folks, it's not just the MEDS, posted by adamCanada on August 23, 2005, at 12:21:13
Straight vitamin A, not one of the analogues? From too many vitamins?
(When my mother was being treated for lymphoma, she was put on a course of bexarotene, which was supposed to be promising for this sort of cancer. Didn't work, it might have helped, but not much.)
Declan
Posted by adamCanada on August 25, 2005, at 17:48:37
In reply to Re: Hey folks, it's not just the MEDS » adamCanada, posted by Declan on August 25, 2005, at 7:37:29
Accutane is an altered form of vitamin A.
Posted by declan on August 26, 2005, at 2:18:16
In reply to It was accutane, posted by adamCanada on August 25, 2005, at 17:48:37
It's the one implicated in depression and suicide, isn't it?
Declan
Posted by ed_uk on August 26, 2005, at 13:46:28
In reply to Re: It was accutane, posted by declan on August 26, 2005, at 2:18:16
Hi Dec,
Yes. I took it too. It cleared my acne.
Kind regards
~Ed
This is the end of the thread.
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