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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Jen Star on July 19, 2005, at 17:58:56
In reply to About my post..and Suicide..., posted by med_empowered on July 19, 2005, at 17:45:30
I think diet and the foods available may be a factor in the rising rates of cancer, mental illness, MS and more. The research is "out" on this still and the FDA & many doctors don't agree. BUT -- people are starting to believe and think that things like excess MSG, flavor and color-enhancing chemicals in our foods, preservatives, insecticides, etc. are not meant to be ingested by humans and may in fact be affecting our immune systems and neurological systems.
I've read about a lot of people who claim to have cured various illnesses in themselves by doing dramatic 'back to nature' organic diets, avoiding processed foods and many chemicals.
It's food for thought (no pun intended!)
JenStar
Posted by Jazzed on July 19, 2005, at 18:03:36
In reply to Here we go again..., posted by SLS on July 19, 2005, at 15:03:11
SLS,
Once again, I think you are brilliant! I agree with you wholeheartedly.
My opinion, for what it's worth....
I don't think any one drug, or class of drugs, works for all people who are depressed, or that any one drug works for anyone 100% of the time, or that the "recommended dose" works the same (or as it should) for all people who are depressed. I also think that if someone is suicidal, they might not find the drug that will work for them before they (unfortunately) commit suicide.I think the number of choices available today are a lot better than the number of choices that were available years ago. I also have hope that the drugs to treat mental illnesses will get better and better with more research and development. While I'm sure the "bottom line" will always be a factor, and managed health care (or lack of health care, or NHS) will continue to interfere with the ability to get proper care for mental illness, there has to be some hope that things will get better, and more choices will be out there for people suffering from mental illnesses. I do worry about how managed healthcare will be, with regard to mental health, for our kids when they reach adulthood.
Aren't there a lot more people "functioning" at a much higher level today than there were years ago? I really don't know, this is a question.
As far as my personal situation is concerned with regard to medication, I trust my p-doc to help me find what will work best for me.
Jazzy
Posted by KaraS on July 19, 2005, at 18:30:48
In reply to Not sure what to believe anymore, posted by TamaraJ on July 19, 2005, at 17:18:34
Dear Tamara,
It breaks my heart to see you going through so much trouble with all of these drugs. I know it's getting harder and harder to do but try to keep remembering how much you were helped by the Paxil for so many years. You felt worse initially on the Paxil too. There's still plenty of time for things to turn around on the Zoloft. It's still way too early to judge it. If it can happen once for you, then it can definitely happen again.
As for the hope that you might have a heart attack at night and not wake up, I bet there are few people on this board who HAVEN'T had that thought! I know I certainly have. Especially lately. It would all be so much easier... but then we'd miss all of the good times ahead that are going to happen for us when we feel good again.
(((((Tamara)))))
K
Posted by ed_uk on July 19, 2005, at 18:33:25
In reply to About my post..and Suicide..., posted by med_empowered on July 19, 2005, at 17:45:30
Hi Med,
>As a result, humanity has art, religion, philosophy, music...things that make life meaningful, full, rich...and worth living.
Ahh music... I love it. I'm listening to Albinoni right now.
Thank you for your interesting posts :-)
Kind regards
~Ed
Posted by linkadge on July 19, 2005, at 18:57:55
In reply to About my post..and Suicide..., posted by med_empowered on July 19, 2005, at 17:45:30
Just to counter. I think there is some good in psychiatry. For instance, there are fewer seizures these days thanks to anticonvulsants. But on the other side, epileptic patients treated with anticonvulsants are at a higher risk for depression, and suicide.
Psychiatry is amazed by "effect". They love being able to poke around in the brain and do all sorts of neet things. But the fact remains that you can do a lot of poking around without really getting anywhere. We poke around with such a shallow knowledge of what we're doing. We love the effect of being able to take a pill and feel better. It gives us as sence of controll. But that sence of controll might not be cost free.
I also think that psychiatry ignores the large picture. If you come in with insomnia, they think it is great that they can get you to sleep, but don't really notice that their drug also seems to reduce your daytime alertness. They dismiss the colaterall dammage left right and center.
I really like the term "brain disabling treatments". I don't like Breggin much, but I like that term. It is so true that oftentimes the theraputic effect occurs conncurrently with some sort of loss of mental function. You take the drug and after a lot of pushing and pulling you end up "getting by" but never really better. Just kind of a zombie, numb to the good things too.
Kind of like a chemical lobotomy. Sure you're not crying, and you're not sad, but come to think of it you're really not anything anymore.I would not go so far as to say that psychiatry has been able to do nothing, but I totally agree with you when you say that they definately overestimate their abilities, and underestimate their dammage.
I was never suicidal before taking an AD, but it is so clear cut to me that there is a problem, because after stopping them I now feel suicidal. Why? Really I feel so suicidal because I have lost all my faculties, I still can't go 10 minautes without experiencing a brain zap or a terrable neck twisting sensation. I may have to live with this for the rest of my life.
I don't want a majic pill, I just want my orignial life back. I feel like Michael Jackson who, at the end of all his plastic sugery relizes, "What the hell have I done to myself!". I just wanted a little bit of a nicer nose, I've screwed up my entire face !! Its exactly like plastic surgery. Most people get into this because they want "a little work done" so to speak. But the silocone can explode folks, the silicone can explode.
Now, in order to avert the guilt I feel over ever getting myself into this mess, I continue to buy into the "theres something wrong with me".
No more.
At this stage of the game my best bet is to just let go, and stay deformed for fear of making it worse.
Linkadge
Posted by Jakeman on July 19, 2005, at 20:28:59
In reply to Re: About my post..and Suicide... » med_empowered, posted by linkadge on July 19, 2005, at 18:57:55
I guess one can assume that there's some correlation between depression and suicide.
Here are suicide rates from various countries from WHO:
http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/suiciderates/en/
USA suicide rates http://www.afsp.org/statistics/USAagegroup.htm
Looking over these charts I could not infer anything. Other than the fact that men kill themselves more than women.
Some of the data my be bad, I don't know. The only thing that's clear is that mental illness is universal, whether medication helps I don't know.
Interesting data to explore though.
warm regards ~Jake
Posted by Jakeman on July 19, 2005, at 20:39:40
In reply to Re: About my post..and Suicide... » med_empowered, posted by ed_uk on July 19, 2005, at 18:33:25
> Hi Med,
>
> >As a result, humanity has art, religion, philosophy, music...things that make life meaningful, full, rich...and worth living.
>
> Ahh music... I love it. I'm listening to Albinoni right now.
>
> Thank you for your interesting posts :-)
>
> Kind regards
>
> ~Edthanks ed, you reminded me to turn on my itunes player and listen to some trippy ambient music.
~Jake
Posted by Phillipa on July 19, 2005, at 20:46:47
In reply to Re: About my post..and Suicide..., posted by Jakeman on July 19, 2005, at 20:39:40
It's been said so many times before that the first time an antidepressant is taken it works after that it doesn't. I was first put on paxil l0mg and lopressor 25mg and xanax. I also drank beer at night. I was so sick during the day for the first three months that my only relief came with the beer at night. Now I've read that alchohol can inactivate AD's so does that mean my depression went away without the benefit of paxil? If so the AD's don't work for me. I have severe anxiety disorder only benzos can treat. I don't drink anymore but maybe that would be a better choice. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by linkadge on July 19, 2005, at 20:47:16
In reply to Re: About my post..and Suicide..., posted by Jakeman on July 19, 2005, at 20:39:40
I don't think one can infer from this table that mental illness is universal. The highest regions have like 75/100,000 and the lowest are like 0.
If mental illness was univeral I would expect to see much less diversity in the rates.
Linkadge
Posted by Jakeman on July 19, 2005, at 21:03:54
In reply to Re: About my post..and Suicide..., posted by linkadge on July 19, 2005, at 20:47:16
> I don't think one can infer from this table that mental illness is universal. The highest regions have like 75/100,000 and the lowest are like 0.
>
> If mental illness was univeral I would expect to see much less diversity in the rates.
>
>Good point, and I guess these statistics aren't a reliable measure of mental illness. But then, maybe I should consider a trip to the Dominican Republic :-). I do think sociology plays into this, not just biology.
~J
Posted by Jakeman on July 19, 2005, at 21:17:27
In reply to Re: About my post..and Suicide..., posted by Phillipa on July 19, 2005, at 20:46:47
Then we have to worry about the fact that long-term effects (>6 monthes) have not been tested.
warm regards ~Jake
Posted by Jazzed on July 19, 2005, at 22:54:13
In reply to About my post..and Suicide..., posted by med_empowered on July 19, 2005, at 17:45:30
>>For thousands of years, people have searched for answers about life and happiness/unhappiness. As a result, humanity has art, religion, philosophy, music...things that make life meaningful, full, rich...and worth living.Yeah, but if you're depressed it's very difficult to find the energy or desire to enjoy those pursuits. I would rather know that there is medication which might be beneficial to me, that I can take if I'm depressed. If I have to take medication to overcome depression, in order to be able to enjoy life, then so be it. I'd rather do that than try in vain to overcome a depression that is possibly biochemical in nature, that no art, religion, philosophy, or music will help. That said, I know that there are people out there who are having a very difficult time overcoming their depression even with medication, BUT at least there is some hope that they will find the right medication, at the right dose in order to feel better. At the time I was seriously depressed, the answers to those questions had little meaning to me, I just wanted to feel better, to get my life back. Those questions were for people with more energy.
>>How can psychiatry, which emerged from the madhouse with claims of "curing the insane" even TRY to compare itself to these endeavors?
I don't recall ever hearing that psychiatry has ever tried to compare itself with those endeavors.
>>How can psychiatrists dare to assert that their expensive little pills are some how of equal value as, say, the teachings of Jesus, Buddha, or Gandhi in explaining and healing life's pain?
IMHO I don't think very many psychiatrists would exert that medications were of equal value. Hopefully the good psychiatrists just want to make people who are suffering feel better and function more effectively.
Jazzy
Posted by Jazzed on July 19, 2005, at 23:00:43
In reply to Re: About my post..and Suicide..., posted by linkadge on July 19, 2005, at 20:47:16
> I don't think one can infer from this table that mental illness is universal. The highest regions have like 75/100,000 and the lowest are like 0.
>
> If mental illness was univeral I would expect to see much less diversity in the rates.
>
>
> LinkadgeIs it possible that in some of these areas it's a problem with reporting suicide, rather than the data being correct? I don't know, just asking.
Jazzy
Posted by Jazzed on July 19, 2005, at 23:10:35
In reply to Not sure what to believe anymore, posted by TamaraJ on July 19, 2005, at 17:18:34
> I, personally, am about to give up. I can't live like this anymore - trying one drug after another. I have tried to maintain some faith that I will be fortunate enough to have a similar response to another med, or combination of meds, as I did to Paxil 9 years ago. But, I am demoralized and tired, and, as pitiful as this sounds, I have lately just been hoping for a heart attack in my sleep to put me out of my misery. Can't believe I just said that, but it actually feels good to get it off my chest.Hi Tamara,
My gosh, not a rant at all! I am so sorry that you're feeling so incredibly bad. I can really hear in your post how painful this is for you, and it's certainly understandable that you want to get help somewhere, anywhere. I hope that the Zoloft starts to work for you soon. Did you start at a lower dose? Do you trust your p-doc?
I really honestly don't know anything technical about the antidepressants, and the secondary effect that people talk about, I hope it's not true for everybody, and that you will find something that helps, and soon.
(((hugs))))
Jazzy
Posted by CAROLINA on July 20, 2005, at 1:05:58
In reply to Re: Not sure what to believe anymore, posted by Jazzed on July 19, 2005, at 23:10:35
ok i tried to keep up w/ who said what but there were so many posts! im gonna keep it simple. from the psy. that i have studied i believe that this comes back to nature vs nurture. i agree 100% that there are people that need medications b/c of biological related reasons but i have also seen people that grew up in negative environments or had a life altering event that they had a hard time coping w/ and needed meds. to be honest, i was on effexor and after reading all the different reactions and side effects,etc., i did some research of my own and believe that my taking the meds. wasn't the answer. i think that PERSONALLY i allowed my docs to convince me that "this drug will help" and ur diag. is....when i realized that until 2001 i was ok. a life altering event changed me but now over 4 years later i am no better so i quit the meds. and have decided to get into intensive counseling to deal w/ the issue that sent me into this awful darkness. i feel better so far and i know that time will tell but i believe that IN MY CASE, i need to dig deep and the meds. were only masking the real issue- each person is different so unless each person is individually tested, who can truly say if they do or do not need meds.??? take care..Carolina
Posted by SLS on July 20, 2005, at 1:53:18
In reply to Re: Bad (but expected) news about ADs » SLS, posted by linkadge on July 19, 2005, at 17:26:56
> I don't know what you are saying.
>
>
> Linadge
What I am saying is that the rates of reporting of suicides have changed, not the occurence of suicide. Suicides are reported much more often now because it is no longer a taboo to admit that it happens at all. It is a cultural thing. It is also a data collection thing. How does one go about finding out who commits suicide and who doesn't? Compare the technology between then and now. Even the telephone has made a huge difference in reporting practices. If anything, the rates of *reported* suicides should have increased given an equal rate of actual suicides, yet, reported rates have remained the same according to *your* citation. This means that the rate of actual suicides must actually have decreased.Along another line of observation is the *fact* that rates of suicide have dropped precipitously since the introduction of Prozac and the media coverage that it brought to depression and its biological nature. It has become far less stigmatized, and more people came out of the closet to be treated.
American suicide rates have dropped steadily since the introduction of serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) drugs
http://www.news-medical.net/?id=7622
Suicide rates have decreased steadily since the introduction of antidepressants. These drugs work. For many, they work like magic.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on July 20, 2005, at 2:01:05
In reply to Re: Bad (but expected) news about ADs, posted by linkadge on July 19, 2005, at 17:25:01
> Combinations of drugs can also do more harm, and cause more unknown and potentially permanant side effects.
This why I allow my doctor to treat me rather than me treat myself. I bring in my ideas for combinations, but he is the one educated in pharmacology and other areas of medicine that render him capable of determining the risks of adverse drug interactions. Of course, sometimes we enter unknown territory. This is why he is slow in his titrations in such circumstances.
> We don't do enough studies on how single drugs affect the brain, let alone taking combinations of drugs.
This is true. We just aren't there yet, I guess. However, why should the elucidation of drug-brain biology prevent one from taking a combination of imipramine + lithium, one that is known to be safe and actually work? Do you think people found it necessary to understand the mechanisms behind the antibiotic activity of penicillin before commiting to using it?
> I just think they're overrated thats all.
To someone who is treatment-resistant *or* misdiagnosed, this feeling is perfectly understandable.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on July 20, 2005, at 2:07:40
In reply to About my post..and Suicide..., posted by med_empowered on July 19, 2005, at 17:45:30
The apparent "weakness" of placebo controlled studies arises from the incredibly high rate of placebo response seen in these trials - 30-35%. If you drop the placebo responders, you get a success rate of antidepressants that is truly impressive - 65-75%.
Some investigators have studied the nature of the placebo response, its course longitudinally, and how it affects the statistical power of results.
Here's a quicky that uses the same citations as one that would have us believe that antidepressants are barely more effective than placebo. I wrote about this in another thread today, but I don't remember where it is.
Counterpoint:Clinical trials of antidepressant medications are producing meaningless results
http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/183/2/102
- Scott
Posted by SLS on July 20, 2005, at 2:18:11
In reply to Re: Here we go again... » SLS, posted by Jazzed on July 19, 2005, at 18:03:36
Hi Jazzy.
> Once again, I think you are brilliant!
My intellectual powers are greatly overrated, but I will accept the self-esteem booster. Thanks.
> My opinion, for what it's worth....> I don't think any one drug, or class of drugs, works for all people who are depressed,
This is unfortunate. Things would be so much easier if one drug cured everone. Unfortunately, depression (and other mental illnesses) are just like any other medical illness. No one drug works optimally for 100% of cases of any one illness, whether it be lymphoma, Parkinsons, throat infections, dandruff, headache, AIDS, arthritis, hypertension, etc.
> or that any one drug works for anyone 100% of the time, or that the "recommended dose" works the same (or as it should) for all people who are depressed.
I think we have unreasonable expectations of our antidepressants. We demand of them more than we demand of other types of medication.
> I think the number of choices available today are a lot better than the number of choices that were available years ago. I also have hope that the drugs to treat mental illnesses will get better and better with more research and development. While I'm sure the "bottom line" will always be a factor, and managed health care (or lack of health care, or NHS) will continue to interfere with the ability to get proper care for mental illness, there has to be some hope that things will get better, and more choices will be out there for people suffering from mental illnesses. I do worry about how managed healthcare will be, with regard to mental health, for our kids when they reach adulthood.
>
> Aren't there a lot more people "functioning" at a much higher level today than there were years ago? I really don't know, this is a question.
>
> As far as my personal situation is concerned with regard to medication, I trust my p-doc to help me find what will work best for me.I agree with you on all points. I guess you must be brilliant too.
;-)
- Scott
Posted by SLS on July 20, 2005, at 2:24:09
In reply to Re: Bad (but expected) news about ADs, posted by Nickengland on July 19, 2005, at 16:23:12
> One thing to remember is (and this is my experience) with anti-depressants - they are not "pro happiness" pills.
Perfect!
This is great. I never thought to put it that way, but you are absolutely right.
I think this is where a great deal of miscommunication take place amongst people when they enter a discussion regarding antidepressants and mental illness in general.
Thanks!
- Scott
Posted by SLS on July 20, 2005, at 2:33:40
In reply to Re: Here we go again..., posted by linkadge on July 19, 2005, at 16:30:42
> > "When I responded well to antidepressants, it certainly did "bust" the underlying illness, not just selected symptoms."
> No offence, but that is impossable for you to know.I am somewhat offended, only because you are asserting something that *you* couldn't possibly know.
> Didn't these majic pills make you manic ?
After 6 months of uninterrupted euthymia, yes.
I am bipolar, remember? How does becoming manic nullify the global effect of remission that the antidepressants produced for me?
> Even though sinequan made my mother manic, and sent her into a downward spiral of psychwards, dirty antipsychotics, and experimentational mood stabalizing agents, she still contends that it was a gift from god, and that it cured her.
> Why does she say this?
Have you ever asked her?
> Because if she says otherwise, the last 20 years of her life have been lived in vain.
Was this her answer?
- Scott
Posted by SLS on July 20, 2005, at 2:55:39
In reply to Re: About my post..and Suicide... » med_empowered, posted by Jen Star on July 19, 2005, at 17:54:37
> I think it's dangerous to get too "into" any one method to cure something as fragile and mysterious (even to the best neurologists and researchers!) as the human mind.
It is the brain that seems to be working improperly in most cases of properly diagnosed MDD, and certainly in BD. The mind just naturally follows. Actually, this can work the other way around as well. Actually, both can work simultaneously. However, affective disorders, the brain gets stuck somehow and proceeds to deteriorate further on its own. If you interrupt the cycle of dysregulated brain -> dysfunctional mind by tickling the brain, you sometimes see an almost instantaneous resolution of the dysfunction in mind dynamics.
> If we focus on drugs to the exclusion of religion, meditation, etc, we are losing out.
Any healthy person can benefit from these things. They may not be at all necessary in most cases of MDD, but they can certainly help. I think psychotherapy can sometimes accelerate recovery from depression, and certainly help prevent relapses in many people.
> But I think in general we as a society are starting to overmedicate in general
I think I would agree with you on this. It is a very popular theme at the moment.
> I believe that mental illness is real.It definitely is.
However, I think some people get hung-up in pondering the abstractions of what are normal and abnormal behaviors for a particular culture at a particular time such that they would nullify the existence of mental illness.
> I'm just not sure that our drugs really work to "fix" it.
I think that most of our current treatments probably work by producing compensatative changes in the brain rather than producing a true cure. However, this should not dissuade someone from believing that these therapeutic mechanisms, whatever they may me, actually can produce a full remission, and not simply manage sets of symptoms.
> I hope that as tech. advances, our drugs become more refined and can really help the majority of people.
I'm sure we all do. Damned drugs.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on July 20, 2005, at 3:02:17
In reply to Re: About my post..and Suicide..., posted by Jakeman on July 19, 2005, at 21:03:54
> I do think sociology plays into this,
In a big way. This is unfortunate, but true.
> not just biology.
It is hard to separate the two. If we look at stress in general, we know that it can affect adversely if not generate things like hypertension, heart disease, cancer, immunosupression, diabetes, etc. These are all biological disorders. So is MDD (more or less).
- Scott
Posted by SLS on July 20, 2005, at 3:05:20
In reply to Re: About my post..and Suicide... » Phillipa, posted by Jakeman on July 19, 2005, at 21:17:27
> Then we have to worry about the fact that long-term effects (>6 monthes) have not been tested.
I'm sorry, I'm a little confused here. The long-term effects of what have not been tested?
- Scott
Posted by SLS on July 20, 2005, at 3:09:14
In reply to Re: Here we go again... » Jazzed, posted by SLS on July 20, 2005, at 2:18:11
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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