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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by sabre on April 1, 2005, at 16:47:12
In reply to Re: I got up at 5pm..... » ed_uk, posted by TamaraJ on April 1, 2005, at 16:38:12
Hi Ed
I'm sorry that you are going through this.
I feel nervous suggesting this because it probably sounds like a superficial response to a real problem and it is coming from someone who is staring at the ceiling by 5am all wired and
ready to run out into the dark.Try setting a heavy duty alarm so you sleep for a strict 7-8 hrs and then when you get up go for a walk. Nothing fancy...just 15-20 minutes or less if you can't manage that.
I know I harp about exercise but I believe it couldn't hurt??
Brains are trainable, aren't they?
Sabre
Posted by Phillipa on April 1, 2005, at 17:19:12
In reply to Re: I got up at 5pm....., posted by sabre on April 1, 2005, at 16:47:12
Hi Ed! Looks like we have the totally different problem. After your E-mails about the breathing etc. I was afraid to fall asleep. So, I was awake all night basically. I did fall asleep around 5 am for about an hour. How about we switch places for about a week? I was so touched by your concern for me yesterday. You are truly a caring person, and I don't blame you for wanting to sleep. If there's nothing to do it's just plain boring and dreaming can be so much fun sometimes. Fondly, Phillipa, J OOO
Posted by Maxime on April 1, 2005, at 17:27:22
In reply to Re: I got up at 5pm..... » Maxime, posted by ed_uk on April 1, 2005, at 16:31:05
I'll meet you in France and translate for you! Of course they will be disgusted by my Quebecois French! C'est la vie!
Actually I will meet in you London because I need to buy some new Doc Martens (plaid would be cool) and I need to see a musical. Then we can go to France. :)
Maxime
> Hi Maxi!
>
> >But there people here from the UK who are on MAOIs. How did they get their doctor to prescribe them?
>
> I don't know, I've only come across one person in the UK who was prescribed Nardil. I've never heard of anyone in the UK being prescribed Parnate.
>
> >Could you not go over to France and see a doctor there?
>
> It would be very difficult. I can't speak French.
>
> Ed xxx
>
> PS. I think I'll have to reply to your email tomorrow I'm afraid, I'm going to have to go to bed soon!
Posted by Nickengland on April 1, 2005, at 17:27:44
In reply to Re: I got up at 5pm....., posted by sabre on April 1, 2005, at 16:47:12
Hi Ed,
Sorry to hear your going through abit of a bad time mate.
I really know how you feel about hating england and the way the doctors work here.
Have you ever tried ginseng from holland and barrett? I used it a while back and found it great for giving me energy, so much so that I couldn't sleep properly on korean ginseng.
The one I liked best though was the siberean (from holland and barrett) Its £10 for 100 tablets, and you can take up to 3 a day. I found that stuff great for mental energy and libdo ; )..Also read somewhere that its a weak MAOI?? - I'd definately recommend that, at least it may help you in the short term.
I read that your finding out about neurontin and sexual side effects, if you take that ginseng it should definately help with sexual problems.
I have resorted once, just because of waiting lists etc.. and was sick of time wasting when wanting to try a drug, so I know its wrong and im not too sure on the leagal status over here but, I baught drugs from an online pharmacy and had no problems - To cut a long story short it saved me 6 weeks of waiting lists. Just a thought, but obviously thats not the "standard way" to go about it.
Hope you'll feel better soon and can work something out.Kind regards
Nick
Posted by ed_uk on April 1, 2005, at 18:32:24
In reply to Re: I got up at 5pm..... » ed_uk, posted by Maxime on April 1, 2005, at 17:27:22
Hi Maxi,
I just sent you an email xxxxxxxxx
Posted by ed_uk on April 1, 2005, at 18:32:57
In reply to Re: I got up at 5pm....., posted by ed_uk on April 1, 2005, at 18:32:24
Posted by Slinky on April 1, 2005, at 20:07:59
In reply to I got up at 5pm....., posted by ed_uk on April 1, 2005, at 14:05:40
,,I've had this sleeping pattern for eons..it's become a way of life for me..well, no life really.
I'm passed normality.
Good luck with MAIOS.~~Slinky
Posted by zeugma on April 1, 2005, at 21:15:23
In reply to I got up at 5pm....., posted by ed_uk on April 1, 2005, at 14:05:40
Hi ed,
It might help to take a sedating AD like trazodone at the same time every night. This way you'll get more sleep at night. I believe that sleep during the day is a lot less restorative than sleep at night. It will only lessen the lethargy a little, but it will help normalize the circadian cycle.
I've slept for 24 hours at a time on several occasions. There's nothing weirder than having an entire day go by without a single waking moment.
Also, you can take trazodone with an MAOI.
-z
Posted by KaraS on April 1, 2005, at 21:26:08
In reply to I got up at 5pm....., posted by ed_uk on April 1, 2005, at 14:05:40
Dear Ed,
So sorry to hear about your struggle. I know what it's like to fight to get out of bed each day - that horrible moment when you wake up and realize where you are and what your situation is. It's the worst. I am better off when I am forced to get up for some reason. When I sleep longer than 8 hours I feel so much more depressed and then the cycle continues downward - but then I'm sure you know all about that. I wish you could come to the U.S. for treatment. Is there any chance you could continue your studies here? We'd love to have you! (There aren't nearly enough funny, smart, caring people such as yourself here.)
Kara
Posted by Spriggy on April 1, 2005, at 21:48:42
In reply to Re: Above post to Maxime (nm), posted by ed_uk on April 1, 2005, at 18:32:57
If push comes to shove and you want your doctor's attention to see you REALLY need something ASAP. I think I have found the magic recipe.
Take off all your clothes and run through the streets of your town totally naked.
THEN, after the police have arrested you, explain what happened to your doctor and THEN ask for a specific medicine to treat your condition.
You might think I'm joking but I know for a fact it works.
Posted by Sarah T. on April 2, 2005, at 0:32:40
In reply to I got up at 5pm....., posted by ed_uk on April 1, 2005, at 14:05:40
Hi Ed,
I sympathize with you completely. I have extraordinary difficulty with my circadian rhythms. I have actually wished I could visit England or some place else in Europe for a few weeks. Then, when I returned to the U.S., my inner clock would be 6 or more hours ahead. Of course, the next challenge would be staying on that schedule, but I figure I'd deal with that when the time came.
From your post, I couldn't quite figure out what medicines you're on now. Are your current medications exacerbating your sleep/wake difficulties? You mentioned that you want to take an MAOI. Have you ever been on an MAOI before?
Do you have Daylight Savings Time in the U.K.? This weekend (at 2 a.m. Sunday morning, April 3rd), most of the states in the U.S. will change to Daylight Savings Time. We have to set our clocks one hour ahead, which means we lose an hour of sleep. We'll get that hour back next fall when we return to Standard Time, but that's no consolation now. I don't know how I'm going to get up an hour earlier. I can barely get out of bed an hour later! I'm thinking about trying melatonin in another desperate effort to change my circadian clock, but I'm afraid it will make me more depressed.
I do hope you had some good dreams during those sixteen hours of sleep. Sometimes dreaming is fun, sort of like going to the movies!
You're NOT alone, Ed.
Posted by ed_uk on April 2, 2005, at 5:35:33
In reply to Re: I got up at 5pm...I sorta know how you feel » ed_uk, posted by Slinky on April 1, 2005, at 20:07:59
Hi!
>I'm passed normality.
Me too :-S
Regards,
Ed.
Posted by ed_uk on April 2, 2005, at 5:40:21
In reply to Re: I got up at 5pm..... » ed_uk, posted by zeugma on April 1, 2005, at 21:15:23
Hi Z!
>It might help to take a sedating AD like trazodone at the same time every night. This way you'll get more sleep at night.
I think you could be right but trazodone often causes a 'hangover' and makes it difficult to wake up in the morning- I'd be worried about that happening to me. I could ask for Provigil but I'm pretty sure my pdoc wouldn't even consider it. All 'stimulants' are seen as being the 'Devil's drugs' here, everything gets 'treated' with Effexor.
>I've slept for 24 hours at a time on several occasions.
At the most, I've probably slept about 19hrs, this was not uncommon when I was depressed.
Kind regards,
Ed.
Posted by ed_uk on April 2, 2005, at 5:41:13
In reply to Re: I got up at 5pm..... » ed_uk, posted by KaraS on April 1, 2005, at 21:26:08
Hi Kara!
Thank you for your kind words :-)
Ed xx
Posted by ed_uk on April 2, 2005, at 5:42:24
In reply to hey ED... try this, posted by Spriggy on April 1, 2005, at 21:48:42
LOL Spriggy it's true- but I'd get an antipsychotic, not an MAOI!!
Ed x
Posted by ed_uk on April 2, 2005, at 5:46:00
In reply to Re: I got up at 5pm..... » ed_uk, posted by Sarah T. on April 2, 2005, at 0:32:40
Hi Sarah!
Thank you for your kind words :-)
>From your post, I couldn't quite figure out what medicines you're on now. Are your current medications exacerbating your sleep/wake difficulties? You mentioned that you want to take an MAOI. Have you ever been on an MAOI before?
I'm just on lofepramine 140mg/day, it doesn't really affect my sleeping at all. I've taken moclobemide (Manerix) but it didn't help, my pdoc wouldn't prescribe a 'proper' MAOI, he'd never prescribed one before and he wasn't going to start with me!
>Do you have Daylight Savings Time in the U.K.?
Oh yes, we had to put the clocks forward! YUCK.
Kind regards,
Ed.
Posted by TamaraJ on April 2, 2005, at 10:11:32
In reply to Re: I got up at 5pm..... » zeugma, posted by ed_uk on April 2, 2005, at 5:40:21
Hi Ed,
> I think you could be right but trazodone often causes a 'hangover' and makes it difficult to wake up in the morning- I'd be worried about that happening to me.
>
~~ FWIW, I tried Trazadone last spring, and the 'hangover' was terrible for me. I was only taking 25mg, which I took as early as about 10pm. Even on that low dose, I couldn't function before noon the next day! I would just keep fading in and out of sleep all morning. And, even after the effects wore off, I was sluggish, lethargic and down for the remainder of the day. That being said, my body may well have adjusted to the effects of the traz after having taken it for a longer period of time, but I wasn't willing to go through that horrid hangover effect any longer.You might want to talk to Larry about Melatonin, if you can get it over the counter in the UK. I think ome people do quite well using it to regulate their sleep cycles.
Take care Ed.
All the best,
Tamara
Posted by ed_uk on April 2, 2005, at 11:13:39
In reply to Re: I got up at 5pm..... » ed_uk, posted by TamaraJ on April 2, 2005, at 10:11:32
Hi Tamara!
>You might want to talk to Larry about Melatonin, if you can get it over the counter in the UK. I think ome people do quite well using it to regulate their sleep cycles.
You could be right, it might help :-) It's a shame that it's not available over the counter here. It's not approved in the UK so doctors rarely prescribe it.
Ed xxxxxxxxx
Posted by Sarah T. on April 2, 2005, at 13:05:06
In reply to Re: I got up at 5pm...I sorta know how you feel » ed_uk, posted by Slinky on April 1, 2005, at 20:07:59
> ,,> I'm passed normality.
>> ~~SlinkySlinky, that means you're supra-normal!
Posted by Bob on April 2, 2005, at 13:55:16
In reply to Re: I got up at 5pm..... » TamaraJ, posted by ed_uk on April 2, 2005, at 11:13:39
I have always wondered about whether others out there were suffering from the same ridiculous sleep cycle problems I have been dealing with for so many, many years. Any medecine with an SRI component in it eventually causes me to sleep a minimum of 10 hours, and many times 15, 16, 18, etc. To me, it's always been the worst feeling in the world to wake up so late and realize you've missed the entire day. What's even more infuriating is to realize that most people don't get this problem when they take these meds. The worse one of all for me was Effexor. Then of course, when I tried to get off, the withdrawl practically crushed me. I tried all kinds of ways to keep myself awake, including stimulants, melatonin, 5-HTP, and other compounds. Some of them worked for a little while (melatonin and stimulants), but evenutally they all faded out, and I was left sleeping 15 or so hours per day. I don't think I've ever come across one doctor or fellow patient who was able to help me with this. Ironically, one day on this board, I saw a thread about MAOIs where the poster claimed they made him sleep all the time. That was disheartening.
Bob
Posted by ed_uk on April 2, 2005, at 14:34:23
In reply to Re: I got up at 5pm..... » ed_uk, posted by Bob on April 2, 2005, at 13:55:16
Hi Bob!
>Ironically, one day on this board, I saw a thread about MAOIs where the poster claimed they made him sleep all the time.
Although MAOIs *can* cause people to sleep excessively, they can also reduce hypersomnia in other people. Do you think you'll try one? Perhaps Parnate.
Ed.
Posted by Bob on April 2, 2005, at 14:53:20
In reply to Re: I got up at 5pm..... » Bob, posted by ed_uk on April 2, 2005, at 14:34:23
> Hi Bob!
>
> >Ironically, one day on this board, I saw a thread about MAOIs where the poster claimed they made him sleep all the time.
>
> Although MAOIs *can* cause people to sleep excessively, they can also reduce hypersomnia in other people. Do you think you'll try one? Perhaps Parnate.
>
> Ed.I don't know what I'll do next. Just about everything I've tried in my life has been a disaster, including between 35 and 40 psychoactives. Believe it or not, I'm currently near the end of a cycle of ECT treatments, for the first time ever. I don't have a lot of confidence in it right now. The day of the treatments (at least the first part) I feel great, and practically cured. Then the days after are difficult, with anxious depression, and confusion. I'm losing faith.
The only major class of meds I've never tried are MAOIs, but I am so prone to side effects, and so sensitive to withdrawl, that I'm not sure it wouldn't be my worst experience to date. I can't really rule anything out, but I'm not looking foward to it, anyway.
I can't believe how much this condition sucks.
Posted by ed_uk on April 2, 2005, at 15:08:48
In reply to Re: I got up at 5pm..... » ed_uk, posted by Bob on April 2, 2005, at 14:53:20
Hello Bob,
I'm sorry to hear that the ECT isn't providing you with any sustained benefits.
>The only major class of meds I've never tried are MAOIs, but I am so prone to side effects, and so sensitive to withdrawl, that I'm not sure it wouldn't be my worst experience to date.
Many people respond to MAOIs after nothing else has helped, several people on this board have found that. Tricyclic antidepressants are often ineffective for people with hypersomnia, MAOIs can work well in these people. Please don't give up.
Kind regards,
Ed.
Posted by TamaraJ on April 2, 2005, at 18:03:32
In reply to Re: I got up at 5pm..... » TamaraJ, posted by ed_uk on April 2, 2005, at 11:13:39
> Hi Ed!
>
> You could be right, it might help :-) It's a shame that it's not available over the counter here. It's not approved in the UK so doctors rarely prescribe it.
>
~~ If you wanted to try it, perhaps you could order from an on-line, natural supplements supplier. Or is it restricted for import into the UK and can only be prescribed by a physician?Also, I know you are aware of the research done on using thyroid meds to augment ADs. Perhaps that is something that your pdoc might consider, if you can make a strong enough argument for a trial (there seems to be quite a bit of research to substantiate its effectiveness as an augmenting agent). Anyway, I am just including the following website because it seems to have a lot of info on studies done on augmenting with thyroid meds.
http://www.modern-psychiatry.com/thyroid.htm
Take care,Tamara
xxx
Posted by ed_uk on April 2, 2005, at 18:30:11
In reply to Re: I got up at 5pm..... » ed_uk, posted by TamaraJ on April 2, 2005, at 18:03:32
Hi Tamara!
>Or is it restricted for import into the UK and can only be prescribed by a physician?
Yes, I think it's restricted. I could import it anyway though, I very much doubt I would get into trouble. Thank you for the suggestion :-)
> Perhaps that is something that your pdoc might consider........
I will ask at my next appointment- in a couple of weeks. Thank you for the link, it was very good. Just out of curiousity, do you still have dessicated thyroid in Canada? It hasn't been available in the UK for decades! I think they call it 'Armour' in the US but I could be wrong.
Ed xxxx
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