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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by sdb on May 20, 2005, at 8:04:44
In reply to Re: PRAZEPAM to darkhorse and everybody » sdb, posted by darkhorse on May 18, 2005, at 6:00:29
Hi darkhorse!
Thanks very much for sharing information. I would be pleased asking you further things if necessary in bz's relating questions because of your great experience.
You once rated benzodiazepines related to sedation. Is it possible to do also a rating in cognitive impairment and diminishing anxiety?
Bye the way, clonazepam experiences seem for me the same as you have.
Many thanks
sdb
Posted by sdb on May 22, 2005, at 11:18:31
In reply to Bz's questions / rating / sharing of experience, posted by sdb on May 20, 2005, at 8:04:44
Hi Darkhorse, hi everybody!
I have pretty good stabilizing effects with prazepam. It works more subtle and as you said 11 pm once daily intake. It's somehow activating but also makes you a bit tired. I think its an underestimated long-acting bz with interesting pharmacokinetics. I have taken it for eight days and stopped it immediately after testing without any problems.
You prefer Bromazepam.
Is it possible to thake Bromazepam possibly once a day, what is your experience?
My goal is to treat bp (with OCD, Anxiety and SP in bad mood swings) with longer acting bz's instead of not yet success with mood-stabilizers.
You once rated ketazolam as very sedating, is it true? Are there some other long-acting bz's I am possibly not aware?
I am not interested in short-acting bz's like alprazolam.
Thanks for sharing experience.
Regards
sdb
Posted by chemist on May 22, 2005, at 12:24:13
In reply to Bzs questions Bromazepamto Darkhorse and everybody, posted by sdb on May 22, 2005, at 11:18:31
hello there, chemist here...i assume you are not in the u.s. given the meds you note...the benzodiazepine derivative that came to mind - although i am uncertain if it is marketed and where - is a slight (very slight) variation on the prazepam theme: the phenyl in the 5-position off the 7-membered ring in prazepam is devoid of any ring substituents; if one fluorinates the phenyl moiety in question in the 2-position, one has flutoprazepam...long half-life, 2 or 3 (??) active metabolites...in any event, you might see if it is available in your area....all the best, chemist
> Hi Darkhorse, hi everybody!
>
> I have pretty good stabilizing effects with prazepam. It works more subtle and as you said 11 pm once daily intake. It's somehow activating but also makes you a bit tired. I think its an underestimated long-acting bz with interesting pharmacokinetics. I have taken it for eight days and stopped it immediately after testing without any problems.
>
> You prefer Bromazepam.
>
> Is it possible to thake Bromazepam possibly once a day, what is your experience?
>
> My goal is to treat bp (with OCD, Anxiety and SP in bad mood swings) with longer acting bz's instead of not yet success with mood-stabilizers.
>
> You once rated ketazolam as very sedating, is it true? Are there some other long-acting bz's I am possibly not aware?
>
> I am not interested in short-acting bz's like alprazolam.
>
> Thanks for sharing experience.
>
> Regards
>
> sdb
Posted by sdb on May 22, 2005, at 14:11:32
In reply to a quick one.... » sdb, posted by chemist on May 22, 2005, at 12:24:13
Thanks for the information,
I did not know a thing before that flutoprazepam exists after consulting information of bz, derivates, chemistry and their metabolites.
Even prazepam is marketed in not many countries in spite I think it could be a helpful long half-life bz (Xaxax XR is a bad example how to make a lot of money without doing more needed research)By the way, is there any standart book of bz chemistry?
Look at:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20050510/msgs/497673.html
Regards
sdb
Posted by chemist on May 23, 2005, at 8:53:58
In reply to Re: a quick one...., posted by sdb on May 22, 2005, at 14:11:32
> Thanks for the information,
>
> I did not know a thing before that flutoprazepam exists after consulting information of bz, derivates, chemistry and their metabolites.
> Even prazepam is marketed in not many countries in spite I think it could be a helpful long half-life bz (Xaxax XR is a bad example how to make a lot of money without doing more needed research)
>
> By the way, is there any standart book of bz chemistry?
>
> Look at:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20050510/msgs/497673.html
>
> Regards
>
> sdbhello there again....i do not use any text for benzo/related, and do not know if one or more are in print that are worth the money, especially given the (key) AChBP crystal structure publication as of late...i have over 70 pubs (j. org.. chem. and j. med. chem., almost all in those journals), anything by sternbach is there, and that's fine for me...i just do not know and sternbach's synth pubs are quite nice....sorry about that...if it makes you feel any better, the pharma people i know or have worked with in the past or present do the m.s. bit, i say give it a try before spending the money!!!.......all the best, chemist
Posted by darkhorse on May 23, 2005, at 9:22:37
In reply to Bzs questions Bromazepamto Darkhorse and everybody, posted by sdb on May 22, 2005, at 11:18:31
> Hi sdb,
>
> I have pretty good stabilizing effects with prazepam. It works more subtle and as you said 11 pm once daily intake. It's somehow activating but also makes you a bit tired. I think its an underestimated long-acting bz with interesting pharmacokinetics. I have taken it for eight days and stopped it immediately after testing without any problems.I can not agree more about all your statement!
>
> You prefer Bromazepam.
>
> Is it possible to thake Bromazepam possibly once a day, what is your experience?Yes,bromazepam is more of a longer acting BZ. It lasts 19+ hours for a 3mg.I've tried 6mg once a day in the morning and it lasted until next day.No feelings of any withdrawal at all.
You see, the higher the dose, the longer it stays in the body.But, like all other long acting BZ some people prefer to take them in divided doses twice or 3 times a day.
Personally, I prefer bromazepam because it is the least sedating (except Clobazam which did not fit my body chemistry),and that once you take before bedtime for a few days, you get a total tolerance of its very mild sedation,and then can be taken in the morninig.
If you do not suffer from chronic insomnia, to me bromazepam is the best daytime anti-anxiety medication (tiny cognitive problems,no sedation and drug accumilation(tiredness) (e.g.diazepam,clorazepate,prazepam,ketazolam) activation, mood-elevating proporties,no depression(Clonazepam),least amnesia(e.g. Ativan/Temesta), no space-out feelings (Xanax),no severe withdrawal effect (comparable to diazepam and prazepam)
Maybe I'm biased a bit....but I do not know... after trying those extremley famous BZ (e.g. Clonazepam,alprazolam,diazepam..etc)I reached a conclusion that famous does not mean better!!!
same as AD's.>
> You once rated ketazolam as very sedating, is it true? Are there some other long-acting bz's I am possibly not aware?I did not try it for long and maybe the fluoxetine I was taking at the time intensfied the effect.Also I took 30 mg a day which is not a very low BZ.It was not a bad one,but did not give it a long trial and can not remember why.
In my limited knowledge I will try to list you the longet to the shortest acting BZ which I've tried , so here goes nothing !!:
1.Prazepam,Diazepam,Ketazolam,Clorazepate and Chlordiazepoxide are the longest acting.(50-200hours)2.- Bromazepam,Clonazepam,Clobazam,Flunitrazepam and Nitrazepam are also long acting - medium acting (20-40hours).
3- Delorazepam,Cloxazolam,Lormetazepam and Tetrazepam are medium acting (13-15 hours)
Short acting :
4- Lorazepam (12 hous)
5- Cinloazepam (9 hours)
6- Oxazepam and Alprazolam (6-8 hours)
7- Tofisopam,Bentazepam and Brotizolam (5 hours)
8- Zopiclone ( 4hours)
9- Triazolam and Zolpidem (3 hours).* Hours are approximate,and all this info is based mainly on my trials.....
>
> Thanks for sharing experience.THANK YOU for your kindness...
>
> Regards
>
Darkhorse.
Posted by SLS on May 23, 2005, at 10:09:20
In reply to Re: Has somebody ever taken prazepam (Centrax)? » sdb, posted by darkhorse on May 4, 2005, at 9:39:26
Hi.
It sounds like prazepam might be an effective drug to cross-over to from other BZDs when one is looking to discontinue them - perhaps more effective than diazepam.
Any thoughts?
- Scott
Posted by sdb on May 23, 2005, at 13:08:51
In reply to Re: Has somebody ever taken prazepam (Centrax)?, posted by SLS on May 23, 2005, at 10:09:20
Hi!
To SLS: I would say prazepam could be useful to stop for example alprazolam, but you would have them take first togheter because of very long onset of steady-state levels of active metabolite nordiazepam and then stop prazepam slowly. There are some interesting articles in pubmed of prazepam pharmacokinetics pharmacology.
To DARKHORSE: Did you ever have tolerance to benzos for example prazepam, bromazepam?
Regardssdb
Posted by sdb on May 23, 2005, at 20:06:53
In reply to Re: prazepam (centrax) to DARKHORSE and SLS, posted by sdb on May 23, 2005, at 13:08:51
Hi darkhorse!
Sorry to interrupt you but it is very useful to hear to someone experienced in bz's here.
One more question after (tolerance to bz's above all prazepam, bromazepam):
How would you rate bz's in cognitive impairment e.g. memorizing things, or attention?-Especially prazepam and bromazepam compared to others e.g. diazepam?
Kind regards
sdb
Posted by darkhorse on May 24, 2005, at 3:51:02
In reply to Re: prazepam (centrax) to DARKHORSE and SLS, posted by sdb on May 23, 2005, at 13:08:51
> Hi!
>
.
>
> To DARKHORSE: Did you ever have tolerance to benzos for example prazepam, bromazepam?I never had a tolerance with BZ anti- anxiety effects.But tolerance to their hypnotic effects, yes.
The only BZ that I had tolerance with was Xanax.
I used to have in the past good anti- anxiety effect from 0.5 3 times a day.
Recently I tried it a gain and it seemed that I had to take it more frequently to maintain the effect, like 0.5 mg 5 times a day, so I stopped of fear of dependence.Once I stayed for months on 1mg twice a day of Lorazepam (Temesta/Ativan) and never felt the need to escalate the dose.
In fact when I experimented with more for a couple of days I felt worse.Same with Prazepam,diazepam,bromazepam ..etc. For me, it seems that I have a dosage that is just perfect,if decreases it gives this uneasy sedated can't- think feeling, and if increased it gives this bad dream-like state with some feelings of aggression,rudness and tiredness.
Sorry for the long talk!
Best regards,
Darkhorse.
>
>
> Regards
>
> sdb
Posted by darkhorse on May 24, 2005, at 4:32:09
In reply to prazepam (centrax) one more please to DARKHORSE, posted by sdb on May 23, 2005, at 20:06:53
> Hi Sdb
> How would you rate bz's in cognitive impairment e.g. memorizing things, or attention?-Especially prazepam and bromazepam compared to others e.g. diazepam?This is a difficult question.
IMO, I think the relation between sedation and cognitive impairment is very weak.e.g I rate Lorazepam as not so sedating i.e. I have good concentration and can function very well.However, when I stop it, I'm not able to recall some things in details.
On the other hand a more sedating compound such as Clonazepam, when I took it I could not concentrate or do any work, felt blue and very tired, but when I stopped and all those nasty effects vanished, it seemed I was able to remember events (marginally) more than lorazepam.
Another better example is Clobazam (Frisum) :
Although it is the only BZ that is totally devoid of any sedation.when I took it, I "felt" like I'm functioning well and no tiredness at all (but due to its anxiety/aggression/unease effect on me I stopped).
However, when I stopped, I could not rcall very much how nasty I was!So, going back to your question:
1- in terms of "memorizing aspects" I think that all BZ tend to have this amnestic effects regardless of their sedation, but I rate Lorazepam,Cloxazolam Zolpidem and Lormetazepam as the strongest,and Chlordiazepoxide,Bentazepam,Bromazepam and Prazepam as the least amnestic.
2- In terms of " attention" I think that sedation here plays the major part : the more sedating, the more difficult to concentrate and do things.
Just a humble opinion!!
>
> Kind regards
>
>Darkhorse
>
Posted by darkhorse on May 24, 2005, at 5:25:26
In reply to Re: Has somebody ever taken prazepam (Centrax)?, posted by SLS on May 23, 2005, at 10:09:20
> Hi.
>
> It sounds like prazepam might be an effective drug to cross-over to from other BZDs when one is looking to discontinue them - perhaps more effective than diazepam.
>
> Any thoughts?Hello Scott :
- I think the reason why diazepam is the "gold standard" to dicontinue, because it is available all over the world (unlike the other similar long-acting ones),commonly prescribed and most physicians are familiar with it,and therefore it was naturally chosen.
- However compounds that have the same long half- life but even less potent and less sedative might be another very good option e.g. (chlordiazepoxide and Prazepam),but I do not think it would be a *better* opion.More or less the same.
- I tapered after long use of Lorazepam, with bromazepam,and even though it was not an easy ride,it worked,so I think the bottom line is to substitute the short acting ones with longer acting ones and decrease very slowly and according to how one's feel.
Best wishes,
Darkhorse.
>
>
> - Scott
>
Posted by ed_uk on May 24, 2005, at 14:00:41
In reply to Re: prazepam (centrax) one more please to DARKHORSE, posted by darkhorse on May 24, 2005, at 4:32:09
Hi DH!
I'd like to try bromazepam!
Kind regards,
Ed.PS. It's GOOD to see you posting again, I always read your posts :-D
Posted by sdb on May 24, 2005, at 18:45:30
In reply to Re: prazepam (centrax) one more please to DARKHORSE » darkhorse, posted by ed_uk on May 24, 2005, at 14:00:41
Yes, its good to have you here darkhorse and ed_uk.
I would be pleased to ask some more questions related to bromazepam and prazepam experience some days later (hard working).
Kind regards
Posted by darkhorse on May 25, 2005, at 4:12:05
In reply to Re: prazepam (centrax) one more please to DARKHORSE » darkhorse, posted by ed_uk on May 24, 2005, at 14:00:41
> Hi ED:
>
It's GOOD to see you posting again, I always read your posts :-DSame here. I ALWAYS read your exremely useful messages.
You are such an informative, modest and sweet soul>
All the best with your exams!
Darkhorse
P.S. I try very hard not to write messages too much, as you know it is so addictive (more than Ativan!! just kidding),but temptation is so powerful!
Posted by darkhorse on May 25, 2005, at 4:16:14
In reply to prazepam, bromazepam to darkhorse, ed_uk, posted by sdb on May 24, 2005, at 18:45:30
Hello Sdb,
> Yes, its good to have you here darkhorse and ed_uk.
It is my pleasure to share with you our experiences.
Wishing you all the best with your work.
Darkhorse.
>
> Kind regards
Posted by ed_uk on May 25, 2005, at 7:57:02
In reply to Re: prazepam (centrax) one more please to DARKHORSE » ed_uk, posted by darkhorse on May 25, 2005, at 4:12:05
Hi DH!
>All the best with your exams!
Thank you :-)
Kind regards,
Ed.
Posted by sdb on May 27, 2005, at 12:13:01
In reply to Re: prazepam, bromazepam to darkhorse, ed_uk » sdb, posted by darkhorse on May 25, 2005, at 4:16:14
Hi everbody, darkehorse, ed_uk,
The prazepam is pretty good but it has a long time of onset. After five days I felt the drug.
Clonazepam was good also in diminish panic, ocd in hypomanic phasis. The only disadvantage was some lethargic feelings and total sexual disfunction after approx. 3 days (first interestingly even increased sexual function). This bad sideeffects could diminsh with time according to studies so I cannot give an appropriate experience, because I have only taken it nine days constantly.-Did you also remark a long time of onset of the prazepem?
-How would you rate bromazepam/prazepam/clonazepam
related to sexual and cognitive (memorizing things) abilities?I am testing prazepam that time but I will perhaps give a try to bromazepam and and least buprenorphine (the only thing I would take in this substance class). Mood-stabilizers did nothing for me but perhaps I have taken the wrong combinations.A pdoc suggested lamical-seroquel, said it would be standart-therapie (Personally I dont like words like standart sometimes).
I have never taken non reversibel MAO's (poorly, no more available in my country). This could be an option after worst experiences and memorized OCD because of the SSRI's.
Thank for sharing experience.
Best wishes
sdb
Posted by ed_uk on May 27, 2005, at 12:57:19
In reply to Re: prazepam (centrax) one more please to DARKHORSE » ed_uk, posted by darkhorse on May 25, 2005, at 4:12:05
>You are such an informative, modest and sweet soul.......
That was such a nice thing to say :-) You are too kind lol :-)
Warm regards,
Ed.
Posted by sdb on May 27, 2005, at 14:35:50
In reply to Re: prazepam (centrax) one more please to DARKHORSE » darkhorse, posted by ed_uk on May 27, 2005, at 12:57:19
Hi ed_uk!
I also wish you good exams and a lot of courage.
Exams are part of our society, human compassion is best. Sorry, I have overseen that before. Hopefully not too late.Kind regards
sdb
Posted by ed_uk on May 27, 2005, at 15:21:08
In reply to Re: prazepam (centrax) one more please to DARKHORSE, posted by sdb on May 27, 2005, at 14:35:50
Hi sdb!
>I also wish you good exams and a lot of courage.
Thank you :-) I had an exam today, it wasn't too bad. Are you at University? If so, what subject?
Kind regards,
Ed.
Posted by sdb on May 27, 2005, at 15:55:10
In reply to Re: prazepam (centrax) one more please to DARKHORSE » sdb, posted by ed_uk on May 27, 2005, at 15:21:08
I am going to be MD.
Posted by ed_uk on May 27, 2005, at 16:10:37
In reply to Re: prazepam (centrax) one more please to DARKHORSE, posted by sdb on May 27, 2005, at 15:55:10
I always wanted to be a doctor. I gave up on my dream several years ago. Now I'm doing pharmacy which I don't like, it's boring as hell. How can you cope with doing medicine if you suffer from anxiety? I don't understand. I would need to be on 10mg Ativan a day to cope with the stress. Sorry, I'm bitter.
Posted by ed_uk on May 27, 2005, at 16:23:03
In reply to Re: prazepam (centrax) one more please to DARKHORSE, posted by sdb on May 27, 2005, at 15:55:10
>I am going to be MD.
Hi sdb,
Sorry, I just read my last post and it sounded rather rude- that was not my intention. A lot of babblers seem to be studying medicine. It really gets to me because it's something I can't do. I should probably stop asking people what they are studying! It would be better if I didn't know. If anyone is reading this and you are studying medcine, please don't tell me. It will make me depressed. It's illogical but true.
The difference between pharmacy and medicine: if you're doing medicine you get (almost) infinite opportunities; if you're doing pharmacy you get none.
Kind regards,
Ed.
Posted by ed_uk on May 27, 2005, at 16:35:28
In reply to Re: prazepam (centrax) one more please to DARKHORSE, posted by sdb on May 27, 2005, at 15:55:10
I've made a fool of myself now :-( I just got a bit emotional. I am selfish. I should have congratulated you but I was thinking about myself. OK, I'm gonna shut up now....
Kind regards,
Ed.PS. You'll be a great doc btw- you will understand the patient's point of view. You can be my doc lol!
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