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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by ed_uk on December 22, 2004, at 6:27:57
Alcohol p.r.n. (when required)
When, if ever, might it be appropriate for a psychiatrist to suggest the 'as required' use of alcohol to relieve anxiety?
.... For exacerbations of social anxiety in particular a *small* amount of alcohol prn might at times be more beneficial than a dose of Xanax!
What do you think!?
Ed.
Posted by jujube on December 22, 2004, at 8:27:56
In reply to Something that is not politically correct......., posted by ed_uk on December 22, 2004, at 6:27:57
Is this from an actual study or something? How bizarre! Can you imagine someone pulling out a fifth of gin or cracking open a beer or a bottle of wine at work and telling their boss that they are under doctor's orders to have a drink to relieve anxiety! I can't imagine how a doctor could justify not presecribing a benzo but would not hesitate to tell someone to drink alcohol, another potentially addictive substance. There would be no logic in doing this in my mind. I would think that prescribing hash or pot would carry less risk for physical addiction.
I self-medicated with alcohol for years (although never at work), and, although it can be quite effective at relieving anxiety at times, it is a double-edged sword that causes other problems.
Tamara
> Alcohol p.r.n. (when required)
>
> When, if ever, might it be appropriate for a psychiatrist to suggest the 'as required' use of alcohol to relieve anxiety?
>
> .... For exacerbations of social anxiety in particular a *small* amount of alcohol prn might at times be more beneficial than a dose of Xanax!
>
> What do you think!?
>
> Ed.
Posted by KikiCabell on December 22, 2004, at 9:07:40
In reply to Re: Something that is not politically correct....... » ed_uk, posted by jujube on December 22, 2004, at 8:27:56
I think it's an interesting question but I, too, self-medicated with alcohol for many years, also never at work, though. Unfortunately, alcohol actually causes anxiety as and after it leaves the body so the morning after drinking, one's anxiety often soars through the roof - until one has another drink. It IS so very addictive to some and, perhaps the worst thing for us, it can interfer with meds.
All that said, I personally don't see a problem with a drink or two to help ease social anxiety. Ideally we would all be capable of handling it on our own but I know, as a shy person, how difficult it can be. And a glass of wine with dinner can be a very nice thing, indeed.
> Is this from an actual study or something? How bizarre! Can you imagine someone pulling out a fifth of gin or cracking open a beer or a bottle of wine at work and telling their boss that they are under doctor's orders to have a drink to relieve anxiety! I can't imagine how a doctor could justify not presecribing a benzo but would not hesitate to tell someone to drink alcohol, another potentially addictive substance. There would be no logic in doing this in my mind. I would think that prescribing hash or pot would carry less risk for physical addiction.
>
> I self-medicated with alcohol for years (although never at work), and, although it can be quite effective at relieving anxiety at times, it is a double-edged sword that causes other problems.
>
> Tamara
>
> > Alcohol p.r.n. (when required)
> >
> > When, if ever, might it be appropriate for a psychiatrist to suggest the 'as required' use of alcohol to relieve anxiety?
> >
> > .... For exacerbations of social anxiety in particular a *small* amount of alcohol prn might at times be more beneficial than a dose of Xanax!
> >
> > What do you think!?
> >
> > Ed.
>
>
Posted by darkhorse on December 22, 2004, at 9:19:14
In reply to Something that is not politically correct......., posted by ed_uk on December 22, 2004, at 6:27:57
> Alcohol p.r.n. (when required)
>
> When, if ever, might it be appropriate for a psychiatrist to suggest the 'as required' use of alcohol to relieve anxiety?
>
> .... For exacerbations of social anxiety in particular a *small* amount of alcohol prn might at times be more beneficial than a dose of Xanax!
>
> What do you think!?
>
> Ed.Hi Ed,
Doctors don't need to do that.Alcohol is freely available and has been widley used and abused since God knows when!!
I think benzos are a vast improvement on Alcohol :
They provide the positive effects(anxiyolitic effects) one gets from Alcohol without the intoxication,smell,GI problems,Liver,Heart problems,delerium.....etcI remember that you once mentioned in a thread that if doctors were to prescribe more BZs,Alcholism would be less of a problem,and I can not agree more.
Just some thoughts..
Best regards,
Adam
Posted by ed_uk on December 22, 2004, at 9:32:38
In reply to Re: Something that is not politically correct......., posted by darkhorse on December 22, 2004, at 9:19:14
Hi!
I'm not suggesting that people should be drinking at work! In certain social situations though, I think alcohol can be useful.... within reason! Imagine going to a party and saying... 'I can't drink because I've just taken a big dose of Xanax to deal with my social anxiety.' I find that alcohol makes me friendly and sociable whereas benzos tend to make me quite aggressive and moody.
Ed.
Posted by ed_uk on December 22, 2004, at 9:43:47
In reply to Re: Something that is not politically correct......., posted by ed_uk on December 22, 2004, at 9:32:38
>benzos tend to make me quite aggressive and moody.
.....or maybe that's just diazepam.
Ed.
Posted by Dan Perkins on December 22, 2004, at 17:35:47
In reply to Something that is not politically correct......., posted by ed_uk on December 22, 2004, at 6:27:57
I think p.r.n. use of alcohol to relieve anxiety is a good idea, in theory. Fact is that if there were a prescription med that had the exact same effects (and side effects) as alcohol, it would probably be THE go to drug for anxiety (particularly social anxiety) - more effective than the benzos with fewer side-effects.
You will never hear a psychiatrist recommend it for a few reasons. For one, many people don't need to be told to drink alcohol to relieve anxiety - they do it on their own, most of the time not even realizing that they are self-medicating.
Two, as you point out, it is far too politically incorrect.
Three, a doctor's power and identity lies in his prescription pad and any treatment that doesn't require a prescription is not likely to be taken seriously.
Posted by ed_uk on December 22, 2004, at 17:44:50
In reply to Re: Something that is not politically correct....., posted by Dan Perkins on December 22, 2004, at 17:35:47
> a doctor's power and identity lies in his prescription pad and any treatment that doesn't require a prescription is not likely to be taken seriously.
Hi Dan,
Many doctors seem to have quite a strong dislike of alternative/complementary medicine. To what extent do you think that this is because the treatments in question can be obtained without a prescription?
>Fact is that if there were a prescription med that had the exact same effects (and side effects) as alcohol....
Well, now that GHB (Xyrem) is available on prescription in the US who knows what's coming next?! Xyrem isn't prescribable in the UK btw... and I doubt that it ever will be.
Ed.
Posted by Dan Perkins on December 22, 2004, at 22:06:54
In reply to Re: Something that is not politically correct..... » Dan Perkins, posted by ed_uk on December 22, 2004, at 17:44:50
If you are really interested in this topic I would refer you to a great book by Robert Atkins called "Dr. Atkins' Health Revolution."
This isn't a diet book like his others, instead it presents Atkins' vision for the future of medicine. He goes into the history of alternative medicine and traditional medicine in outlining his vision of complementary medicine, in which practitioners use the best of alternative and traditional medicine to treat their patients.
It's a brilliant book and as harsh and poignant a critique of modern medicine as you will find anywhere. I've read some of your posts on this board and I really think you would get a lot out of this book.
> Many doctors seem to have quite a strong dislike of alternative/complementary medicine. To what extent do you think that this is because the treatments in question can be obtained without a prescription?
>
Posted by fachad on December 23, 2004, at 0:19:48
In reply to Something that is not politically correct......., posted by ed_uk on December 22, 2004, at 6:27:57
Only drugs with patent protection get "objective scientific studies"...
which are used to arm armies of sales savvy detail men drug reps...
which results in docs recommending the drugs.
Alcohol, effective as it may be, is off patent and therefore there is no money in it.
If some natural substance were found to be more effective than the expensive patent drugs, the pharmaceutical industry would wage a massive propaganda and legal campaign against it to suppress it's use.
Remember tryptophan? That was right before Prozac came out and the whole 'serotonin' revolution in psychiatry. Too bad they found that dangerous contamination in that one batch and were forced to recall all tryptophan and the FDA was forced to ban it.
Posted by Dan Perkins on December 23, 2004, at 1:07:51
In reply to Won't happen because alcohol's patent is expired, posted by fachad on December 23, 2004, at 0:19:48
well said!
and have you seen those armies of drug reps dispatched out to doctor's offices? They are usually very attractive young women (or men in some cases). It's a sad commentary on the state of physicians that the drug companies can use sex to sell their products.
> Only drugs with patent protection get "objective scientific studies"...
>
> which are used to arm armies of sales savvy detail men drug reps...
>
> which results in docs recommending the drugs.
>
> Alcohol, effective as it may be, is off patent and therefore there is no money in it.
>
> If some natural substance were found to be more effective than the expensive patent drugs, the pharmaceutical industry would wage a massive propaganda and legal campaign against it to suppress it's use.
>
> Remember tryptophan? That was right before Prozac came out and the whole 'serotonin' revolution in psychiatry. Too bad they found that dangerous contamination in that one batch and were forced to recall all tryptophan and the FDA was forced to ban it.
>
Posted by darkhorse on December 23, 2004, at 5:51:38
In reply to Re: Something that is not politically correct......., posted by ed_uk on December 22, 2004, at 9:43:47
> >benzos tend to make me quite aggressive and moody.
>
> .....or maybe that's just diazepam.
>
> Ed.Hi Ed,
I think that those side effects are relative from one person to another,from a drug to another and also THE DOSE.
I found out that , in general, when I take a low dose of a benzo I tend to be sedated and spaced out.
If I increase to an anxiety-free dosage,I tend to be "happy",sociable and nice most of the time.
But if the dose is increased more I become moody,unkind,and rude....
I have not touched Alcohol in ages,but I do seem to remember that alcohol's effects are rather similar,however,with alcohol one tends not to realise those differences,while on BZs I'm aware of all those stages...
Regards,
Adam
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 23, 2004, at 20:30:36
In reply to Re: Something that is not politically correct....., posted by Dan Perkins on December 22, 2004, at 22:06:54
> If you are really interested in this topic I would refer you to a great book by Robert Atkins called "Dr. Atkins' Health Revolution."
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book, movie, or music without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
Posted by Dan Perkins on December 23, 2004, at 22:18:01
In reply to Re: double double quotes » Dan Perkins, posted by Dr. Bob on December 23, 2004, at 20:30:36
I didn't know about it, but I think it's a good idea and will use the double quotes in the future.
> > If you are really interested in this topic I would refer you to a great book by Robert Atkins called "Dr. Atkins' Health Revolution."
>
> I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
>
> The first time anyone refers to a book, movie, or music without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
>
> Thanks!
>
> Bob
Posted by KikiCabell on December 24, 2004, at 9:04:09
In reply to Re: Something that is not politically correct......., posted by ed_uk on December 22, 2004, at 9:32:38
Ed:
I'm not a huge fan of benzos either. I always felt worse than hung over after I took them and/or they put me sleep and caused sleep-walking.
- Kiki
> Hi!
>
> I'm not suggesting that people should be drinking at work! In certain social situations though, I think alcohol can be useful.... within reason! Imagine going to a party and saying... 'I can't drink because I've just taken a big dose of Xanax to deal with my social anxiety.' I find that alcohol makes me friendly and sociable whereas benzos tend to make me quite aggressive and moody.
>
> Ed.
>
Posted by Dan Perkins on December 24, 2004, at 9:26:53
In reply to Re: Something that is not politically correct....... » ed_uk, posted by KikiCabell on December 24, 2004, at 9:04:09
When I drink I sometimes feel a bit down the next day.
When I take klonopin I often sink into a depression that can last a few days.
> I'm not a huge fan of benzos either. I always felt worse than hung over after I took them and/or they put me sleep and caused sleep-walking.
>
> - Kiki
>
> > Hi!
> >
> > I'm not suggesting that people should be drinking at work! In certain social situations though, I think alcohol can be useful.... within reason! Imagine going to a party and saying... 'I can't drink because I've just taken a big dose of Xanax to deal with my social anxiety.' I find that alcohol makes me friendly and sociable whereas benzos tend to make me quite aggressive and moody.
> >
> > Ed.
> >
>
>
Posted by ed_uk on December 24, 2004, at 10:11:12
In reply to Re: Something that is not politically correct....., posted by Dan Perkins on December 24, 2004, at 9:26:53
My Benzo problems.......
1) If I'm in a situation where I need to be able to concentrate I often feel incapable after taking a benzo. I can't think clearly and I end up feeling helpless- this can exacerbate my anxiety. For me, benzos are only useful in situations where I don't need to be able to think clearly.
2) I sometimes say things that I later regret. I tend to loose my ability to restrain myself. If someone irritates me after I've taken a benzo I'll immediately tell them where to go!!
Summary.....
I find benzos useful for anxiety in situations where I don't need good cognitive function.
Posted by gromit on December 24, 2004, at 10:44:26
In reply to Re: Something that is not politically correct....., posted by Dan Perkins on December 24, 2004, at 9:26:53
> When I drink I sometimes feel a bit down the next day.
>
> When I take klonopin I often sink into a depression that can last a few days.Me too, when I tried diazepan within 2 days I was deeply depressed, probably the worst I've ever felt. I was not particularly depressed at that time either, it was prescribed as a muscle relaxant. Never again will I take any benzo.
Rick
Posted by Dan Perkins on December 24, 2004, at 10:52:13
In reply to Re: Something that is not politically correct....., posted by gromit on December 24, 2004, at 10:44:26
I wish I learned from my mistakes as well as you.
I sink into a terrible depression that lasts for days when I take klonopin, but that usually doesn't stop me from taking it (albeit only 4-5 times a year). I just have such terrible social anxiety that the lure of getting over that anxiety in the near term causes me to underestimate the severity of the depression that comes afterward.
It is really a lingering deep depression that comes after the klonopin.
> Me too, when I tried diazepan within 2 days I was deeply depressed, probably the worst I've ever felt. I was not particularly depressed at that time either, it was prescribed as a muscle relaxant. Never again will I take any benzo.
>
>
> Rick
>
>
>
>
Posted by ed_uk on December 24, 2004, at 13:10:48
In reply to Re: Something that is not politically correct....., posted by Dan Perkins on December 24, 2004, at 9:26:53
Hi Dan,
Why don't you try a different benzo?
Ed.
Posted by Dan Perkins on December 24, 2004, at 13:29:43
In reply to Re: Something that is not politically correct..... » Dan Perkins, posted by ed_uk on December 24, 2004, at 13:10:48
I may do that eventually. Any thoughts on what would be good to try for social anxiety/phobia besides klonopin?
> Hi Dan,
>
> Why don't you try a different benzo?
>
> Ed.
Posted by ed_uk on December 24, 2004, at 13:37:35
In reply to Re: Something that is not politically correct....., posted by Dan Perkins on December 24, 2004, at 13:29:43
Hi Dan,
I expect that all the commonly used benzos can be effective for social anxiety. You could try Xanax or Ativan.
Ed.
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 25, 2004, at 10:40:01
In reply to Re: double double quotes, posted by Dan Perkins on December 23, 2004, at 22:18:01
This is the end of the thread.
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