![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 10 to 34 of 34. Go back in thread:
Posted by ed_uk on May 18, 2005, at 12:40:30
In reply to Re: Not that it matters...Just my opinion » Mr.Scott, posted by Ritch on May 18, 2005, at 12:32:05
Hi Mitch!
>I think RX drug ads should be banned.
You should come to Europe- it's illegal here!
Kind regards,
Ed.
Posted by Paulbwell on May 18, 2005, at 13:01:47
In reply to Not that it matters...Just my opinion, posted by Mr.Scott on May 18, 2005, at 2:47:19
> Maybe 15% of the people posting here actually have a real psychiatric problem. Of that group maybe half will get relief. Everyone else is simply neurotic except that these days flatulence can be somehow interpreted as bipolar disorder or ADHD.
>
> The rest are either a) prescription drug addicts who posibly don't even recognize it, or b)simply bored, unhappy, or otherwise normally upset with their lives and overmedicated by pompous uncaring *sshole doctors in a pharmaceutically driven society. The end result of which is a worsening of their sense of helplessness.
>
> My advice (to myself especially)...find a hobby instead of obsessing about ineffectual drugs. You've tried it all! Stop wasting your time & money. Go rob a bank or something...at least you'll make the evening news...
>
>You make some valid, common sence points. There are too many folks taking to many pills, often pushed on them by Docs with vested interests, whether or not 'the patient' is the top priority.
Folks here often seem to be too eager to try anything new--look at all the lunestra posts, with often little reguard for unforseen concequences.
People would do well to resist being the early guinea pigs, and remember the fact that most meds are poisons in quantitative doses.
Posted by SLS on May 18, 2005, at 16:15:51
In reply to Mr Scott » Mr.Scott, posted by Paulbwell on May 18, 2005, at 13:01:47
> Folks here often seem to be too eager to try anything new--
I would drink a glass of elephant urine t.i.d. if it would bring me into remission. That would be new. Of course, I would prefer to see how others do with it first before I take the plunge.
Eager?
Not really.
However, I am desperate, and since "old" does not work, that leaves me with "new". Understand?
- Scott
Posted by lara53 on May 18, 2005, at 18:21:15
In reply to Re: Mr Scott » Paulbwell, posted by SLS on May 18, 2005, at 16:15:51
Posted by Phillipa on May 18, 2005, at 18:44:26
In reply to Re: Mr Scott » Paulbwell, posted by SLS on May 18, 2005, at 16:15:51
I guess that's why I haven't used the vouchers for the free lunesta pills yet. i'm still waiting. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Mr.Scott on May 18, 2005, at 20:19:24
In reply to Re: Not that it matters...Just my opinion » Mr.Scott, posted by SLS on May 18, 2005, at 11:22:15
Although it's unclear from your post exactly how, I am sorry if I offended you. My frustration anyway... is hopefully clear by now.
Too much time getting nowhere for me and a lot of other people (that I bet I'd actually really like if I could interact with them beyond this keyboard). Meanwhile as we obsess over pills...Some jerk be it a physician, a drug company exec, or an insurance company beaurocrat, either makes a decision that affects our lives or directly profits from our misery offering little return.
I wish that myself and my fellows (you all) were more free to participate in life and less hampered by ill moods and then further distracted by having to do so much of our own research. There's nothing wrong with trying to find help for a problem...in fact you're foolish not too. And being an informed consumer is also a good thing. But I've spent a lot of money and a lot of time educating physicians about theories. I've held out hope for a long time that the answer would come in a pill. Some help perhaps...The answer certainly not in this lifetime. It simply will not. I don't care anymore. I'm going on stark raving mad or not. Scared or depressed who cares. I'm getting mine... starting today. I'm no longer a victim of anything except the thoughts and preocupations I allow myself to induldge.
Posted by Phillipa on May 18, 2005, at 20:25:18
In reply to Re: Not that it matters...Just my opinion » SLS, posted by Mr.Scott on May 18, 2005, at 20:19:24
I'm so glad we are so kind to each other on this Board and solve our own problems for the most part. I'm so glad we don't pick apart each others posts and then head to Admin to solve our problems. And Mr. Scott what type of job do you have. You have me curious. You can Babblemail me if you don't want it public. I'll respect your privacy. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by 4WD on May 18, 2005, at 21:59:26
In reply to Re: Mr Scott » Paulbwell, posted by SLS on May 18, 2005, at 16:15:51
> > Folks here often seem to be too eager to try anything new--
>
> I would drink a glass of elephant urine t.i.d. if it would bring me into remission. That would be new. Of course, I would prefer to see how others do with it first before I take the plunge.
>
> Eager?
>
> Not really.
>
> However, I am desperate, and since "old" does not work, that leaves me with "new". Understand?
>
>
> - Scott
>Scott,
Please bring on the elephant urine. I will be glad to volunteer to be the first to try it if you think it might work.
Marsha
Posted by Phillipa on May 18, 2005, at 22:58:16
In reply to Re: Mr Scott » SLS, posted by 4WD on May 18, 2005, at 21:59:26
Somehow I don't think I could drink it! Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Paulbwell on May 19, 2005, at 4:02:33
In reply to Re: Mr Scott » Paulbwell, posted by SLS on May 18, 2005, at 16:15:51
> > Folks here often seem to be too eager to try anything new--
>
> "Of course, I would prefer to see how others do with it first before I take the plunge."That was my point,
and something i would take comfort in, having feedback first, if the situation wasn't critical of course.
Posted by Nickengland on May 19, 2005, at 8:41:01
In reply to Re: Not that it matters...Just my opinion » SLS, posted by Mr.Scott on May 18, 2005, at 20:19:24
Hello there,
From reading the further 2 posts you write I can now see and understand your frustrations.
I think some people maybe got slightly offended by your first post with the wording that you came across as you was judging the majority of the board by calling them *Neurotics* and *prscriptions drug addicts* etc.. Just seemed a little offensive you know? lol
Anyway after further reading of your other posts I can relate to your frustrations.
Here in england we don't have any adverts for prescription drugs and there isn't this "big bussiness push from the Pharmaceutical companies and hard seeling which obviously occurs in the states. Dont get me wrong though, I'm not putting america down or anything like that, as I much prefer your counrty to the uk lol. Also here the trend seems to be to not push a diagnosis of serious mental illness such as bipolar and ADD rather the oppisite, as in the states where there the trend maybe over-diagnose such illness. Either way the true care of the patient is not in the best interests with regards to proper treatment and best possible outcomes.
I notice when people from America talk about these big drug companies, sales reps and psychaitrists giving patients samples of drugs that have been given to them by the reps to promote their "product" that feels me with disgust. Its like the equivilent of a drug dealer giving samples of his new "stuff" to people. It doesn't seem quite right to me.
I've seen a Paxil advert which you have too. I remember it showed someone feeling very shy etc..then they take a paxil....and :D their all happy and smiling - this is the like the people happy in the coco-cola adverts?!...Theres something seriously not right about advertising psychiatric drugs, they kinda over-steped the mark. I guess most people take them with a pinch of salt but still they should not be shown in the public media like that as its drives a culture to believe that the answer for all problems is a *pill*, what next? cancer treatments having chemo - then they use the same coco-cola people dancing and being happy on a beach somewhere?!
Somewhere along the line things have got carried away with big brand name drugs and profits, forgetting about the actual illness themselves. People treat these drugs like a fashion acessory, because of the way the drugs seemed to be promoted just like the same way other products are such as proper "fashion acessorys" i.e brand clothes!
The drug companies seem to have manipulated things in such a way that people feel they can take these tablets and actually, if they take enough of a "combo" or whatever of the best brand they can find an actual "cure" - far from the truth as their is no cure.
Mental illness is the same all around the world for people of all cultures and races. The treatment is not. - Why?..because to be perfectly honest they don't understand these illness's, they don't know enough about them to really "cure" them just yet.
35 years ago, my mother was diagnosed with manic depression. The treatment = was 6 months in a mental hosptial and electirc shock treatment. When she was realsed she was given some valium for a few weeks, that was it. 1 year later she had a relapes of her original symtoms - the treatment exactly the same, 6 months hosptial and ECT, valium for afew weeks on release etc..
She then remained well for roughly a further 20 years..then a relapes of her original symtoms she had previously. The treatment = 6 weeks in hospital and was given lithuim. 16 years later she is still on the lithium and all is well.
So 6 months hospitalision and ECT, 35 years later "6 weeks hosptial" and lithium.
200 years ago she would have been locked up with chains to her hands and feet and left for dead - thats a fact.Progress is being made slowly. I inherited her illness and had the exact same symtoms at more a less the same age she did. This shows shows something genetic.
None of the medications or treatments today could have prevented me becoming ill. We are now in a time where theres alot of choice for various drug treatments. Is this a good thing?..in some ways yes, as people can find drugs which have less side-effects and perhaps more symtom control - That is the best you can achive! The least side effects and the most symtom control and more importantly using the LEAST drugs. As much as 1 drug relieves symtoms by working on your mental illness it also plays around with alot of other chemistry in your body and this is not good.
The frustration is no one can find a cure yet no matter how many "combos" or new drugs they take. In years to come this will improve, maybe not in our life time will there be a cure, in the same way the people with AIDS might not have a cure.
All I would say that some people on here get carried away into thinking they need to take lots of drugs, when really they dont need to, there just making bigger profits for the drug companies and tricking themselves into thinking they have multiple diagnosis. In time this kind of treatment and wacky thinking will seem as "out-of-touch" as people being locked up and left to die 200 years ago.
In the mean time I hope people can find the most amount of symtom relief, with the least amount of drugs ~ thats the best you can hope for in todays world.
Posted by SLS on May 19, 2005, at 8:47:37
In reply to Re: Not that it matters...Just my opinion » SLS, posted by Mr.Scott on May 18, 2005, at 20:19:24
> Although it's unclear from your post exactly how, I am sorry if I offended you.
I didn't feel personally offended by your post as it wasn't directed at me as an individual. However, I did find your post to be generally offensive in that it invalidated my thoughts and behaviors, and those of at least 85% of the other people posting here whom you deem as simply "neurotic" and without a true mental illness. I might add that, to the extent to which the old term "neurosis" might still exist in the vocabulary of those people whom were educated before the publication of the DSM III, I would think that any of these people might be offended as well.
> My frustration anyway... is hopefully clear by now.
Quite.
> Meanwhile as we obsess over pills...
There's that word again - "obsess". I always get the sense that this word is used in a slightly negative or pejorative manner. For me, I find that I am "focused" on my treatment and "vigilent" to achieve my goal of mental health. My life depends on this "obsession".
> Some jerk be it a physician, a drug company exec, or an insurance company beaurocrat, either makes a decision that affects our lives or directly profits from our misery offering little return.
Yes. However, I am still optimistic that much of the research being conducted in neuroscience and mental illness is still being supported by entities not so biased by capitalism. Unfortunately, not even the NIH has been immune from the evolution of conflicts of interest. Currently, this is being remediated by the setting of new policies. It would be great if it could be ascertained what percentage of studies conducted by universities are funded by or overseen by pharmaceutical companies. I really don't know. Nevertheless, I remain without cynicism and I believe that there are really smart people out there doing very smart things for reasons that are genuinely altruistic.
> I wish that myself and my fellows (you all) were more free to participate in life and less hampered by ill moods
> and then further distracted by having to do so much of our own research.
Unfortunately, it seems that your two wishes are mutually inclusive for most of the people here. You don't get to #1 without first accomplishing #2.
> There's nothing wrong with trying to find help for a problem...in fact you're foolish not too. And being an informed consumer is also a good thing.
You apparantly contradict yourself here and are forced to conclude that everyone's "obsessiveness" over pills is actually the playing of an active role in securing one's health and making life worth living.
Scott, I hope you reevaluate your alternatives once your level of anger and frustration abate. Perhaps this is a good time for you to be without medication and assess your need for it. Perhaps not. However, there is nothing wrong with seeking answers while indulging in life along the way.
- Scott
Posted by ed_uk on May 19, 2005, at 8:50:45
In reply to Mr Scott, posted by Nickengland on May 19, 2005, at 8:41:01
Hi Nick!
That was an interesting and thoughtful post :-)
Ed.
Posted by Nickengland on May 19, 2005, at 9:01:53
In reply to Re: Mr Scott » Nickengland, posted by ed_uk on May 19, 2005, at 8:50:45
Thanks Ed : )
As you can see I have way too much time on my hands to be writing posts that long LOL
Posted by MidnightBlue on May 19, 2005, at 11:13:27
In reply to Mr Scott, posted by Nickengland on May 19, 2005, at 8:41:01
I would just like to comment. My co-pay in the US is as much as $45 per drug per month. You can easily see where taking 3-4 drugs for a psych problem can add up quickly. This on top of other meds I need for other problems and there is NO LIMIT to the amount you must pay per month on co-pays. I really need to find one or two drugs that will help substantially.
And regarding drug ads in US. We have them for cancer treatment, too. Especially ones to boost your red cell count and energy when you are on chemo.
I ignore them ALL.
MidnightBlue
Posted by Ritch on May 19, 2005, at 12:05:56
In reply to Mr Scott, posted by Nickengland on May 19, 2005, at 8:41:01
>...In the mean time I hope people can find the most amount of symtom relief, with the least amount of drugs ~ thats the best you can hope for in todays world.
Nick, thanks for that post. It reflected how I feel about the whole thing nearly exactly or "spot-on" as I do. My grandmother was in hospital for ECT (for a few months in the '60's), got a family history too.
Posted by Paulbwell on May 19, 2005, at 16:46:11
In reply to Mr Scott, posted by Nickengland on May 19, 2005, at 8:41:01
> Hello there,
>
> From reading the further 2 posts you write I can now see and understand your frustrations.
>
> I think some people maybe got slightly offended by your first post with the wording that you came across as you was judging the majority of the board by calling them *Neurotics* and *prscriptions drug addicts* etc.. Just seemed a little offensive you know? lol
>
> Anyway after further reading of your other posts I can relate to your frustrations.
>
> Here in england we don't have any adverts for prescription drugs and there isn't this "big bussiness push from the Pharmaceutical companies and hard seeling which obviously occurs in the states. Dont get me wrong though, I'm not putting america down or anything like that, as I much prefer your counrty to the uk lol. Also here the trend seems to be to not push a diagnosis of serious mental illness such as bipolar and ADD rather the oppisite, as in the states where there the trend maybe over-diagnose such illness. Either way the true care of the patient is not in the best interests with regards to proper treatment and best possible outcomes.
>
> I notice when people from America talk about these big drug companies, sales reps and psychaitrists giving patients samples of drugs that have been given to them by the reps to promote their "product" that feels me with disgust. Its like the equivilent of a drug dealer giving samples of his new "stuff" to people. It doesn't seem quite right to me.
>
> I've seen a Paxil advert which you have too. I remember it showed someone feeling very shy etc..then they take a paxil....and :D their all happy and smiling - this is the like the people happy in the coco-cola adverts?!...Theres something seriously not right about advertising psychiatric drugs, they kinda over-steped the mark. I guess most people take them with a pinch of salt but still they should not be shown in the public media like that as its drives a culture to believe that the answer for all problems is a *pill*, what next? cancer treatments having chemo - then they use the same coco-cola people dancing and being happy on a beach somewhere?!
>
> Somewhere along the line things have got carried away with big brand name drugs and profits, forgetting about the actual illness themselves. People treat these drugs like a fashion acessory, because of the way the drugs seemed to be promoted just like the same way other products are such as proper "fashion acessorys" i.e brand clothes!
>
> The drug companies seem to have manipulated things in such a way that people feel they can take these tablets and actually, if they take enough of a "combo" or whatever of the best brand they can find an actual "cure" - far from the truth as their is no cure.
>
> Mental illness is the same all around the world for people of all cultures and races. The treatment is not. - Why?..because to be perfectly honest they don't understand these illness's, they don't know enough about them to really "cure" them just yet.
>
> 35 years ago, my mother was diagnosed with manic depression. The treatment = was 6 months in a mental hosptial and electirc shock treatment. When she was realsed she was given some valium for a few weeks, that was it. 1 year later she had a relapes of her original symtoms - the treatment exactly the same, 6 months hosptial and ECT, valium for afew weeks on release etc..
>
> She then remained well for roughly a further 20 years..then a relapes of her original symtoms she had previously. The treatment = 6 weeks in hospital and was given lithuim. 16 years later she is still on the lithium and all is well.
>
> So 6 months hospitalision and ECT, 35 years later "6 weeks hosptial" and lithium.
> 200 years ago she would have been locked up with chains to her hands and feet and left for dead - thats a fact.
>
> Progress is being made slowly. I inherited her illness and had the exact same symtoms at more a less the same age she did. This shows shows something genetic.
>
> None of the medications or treatments today could have prevented me becoming ill. We are now in a time where theres alot of choice for various drug treatments. Is this a good thing?..in some ways yes, as people can find drugs which have less side-effects and perhaps more symtom control - That is the best you can achive! The least side effects and the most symtom control and more importantly using the LEAST drugs. As much as 1 drug relieves symtoms by working on your mental illness it also plays around with alot of other chemistry in your body and this is not good.
>
> The frustration is no one can find a cure yet no matter how many "combos" or new drugs they take. In years to come this will improve, maybe not in our life time will there be a cure, in the same way the people with AIDS might not have a cure.
>
> All I would say that some people on here get carried away into thinking they need to take lots of drugs, when really they dont need to, there just making bigger profits for the drug companies and tricking themselves into thinking they have multiple diagnosis. In time this kind of treatment and wacky thinking will seem as "out-of-touch" as people being locked up and left to die 200 years ago.
>
> In the mean time I hope people can find the most amount of symtom relief, with the least amount of drugs ~ thats the best you can hope for in todays world.^WORD-NICK^
Posted by vivi on May 19, 2005, at 19:57:48
In reply to Not that it matters...Just my opinion, posted by Mr.Scott on May 18, 2005, at 2:47:19
> Maybe 15% of the people posting here actually have a real psychiatric problem. Of that group maybe half will get relief. Everyone else is simply neurotic except that these days flatulence can be somehow interpreted as bipolar disorder or ADHD.
>
> The rest are either a) prescription drug addicts who posibly don't even recognize it, or b)simply bored, unhappy, or otherwise normally upset with their lives and overmedicated by pompous uncaring *sshole doctors in a pharmaceutically driven society. The end result of which is a worsening of their sense of helplessness.
>
> My advice (to myself especially)...find a hobby instead of obsessing about ineffectual drugs. You've tried it all! Stop wasting your time & money. Go rob a bank or something...at least you'll make the evening news...
>
> How did you get 15% I think it's beneficial that we can post our concerns and get feedback from other people that are in the same situation. It's horrible when you feel like your the only one that feels alone.
Posted by Nickengland on May 20, 2005, at 7:55:23
In reply to Re: Mr Scott » Nickengland, posted by Paulbwell on May 19, 2005, at 16:46:11
> WORD-NICKRESPECT-PAUL ;-) lol
Posted by Nickengland on May 20, 2005, at 7:58:07
In reply to Re: Mr Scott » Nickengland, posted by MidnightBlue on May 19, 2005, at 11:13:27
lol..omg!!..I can't believe you have them for cancer too!..I was just joking there, i had no idea.
Good that you ignore them.
I hope your able to reduce your payments, good luck with that..
Kind regards
Nick
Posted by Nickengland on May 20, 2005, at 8:04:17
In reply to Re: Mr Scott » Nickengland, posted by Ritch on May 19, 2005, at 12:05:56
Thanks Ritch, its always to good see "out-side" the box and take a step back to put things into perspective..it made me feel good getting that of my chest.
The genetic link at least offers hope for future more effective treatments once the knowledge is gained.
Who knows what will become of this genetic link in the future??..imagine vaccines for children who would be considered "high risk" for getting such illness, that would be great...even better if would could live to see something like that in our lifetime.
Posted by Mr.Scott on May 20, 2005, at 11:52:48
In reply to Mr Scott, posted by Nickengland on May 19, 2005, at 8:41:01
Hey NG (and everyone else)-
I apologize if I was offensive. Sometimes I forget I'm posting messages on a board with sensitive people (myself included.) And believe it or not I can get crabby once in a while. Allright maybe 80% of us are actually ill. Thats not my point though.
My point is that I feel frustrated that we often get drug dependent without full remission and other side effects, and that we spend so much time obsessing about "not being well". At least I do! I'm working with my psychologist to set limits on how much time I spend researching and thinking about my mental health because it is over the top. I'm using an egg timerwhen online, and also trying to delay action when I have an urge to go online or pop into the bookstore. I'm overly narcisistic and self absorbed because I'm in discomfort, but it could be so much worse.
Also my psychiatrist is one of the most well respected physicians in the field in a very large city, and my attempts to micromanage or try to find what he's missing really hasn't helped me any.
If I could just take the damn pills (so long as they don't cause obnoxious side effects)...get whatever help I can get there without unrealistic expectations, and let him do his job while I focus on what I do have control over I'd be much better for it.
The whole big business aspect of healthcare, direct to patient advertising, and often misleading information regarding side-effects, efficacy, dependence, and the like frankly "piss me off."
And finally I realize everyone here has some level of discomfort or they would be here. I'll try to behave in the future, and remember how good things really are instead of how good they aren't...but I guess I just blew my stack.
Sorry,
Scott
Posted by 4WD on May 20, 2005, at 14:54:49
In reply to Re: Mr Scott » Nickengland, posted by Mr.Scott on May 20, 2005, at 11:52:48
>
> My point is that I feel frustrated that we often get drug dependent without full remission and other side effects, and that we spend so much time obsessing about "not being well". At least I do! I'm working with my psychologist to set limits on how much time I spend researching and thinking about my mental health because it is over the top. I'm using an egg timerwhen online, and also trying to delay action when I have an urge to go online or pop into the bookstore. I'm overly narcisistic and self absorbed because I'm in discomfort, but it could be so much worse.
Exactly on the mark. I wish I could quit focusing so much on "what is wrong with me?" and quit trying so hard to figure it out for myself. I guess I just feel the minute I leave my pdoc's office, I'm out of his thoughts until my next visit. I mean, he doesn't sit there and ponder what might be the problem, what might work best for me; he doesn't think about "x drug worked for this aspect and y drug worked for that aspect, thus she has a problem with z autoreceptor." So I feel like I'm the only one willing to put that much effort into trying to get well. To them, the docs, we're just one patient in a long line. If they gave half an hour's thought per week to each of us, they wouldn't have time to see patients at all.
>
> Also my psychiatrist is one of the most well respected physicians in the field in a very large city, and my attempts to micromanage or try to find what he's missing really hasn't helped me any.Me either. But I don't think he's giving any thought to what he might be missing, so who's gonna do it? At least my inquiries got me to an endocrinologist, so maybe I'm a step closer to an answer. Even if there's not a solution, at least an understanding would make it a little more bearable.
>
> If I could just take the damn pills (so long as they don't cause obnoxious side effects)...get whatever help I can get there without unrealistic expectations, and let him do his job while I focus on what I do have control over I'd be much better for it.
>
We all would. That's the thing, though, about depression and anxiety. That's a symptom of the disease. Obsession. Worry. Trying to control. And most of us are desperate or we wouldn't be here. I spend some time here just to keep from thinking about how scared I am. I can see, though, that that might be counterproductive. It keeps me in the cycle. But everything keeps me in the cycle. I go for a walk to be less scared. When I get back, I check to see if I'm less scared. See? And I just can't seem to help it.
>
> And finally I realize everyone here has some level of discomfort or they would be here. I'll try to behave in the future, and remember how good things really are instead of how good they aren't...but I guess I just blew my stack.It was probably good for you. Since you're trying to stop second guessing your doc, you probably have some steam built up that you'd really like to direct at him. (You wouldn't be second guessing him if you weren't feeling like he wasn't doing the best he could for you.)= frustration and anger.
Marsha
Posted by Phillipa on May 20, 2005, at 17:56:15
In reply to Re: Mr Scott » Mr.Scott, posted by 4WD on May 20, 2005, at 14:54:49
Boy, we all are alike in some ways aren't we? Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Nickengland on November 18, 2005, at 7:35:54
In reply to Re: Not that it matters...Just my opinion » Mr.Scott, posted by Ritch on May 18, 2005, at 12:32:05
Ritch - When he was around always posted Interesting things. This post I remember well from afew months back..
>I agree with many of the things that you say and feel similar frustration. It *is* depressing how much money is spent on drug marketing and pushing "pharmaceutical cosmetics" and not on the SCIENCE of solving the problems of mental illnesses. We ARE at the mercy of people whose interests are not our own. If they took the money they spent on TV ADS and put it into OBJECTIVE research we would all be a lot better off. I think we would all be a lot happier of the focus of activity shifted from BUSINESS to SCIENCE. I think RX drug ads should be banned. Perhaps the med obsessiveness you talk about would decline considerably and we could perhaps start to see a break in the media shitstorm.
Hope Ritch is doing well.
Kind regards
Nick
This is the end of the thread.
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