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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by ixus on March 27, 2005, at 7:15:47
I know this subject has been discussed many times on the forum, but the number of members is rising up so we have plenty of new contributors here.
Please state your original problems and symptoms which can be alleviated by using those two MAOIs. Direct comparisons very welcome!
/ixus
Posted by ixus on March 27, 2005, at 7:27:07
In reply to Parnate vs Nardil, posted by ixus on March 27, 2005, at 7:15:47
Find below my experience with Parnate:
My history:
-anxiety (started very early when I was a child)
-tiredness, SP, hypersomnia,lack of concentration(started in early andolescent)
-depression (dysthymia with atypical features, some OCD)Parnate has helped me with concentration and hypersomnia dramatically. It also alleviates depression. The best dosage is between 20 and 40 mg. Below no effect, above agitation.
However I see little effect on anxiety and OCD. This is even worse over 40 mg.
/ixus
Posted by Mr.Scott on March 28, 2005, at 2:15:24
In reply to Re: Parnate, posted by ixus on March 27, 2005, at 7:27:07
Sounds about right.
Parnate is very much like amphetamine, wheras nardil is more akin to an amphetamine-ssri-anticonvulsant combo.Parnate actually turns into amphetamine in the body. It influences catecholamines moreso than serotonin or GABA. Phelezine hits all of them. Too bad for me it pooped out and left only side effects in it's wake. Parnate was very stimulating.
Currently I'm trying to re-create the effects using a variety of individual chemicals including amphetamine, ssri, anticonvulsant. I'll report back if I ever find the right combo!
Scott
Posted by ed_uk on March 28, 2005, at 7:08:33
In reply to Re: Parnate » ixus, posted by Mr.Scott on March 28, 2005, at 2:15:24
Hi Scott!
>Parnate actually turns into amphetamine in the body.
AFAIK, this has turned out not to be the case now that modern analytical methods have been used.
Regards,
Ed.
Posted by willyee on March 29, 2005, at 15:28:51
In reply to Parnate vs Nardil, posted by ixus on March 27, 2005, at 7:15:47
I dont think youll be able to compare them now,mainly ecause most nardil users,veterans who used it for years are not responding to it due to the formulation change.
There is an entire group devoted on this matter,trying to get back the old nardil,as for the new one it seems almost every user (few hundred) on the group agrees the new nardil is totaly ineffective,in fact most of them have gotten off to go on parnate or something else until and if they manage to correct the formulation process.
The issue of amhpetmine with parnate is debated,either way its not very much and no one believes its the drugs therputic action.It has a higher affinity for dopamine which may be why some respond very well.
Nardil has a metabolite that increases gaba,however remeber gaba isnt the key for everyone and is somtimes overated.Pure gaba increase like with neurontion etc can worsen some peoples depression.Benzos do a lot more than increase gaba,and nardil more likly wont replace the need for a benzo if u use one.
I personaly wanted to give nardil a run after exhausting parnates benifits,however i had the new pill and it did not work,worsened my symptoms,i was relieved to see hundreds of veterns of the drug feel the same way,knowing i havent really tried it,and knowing it MIGHT come back gives me a option in the future,options are a depressives best friend!
Main things i took in from the old nardil and parnate were..
parnate; Initial fast acting,for some like myself with in the first 48 hrs,this could be a plus for someone in really really bad shape who needs something to work yesterday.Parnate is also stimulating at first,in a book i have it is talked about as being a smart drug along with deprenyl.This can possably help some with minor adhd.Parnate also is unlikely to cause any erectile disturbances,in fact it can make you want it more.Last parnate seems to be forgiving for most when augmented.
Negative parnate; Just as its fast acting,it for me seems to clear just as fast.I actualy feel sometimes like a morning dose is comptly gone and feel no effect what so ever,most people agree parnate is most effetive with contoius doses through the day.This is annoying.
Parnate also is horrid on sleep,and only a lucky few will not devolp bad insomnia.Parnate also is notrious for poop out,leaving u with a fading memory of how great it once worked.Parnate is also not nice on morning anxiety the next day.I can think of a lot more but i think this is enough.
Nardil postive: The old nardil was touted as a gold standerd.Unlike parnate it took a while to build up in your system,however unlike parnate is dident seem to quit as fast and require such contnoius erract dosing.It could be more maintinace dosed.Nardil prob due to its gaba effects did seem to have more social benifits to it than parnate,parnate doesent really make you feel the urge to interact with others,just allows u too,nardil supposedly did encrouage it.
Nardil negative: Nardil is active longer,so its not as forgiving with foods or augmentation as parnate is.Nardil seemed to carry weight gain as well.Also for some if nardil dident work it actualy worsened the depression.
I would like to try nardil myself and wait for the word on the old formualtion comming back.Parnate is just requiring too much work now and not providing nearly the results it once did.
P.S Liquid deprenyl with klonopin seem to have a synergy and provided relief for me at a time.Deprenyl alone should hardly ever be used unless you want to be a maniac shaking hornball.With klonopin however,it was very relaxing.Also i forgot to mention,the fact that parnate needs to be dosed a few times,and seems to clear a lot,actualy showed true i rember reading in a few places that they believe parnate is not a ir-reversable maoi,but more so a revarsable one.This varies however at doseage.It would make sense to me as it feels that way.
Nardil by all means is a ir-reversable one.In the long run id rather have one like nardil where i dont have to keep taking it,i know moclicmide is also reversable and that too needs coninoust dosing through the day.
Posted by ixus on March 30, 2005, at 0:58:39
In reply to Re: Parnate vs Nardil, posted by willyee on March 29, 2005, at 15:28:51
I have similar feeling regarding Parnate. I have also tried selegiline which was the first "antidepressant" that helped me, but it produced more anxiety though. I believe these two drugs can be similar. I would say that selegiline is more stimulating while tranylcypromine possesses more antidepressant properties.
Thanks for your input!
/ixus
Posted by KaraS on March 30, 2005, at 1:41:17
In reply to Re: Parnate vs Nardil, posted by willyee on March 29, 2005, at 15:28:51
> Nardil negative: Nardil is active longer,so its not as forgiving with foods or augmentation as parnate is.
I've read that Nardil is more forgiving than Parnate as far as tyramine problems.
Posted by Ron Hill on March 31, 2005, at 17:02:13
In reply to Re: Parnate vs Nardil, posted by willyee on March 29, 2005, at 15:28:51
> Deprenyl alone should hardly ever be used unless you want to be a maniac shaking hornball.
--------------Willyee,
I'm just checking for understanding. Are you saying that the increased sex drive caused by deprenyl is bad enough to warrant the discontinuation of the medication? What other problems did you have with deprenyl. What dosage did you take?
I am considering a 5 mg/day trial of deprenyl as a possible treatment for my atypical depression symptoms (low motivation, low energy, hypersomnia, etc.).
I appreciate any and all feedback.
-- Ron
BP II and OCPD
600 mg/day Lithobid
900 mg/day Trileptal
50 mg/day Lamictal (level limited by rash)
5 mg every other day of Adderall XR as tx for atypical depressive symptoms; more frequent use causes "pstim burnout" symptoms.
Note: If I add deprenyl, I plan to discontinue Adderall XR.
Posted by theo on March 31, 2005, at 19:48:24
In reply to Re: Selegiline » willyee, posted by Ron Hill on March 31, 2005, at 17:02:13
> > Deprenyl alone should hardly ever be used unless you want to be a maniac shaking hornball.
> --------------
>
> Willyee,
>
> I'm just checking for understanding. Are you saying that the increased sex drive caused by deprenyl is bad enough to warrant the discontinuation of the medication? What other problems did you have with deprenyl. What dosage did you take?
>
> I am considering a 5 mg/day trial of deprenyl as a possible treatment for my atypical depression symptoms (low motivation, low energy, hypersomnia, etc.).
>
> I appreciate any and all feedback.
>
> -- Ron
>
> BP II and OCPD
>
> 600 mg/day Lithobid
>
> 900 mg/day Trileptal
>
> 50 mg/day Lamictal (level limited by rash)
>
> 5 mg every other day of Adderall XR as tx for atypical depressive symptoms; more frequent use causes "pstim burnout" symptoms.
>
> Note: If I add deprenyl, I plan to discontinue Adderall XR.
>Why do you plan to discontinue Adderall XR?
Posted by Ron Hill on April 1, 2005, at 0:39:36
In reply to Re: Selegiline » Ron Hill, posted by theo on March 31, 2005, at 19:48:24
> Why do you plan to discontinue Adderall XR?
------------
Hi Theo,I have three main reservations regarding my use of a pstim on a long-term basis:
1. A phenomenon I call "pstim induced burnout". When I take even a moderate dosage of a pstim over a relatively short period of time, I experience severe burnout (i.e.; EXTREME fatigue, zapped of all energy, etc.).
2. Tolerance (i.e.; higher and higher dosages are required over time to achieve the same level of benefit). Adderall is notorious for its tolerance tendencies and in the short three months that I have been taking it, I find myself continually needing to increase the dosage. [Having said that, it should be noted that I am taking a VERY small dosage of Adderall XR (currently 5 mg every other day)]
3. pstim poop-out. After an extended period of use, the pstim simply stops working no matter how much I take. When this happens I’m left on the side of the road in a miserable heap, stuck in a DEEP atypical depression with no way to get out.
Therefore, I am considering a trial of Selegiline.
Posted by willyee on April 1, 2005, at 18:55:34
In reply to Re: Selegiline » willyee, posted by Ron Hill on March 31, 2005, at 17:02:13
> > Deprenyl alone should hardly ever be used unless you want to be a maniac shaking hornball.
> --------------
>
> Willyee,
>
> I'm just checking for understanding. Are you saying that the increased sex drive caused by deprenyl is bad enough to warrant the discontinuation of the medication? What other problems did you have with deprenyl. What dosage did you take?
>
> I am considering a 5 mg/day trial of deprenyl as a possible treatment for my atypical depression symptoms (low motivation, low energy, hypersomnia, etc.).
>
> I appreciate any and all feedback.
>
> -- Ron
>
> BP II and OCPD
>
> 600 mg/day Lithobid
>
> 900 mg/day Trileptal
>
> 50 mg/day Lamictal (level limited by rash)
>
> 5 mg every other day of Adderall XR as tx for atypical depressive symptoms; more frequent use causes "pstim burnout" symptoms.
>
> Note: If I add deprenyl, I plan to discontinue Adderall XR.
For me Deprenyl was like parnate in a sense because it was in consistent for me.It definatly is capable of providing anti-depressant effects,however for some it isnt that simple.For me taking it alone would cause anxiety/mind racing/agigtation etc.
And yess,when it did caused anxiety there was usualy a strong sex drive with it,not a pleaseant one because the anxiety is bad at this point,so its just a extra annoyance to the anxiety,i remeber laying in bad tossign and turning due to the anxiety and sex craving.
Having said that,on a few occasions where i had taken substantial amounts of klonopin,a dose of deprenyl counteracted the depression of the klonopin,as well as synergized with it and provded a great anti depressant feeling.
I also expereianced this with high dose GHB,and a time or too when i had extreme fatique and depression while taking parnate a drop or so of deprenyl helped change that.
So to make it short,(too late) i best used deprenyl as a side med taken occasionaly when i felt it would help.And in those cases it mostly did.
Taking it alone however was not an option,the negative effects ,the anxiety,insomnia,agitation,high sex drive,social avoidance,etc comes on rapidly and is a horrable one.
This of course is my results,i never had a sex drive problem on any med,i work out a lot and always seem to be a bag of hormones and ragining adrenaline and hyperactivtity,so my results with it might not be true for everyone.
I do know unlike most medication,deprenyl is in a class of a minor few that can provide true anti-depressant effects.I cant say the same for a single ssri,and i took em all!
>
Posted by Ron Hill on April 1, 2005, at 20:57:15
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by willyee on April 1, 2005, at 18:55:34
Willyee,
Thank you for taking the time to write in detail regarding your response to Selegiline (deprenyl). I greatly appreciate it!!
-- Ron
Posted by Ron Hill on April 1, 2005, at 21:52:07
In reply to Re: Selegiline » willyee, posted by Ron Hill on March 31, 2005, at 17:02:13
All pbabblers (i.e.; you),
If you have taken Selegiline (l-deprenyl, Selepryl, Zelepar, Xilopar, etc), I'd love to hear about your anecdotal response to the medication.
I have begun to comb through the archives, and so far I have found posts from the following people who have tried Selegiline (listed in alphabetical order): Ame Sans Vie, Elroy, Ixus, KaraS, Ktemene, Larry Hoover, Roland, Ted Brosnan, and Willyee (in this thread). I'd love to get an update from these people and I'd love to hear from others who have taken Selegiline. What are the good and the bad aspects of this medication?
I am considering a 5 mg/day trial of deprenyl as a possible treatment for my atypical depression symptoms (low motivation, low energy, hypersomnia, etc.).
I appreciate any and all feedback.
-- Ron
BP II and OCPD
600 mg/day Lithobid
900 mg/day Trileptal
50 mg/day Lamictal (level limited by rash)
5 mg every other day of Adderall XR as tx for atypical depressive symptoms; more frequent use causes "pstim burnout" symptoms.
Note: If I add deprenyl, I plan to discontinue Adderall XR.
Posted by KaraS on April 1, 2005, at 22:35:36
In reply to Tell me your Selegiline Story » All PB Community, posted by Ron Hill on April 1, 2005, at 21:52:07
Hi Ron,
I haven't tried selegiline again since my last posts. I would like to try 5 mg. + DLPA but I've recently had a horrible time with anxiety and was afraid that the combo would make the anxiety worse. I'm currently taking 25 mg. of doxepin which has controlled the anxiety but I'm afraid to add selegiline to it. Once I figure out what is safe to mix with selegiline + DLPA that will also control the anxiety, I'll try the combo again.Sorry, wish I could add more here.
Kara
Posted by KaraS on April 1, 2005, at 22:42:42
In reply to Tell me your Selegiline Story » All PB Community, posted by Ron Hill on April 1, 2005, at 21:52:07
A few other names you might want to look into: Pseudonym, World Citizen and AndrewB had really good responses to selegiline + DLPA. sfy tried it but didn't have a good response.
Posted by Sarah T. on April 2, 2005, at 3:11:57
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by willyee on April 1, 2005, at 18:55:34
Hi Willyee,
Thanks for tellling us about your selegiline experience. Can you tell me whether you've ever taken Adderall (4 mixed amphetamine salts)? I tried it a few years ago for a very short time. My feelings about that experience are similar to yours for selegiline. I have met a few people here who take Adderall with Klonopin. I didn't do that, so I was a trembling, withdrawn, nervous wreck on that stuff. On the other hand, Dexedrine was the most stabilizing, calming medicine I've ever taken. Too bad it pooped out on me. I read that selegiline metabolizes into the l-isomers of several amphetamines. I believe that at least one, and possibly two, of the 4 isomers in Adderall is an l-isomer. I find those l-isomers most unpleasant. As I read someplace else, if the l-isomers were so great, you can be sure the pharmaceutical companies would be marketing "Levadrine."
Posted by Ron Hill on April 2, 2005, at 18:28:42
In reply to Re: Tell me your Selegiline Story » Ron Hill, posted by KaraS on April 1, 2005, at 22:42:42
Posted by willyee on April 4, 2005, at 1:08:36
In reply to Willyee » willyee, posted by Sarah T. on April 2, 2005, at 3:11:57
> Hi Willyee,
> Thanks for tellling us about your selegiline experience. Can you tell me whether you've ever taken Adderall (4 mixed amphetamine salts)? I tried it a few years ago for a very short time. My feelings about that experience are similar to yours for selegiline. I have met a few people here who take Adderall with Klonopin. I didn't do that, so I was a trembling, withdrawn, nervous wreck on that stuff. On the other hand, Dexedrine was the most stabilizing, calming medicine I've ever taken. Too bad it pooped out on me. I read that selegiline metabolizes into the l-isomers of several amphetamines. I believe that at least one, and possibly two, of the 4 isomers in Adderall is an l-isomer. I find those l-isomers most unpleasant. As I read someplace else, if the l-isomers were so great, you can be sure the pharmaceutical companies would be marketing "Levadrine."
Yeah i dident like it much at all,as with ritalin which i hated,i am now strictly maoi aside from herbs and other un conventional drugs worth trying.
Posted by Mark24 on March 14, 2007, at 22:52:53
In reply to Re: Parnate vs Nardil, posted by willyee on March 29, 2005, at 15:28:51
I was wondering if you could tell me the name of the book that talks about Parnate and Deprenyl as smart drugs. I'm interested to read further about this. Thanks.
Posted by FredPotter on March 15, 2007, at 22:47:53
In reply to Re: Parnate » Mr.Scott, posted by ed_uk on March 28, 2005, at 7:08:33
I've stopped Effexor suddenly as told by my Dr. What a 24 hours it's been. Terrible dreams, sleep paralysis, sleeping all day. Anyone know the washout from Effxor XR to Nardil, as that is the plan?
My Dr told me he didn't know the washout period but suggested 10 days. My pharmacist who knows more than my Dr said 7 days. Do either of them know the truth?
Both of them were very surprised this old (sic) drug was still made, as they don't prescribe it. What's more it's subsidised here in NZ. So perhaps NZ is a little out of touch. And the Ph'cist was a little concerned they might stop its manufacture. However I discover that about 80,000 people take it world-wide so that seems a reasonable market.
My Ph'cist said yes it was more effective for atypical depression than other ADs. It worried me that he seemed quite happy for the most effective drug for a common condition might become unavailable.For me there are not many side effects that compete seriously with anxiety and depression
Thanks for your help
Fred
Posted by willyee on March 16, 2007, at 19:38:48
In reply to Re: Parnate vs Nardil » willyee, posted by Mark24 on March 14, 2007, at 22:52:53
> I was wondering if you could tell me the name of the book that talks about Parnate and Deprenyl as smart drugs. I'm interested to read further about this. Thanks.
Sorry i never saw this,i get lost sometimes with so many threads.
Parnate isnt in detail,just on a list on page 177 of the book smart drugs and nutrients 2,embeded in a list of other ones,email me and i can scan this one page for you.
Deprenyl is mentioned in detailed with the google term,.....smart drugs guide its that long page/article also deprenyl is simply mentioned a LOT in a group title SMART DRUGS,to get there go google,google GROUPS,AND IN GOOGLE GROUPS "SMART DRUGS"
In this group,do a search on deprenyl and youll have tons of talk.
Posted by Mark24 on March 16, 2007, at 20:53:06
In reply to Re: Parnate vs Nardil, posted by willyee on March 16, 2007, at 19:38:48
Thanks for the response. I appreciate the info. That would be great if you could scan that page and email it to me. My email is mt242007@yahoo.com
Posted by Mark24 on March 16, 2007, at 20:53:58
In reply to Re: Parnate vs Nardil, posted by willyee on March 16, 2007, at 19:38:48
Thanks for the response. I appreciate the info. That would be great if you could scan that page and email it to me. My email is mt242007@yahoo.com
Posted by tessellated on March 20, 2007, at 4:48:11
In reply to Re: Parnate vs Nardil » willyee, posted by Mark24 on March 16, 2007, at 20:53:58
as far as a psychopharmacologist once told me, nardil is like a shotgun. hits many different receptors, and not well studied due to its off patent status.
i had a positive blood test for amphetamines while taking parnate. whether thats, a false positive due to the testing methodology, or an actual metabolite, seems to be controversial. the propalomine ring poses the possiblity to be matabolised to an amphetamine, though most of the "few" studies seem to refute that claim.
i do believe that parnate has amphetamine like affects at doses over 80mg, for me male 150lbs. i've read that this is the result of an additional amphetamine metabolite similar to selegeline.
i've neve had much luck on powdered selegeline. the oral liquid appears far more active, and i've yet to try the way overpriced patch.
Currently, i'm cautiously trying a low dose 20mg parnate admin, and it really does, in subtle ways, change my outlook, like i can feel mesocortical activation: motivation, positive affect, etc. I'm staying low dose because, in my personal experience, when i've moved up or over the 100mg the withdrawl has caused me serious problems akin to amphetamine withdrawl. Paranoia, agitation, extreme fatigue, basically tweeker episodes. So I do believe it has a potent dependancy effect at doses ove 80mg.
Its been one of the best and worst meds i've ever tried. Not as bad as amphetamines; i eat excercise, am social, mating, but my 2 unsupervised withdrawls were nightmares.
It is probably the most potent antidepressant, its not considered a stimulant, as the dose and the individuals genes will cause considerable variation.
It does absolutely change several metabolic factors. As well it's not just an MAOI, it has directly activating catecholaminergic metabolic agonist, and alters cytokinase reception. I don't believe this has been worked out or understood as its off patent.
I think the problem most of parnaters have is an interruption in circadian rythms. Whether or not that matters is still scientifically vague. Sleep may not be anywhere as necessary as we think. However, chronic parnate, amphetamine, methyphinidate etc..withdrawl provides a analogous animal model of psychosis, wether or not this is at least partially related to sleep deprivation is yet in debate. It is hard to sleep on most maoi's. and i've found that reduced sleep actually helps depression, but when one pushes 36 awake hours regularly, in my experience it can exacerbate side effects not much disimilar to what i've read on amphetamine binges. except that i eat and find excercise pleasant.
using parnate with a benzo to control sleeping habits worries me about its analogous similarity to "pulling an elvis".
nardi, which i have yet to try, has weight gain issues, but might on its own be more directly anioxylitic due to the gabaminergic agonism.. it basically hits more receptors.
finally, and i'm only 32, and have never had a hypertensive reaction off parnate, even while eating banapeels, etc. red wine gave me mild headaches. i suppose this variation in affect is genetic, so ymmv, but the only problems i ran into were; insomina, fatigue, hypomania, and severe "discontinuation syndrome.
best,
t8
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