Shown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by BRC on December 15, 2004, at 19:14:31
Hi,
I have been struggling with this question for a while.
I have been taking Klonopin daily for the last two to three years for anxiety and OCD. I take 4mg a day. I do not crave the medication, I have never taken more than I should, and I don't drink alcohol.
I know that Klonopin is a benzo and it works on the chemical GABA in the brain.
But if I miss a dose of Klonopin I physically feel terribe (I know about withdrawal effects). I mean the Klonopin takes away all the physical symptoms I experience. Such as: Heart palpations, tremors, restlessness, and racing thoughts.
My question is does my body really have a faulty GABA chemical problem or has my body become addicted to the Klonopin. I can tell when the Klonopin is wearing off because my symptoms begin to return.
I guess my point is if I loose my medication, get stranded without it, or couldn't afford to get it refilled I would probably end up in the ER or something suffering from the terrible symptoms I described.
So, what do you think is the Klonopin doing its job or is my body addicted to it?
Thanks,
BRC
Posted by JACJ on December 15, 2004, at 22:37:07
In reply to Really a chemical imbalance or Klonopin addiction?, posted by BRC on December 15, 2004, at 19:14:31
Hi BRC,
My opinion is that you are suffering from tolerance to K. You will need more K in the future to get the same effects. You are addicted. You body is addicted b/c you are experiencing w.d symptoms when you are late with the med or forget it. Addiction also means that you need to take the pill so you won't experience those symptoms. It doesn't only mean when you crave something. Your 4 mgs of K is equal to 40 Mgs. of Valium. I have alot of experience with benzos and believe they are really bad news. They shouldn't be used on a long term basis and this is documented in so many journals, etc.The benzo can also cause more anxiety and symptoms then before you went onto the drug. Have you spoke with anyone on this issue like your doctor? I came off all meds about 9 months ago and I feel 10 times better than I did. it was a personal choice for me cause I hated suffering from the side effects. If you do w/d from K please, please do it at a slow rate. W/d symptoms can last many months and w/d from a benzo slowly does not guarantee a smooth ride. Please don't be scared. I want to help you. I know loads of people who had some discomfort but made it thru to the other side. I came off of 3 mgs of ativan in 4 weeks which is extremely fast and I am doing so well. I am not trying to tell you what to do but just my feelings on benzos and other psychotropic drugs. Take care and please email me if you have any questions.
Posted by Glydin on December 16, 2004, at 6:20:38
In reply to Really a chemical imbalance or Klonopin addiction?, posted by BRC on December 15, 2004, at 19:14:31
Probably the only way to answer that question is to try and discontinue with a SLOW, SLOW, SLOW taper.
I believe you are probably physically dependent as most of us who use K routinely are. Thus, your symptoms when you miss a dose and their disappearence when your dose is taken. This "medical dependence" is not the same as addiction. Addiction has four characterictics:
1) PsychoSocial disruption - example, "craving"
2) Inapproiate use - example, "to get high"
3) Tolerence - example, not reaching a maintance dose and requiring more and more for the same effect
4) Drug seeking behavior - example, doctor shopping for RX's, "losing RX's" and asking for replacements when one really has not lost RX.Physical dependence is not uncommon. Psychological dependence is not uncommon either. I don't consider either finding necessarily "bad", and I'm fine with my medical dependence - I've discontunued twice and I'm just better on K, but that comfort varies from person to person.... and if a person mets the criteria for addiction - I feel supervised discontinuing must occur.
I do understand if medical dependence bothers you or you are not comfortable with that. Again, a very slow, slow, slow taper for discontinuing might answer the question you pose. Talk with your doc about your concerns.
Posted by missamor on December 16, 2004, at 15:28:43
In reply to Re: Really a chemical imbalance or Klonopin addiction? » BRC, posted by Glydin on December 16, 2004, at 6:20:38
i too have been taking klonopin for ocd and gad for, i believe, over two years. i have only increased my dose from 1mg daily to 1.5mg daily and that was pretty early in my taking the medication.
i worry alot because i want to have children & a healthy realtionship and wonder if that is possible if i am really "high" on K. i wonder if i am high on K? i wonder what the medication has already done to my body/mind. and what damage i will do when i am to wean off this medication. i also feel guilty because half of me doesnt care about any of these adverse affects that could happen because i feel so much better when i am on the medication.
i feel like i knew what i was getting myself into. kind of like when i was 17 and forced myself to smoke cigs b/w classes. i knew i was basically asking for a problem (ive had for 8 years) but didnt care. like i invited the addiction.
for me the largest change in my life is the ability i have had since taking klonopin to resist my obsessive/compulive thoughts and actions. i am no longer exercise bulimic, my sick quest for perfection has somewhat ceased. and i feel so much more normal. i dont binge drink or smoke pot nearly as much.
so why beat myself up? its not like im home snorting the k and trying to find more, dr shopping, and all the things that are telltale signs of an addict.
but i can be disallusioned to say i am not physically dependant or addicted to this medication. i am and that is for sure. i have felt the withdrawl that takes place when i am not taking my medication on schedule.
i have a bratty little friend who loved looking down her nose at me and said she would never want to have to take something everyday to feel normal. well she has to have attention from a man everyday since we were 12. moved in with one when she was 16 and never has been alone for a day in her life.
i say to her i would hate to have to have someone else by me at all times to feel normal.
if im dependant-she is too.
is there a difference?
im sure many think so but really what is the difference. (beyond the gaba transmitter stuff) she needs something each day to get by and so do i. and id rather have klonopin than not be able to take care of myself.
another factor in feeling like an addict is the way pharmacies and ppl act about the drugs. i hate feeling like a crackhead at cvs, but i dont let myself anymore. ive had lots of little technicians say they are very dangerous drugs. i should get off as soon as possible. i just let them give me two ignorant cents and if it makes them feel better thats fine. klonopin makes me feel better too.
so a long answer to your short question of chemical imbalance or klonopin addiction? my opinion is i have both for sure.
Posted by Glydin on December 16, 2004, at 16:01:13
In reply to Re: Really a chemical imbalance or Klonopin addiction?, posted by missamor on December 16, 2004, at 15:28:43
I understand what you are saying, I really do. After my second discontinuing, I had to make peace with what was truly a good treatment for me. Of all psych meds, there are few more stigmatized and "called to judgement" as the use of benzo's. I feel this is unfortunate - I feel labeling this class of drugs awful for EVERYBODY and EVERYMIND is not correct.
One must be careful. There are potentials for terrible pitfalls and there are true horror stories as with any number of other meds, but correct use can make for a life worth living and able to be lived - or it has for me. I tried other more "acceptable" routes to no avail. For me, it was a risk versus benefit question. If others or society choose to judge me, that's their issue, not mine. I live within this body and with this mind. I found my truth and I am comfortable with that. That being said, it was not an easy conclusion to accept, but once I did, it felt really right for me.
Posted by BRC on December 16, 2004, at 19:05:05
In reply to Re: Really a chemical imbalance or Klonopin addiction? » missamor, posted by Glydin on December 16, 2004, at 16:01:13
Hi,
This is BRC thanks for replying to my post. After reading some of the responses to this particular post I was wondering if you may know the answer to this question.
I have been reading and researching my medications since the day I started them. Different meds and combos for the past five years.
I have had every medical test known to man. I have been hospitalized for my anxiety, depression, and OCD. I just wanted to get back to normal. But it is five years later and I am struggling just like it was the first day it happened.
Anyway to get to my question--Do you think meds like Klonopin, SSRI's, and moodstabilizers such as Trileptal can cause irreversible damage if taken for long periods of time.
My problem is I cannot calm myself down. I cannot be still and I cannot keep my mind from racing constantly. Taking all of this medication only takes the edge off a little.
I have never drank nor done drugs. I was an honor grad in both high school and at the University level. I hold two degrees one in Business Administration and the other in Finance.
Now I have a problem just doing basic arithmatic. It seems as if I do not control my brain anymore.
I have had the best doctors, neurologist, and psychiatrist say that it is a neuropsychological disorder that strikes its victims in their early twenties. It hit me at 23. I am 28 now.
For the past five years I have been swallowing a pill of some sort from doctors who that I will need this medication for the rest of my life.
I have often wondered (since I was perfectly normal, happy, and rational in my thinking before I started all of this medication) that the medication could actually be the root of the entire problems.
From a person who has taken psych meds before what do you think.
Sorry for such a long post.
Thanks,
BRC
Posted by Glydin on December 16, 2004, at 20:40:35
In reply to Re: Really a chemical imbalance or Klonopin addiction? » Glydin, posted by BRC on December 16, 2004, at 19:05:05
Hi BRC,
Good to meet you. First of all, let me say I am sorry for the struggles you have endured. I imagine you are stronger than you give yourself credit for.
In all fairness, my primary difficulty is an Anxiety Disorder and I have no experience with other disorders. I do have some opinions about your concerns and I’ll be glad to share them.…
I do think there is argument to be made for overmedicating of some folks. This can happen due to a snowball effect. One is placed on a med for a primary problem. Using this med can unveil another problem, adding another diagnosis, or POSSIBLY the use of the med causes another problem; thus another med is added and so on and so on. I don’t think this is altogether an ineffective process – IF it works for the individual. If it doesn’t, well, I think the treatment plan needs reevaluating.
Another opinion I hold is about the plasticity of the brain. I think the brain as an organ is amazing and is quite capable of adaptation due to a number of “insults” to include when meds have changed things around. I think there are very few meds that permanently alter functioning….. there are a few, but just a few.
If I could ask, why did you begin medications initially, if, as you stated, things seem to be going well for you prior to your beginning meds?
Please keep in mind, I’m no expert. Others may be able to address your question much better than I. I do think if you believe you would be better to decrease your meds and you would like to explore that option, find a doc willing to HEAR you and work with you. It’s your life, your brain, your body and you deserve the best functioning possible.
I'm not sure this post is helpful to you at all, but I do wish you----
All the Best,
Glydin
Posted by BRC on December 16, 2004, at 21:59:20
In reply to Hi BRC, posted by Glydin on December 16, 2004, at 20:40:35
Wow,
I want to thank you for your response, how well you articulate yourself, and how intelligent you sound.
Well what led to my anxiety disorder was STRESS!! I was working full time at a major military installation and was taking my last final exam my senior year and about to graduate.
It had been a pretty stressful month and I wasn't getting very much sleep and was constantly thinking what I was going to do when I graduated. Apply my degree or continue my old job.
Well before taking my final I was sitting in the classroom talking to my classmates (this was in May of 1999). All of a sudden my head began to hurt, I started shaking, and I felt like I was going to pass out. I had never, ever felt this way before. So, I told one of my classmates that I was getting very sick and to tell the proffessor I had to leave.
As I left the University the symptoms intensified. I really thought I was going to DIE. I thought I was having a stroke. I knew I couldn't drive myself home and the ER was one block away. I pulled up to the ER and they had to take me out by wheel chair.
They ran all kinds of tests and could not find anything. I began to feel a little better, was released and made it home.
But the symptoms kept returning. My strange symptoms landed me back in the hospital where every test from heart to brain to internal medicine was ran for three days. They could find nothing.
But the symptoms continued to occur more often. The safety of my co-workers at the military base were in jeporady because I could no longer handle my job duties anymore because of the mysterious symtoms.
I ended up missing my graduation and having to quit my job.
I saw tons of specialist. Was poked, proded, MRIed, extrayed, tested, you name it at three reputal hospitals in two states. Everyone had there own opinion.
Well as you might guess by now what I had was a Panic attack brought on by stress and fatigue. Which turned into an anxiety disorder. Left with no job mounting debt and hundred of thousands of dollars in medical bills. I guess you would say I LOST IT.
Never in my life would I believe that anxiety would lead me to my next journey. I admitted myselft to a psych hospital not once, but three times.
I tried tons of medication. I see the most respected and revered psychiatrist in my state. He is a wise older doctor with hospitals named after him.
Now if you have read this far about the meds especially the Klonopin. Klonopin is the only thing that really gives me relief.
I am suppose to take 4mg a day. But I try to get by on as little as possible. It is amazing I will literally feel like I am physically dieing and am about to go crazy, but I can take my Klonopin and within 30 minitues I am back to normal.
I have always been a health freak, never drank, smoke, and never, ever touched drugs. So, the idea of taking all of this medication all day long scares the HELL out of me. But it seems I have to have it to make it through the day.
To look at me you would thing I was healthy and in great shape. But on the inside I physically feel like I am dieing.
So, in your honest opinion do you see an ethical and rational decision to stay with the benzo or to talk to my pdoc and try to wean myself off of it.
I trully apologize for such a long post. I just wanted to give you the whole story.
Hope to hear from you soon.
BRC
Posted by Glydin on December 16, 2004, at 22:49:59
In reply to Re: Hi Glydin--Please Read » Glydin, posted by BRC on December 16, 2004, at 21:59:20
> Wow,
>
> I want to thank you for your response, how well you articulate yourself, and how intelligent you sound.~~~You are much too kind and thank you.
> Well what led to my anxiety disorder was STRESS!!~~~I understand your story all too well. I attribute mine to working, for years, in an adrenelin charged, life or death environment that, at one time, I thrived on. One day.. well, actually, it was more gradual than that... My fight or flight regulation just wacked out. It was most life impacting and effected EVERYTHING I knew as my life. So, I do know well your struggles.
I do think it was good you had a through workup to rule out other problems. That should always be the starting point.
> I am suppose to take 4mg a day. But I try to get by on as little as possible. It is amazing I will literally feel like I am physically dieing and am about to go crazy, but I can take my Klonopin and within 30 minitues I am back to normal.
~~~Just from reading your writings, I'm thinking that 4 mgs may be a good maintance dose for you. Dosing is variable and due to a number of factors and you may well have found your dose. It is a goal to be on the lowest possible effective dose, but 4mgs may be just what you need. I think it's really important, with Klonopin, to maintain a steady blood level, so taking it at timed intervals, I feel, is important.... so, your body's not playing "catch up".
> I have always been a health freak, never drank, smoke, and never, ever touched drugs. So, the idea of taking all of this medication all day long scares the HELL out of me. But it seems I have to have it to make it through the day.~~~As I said in another post, making peace with what I must do wasn't easy, but it did happen for me.
> So, in your honest opinion do you see an ethical and rational decision to stay with the benzo or to talk to my pdoc and try to wean myself off of it.
~~~My honest opinion is you should really think of remaining on. I see nothing in what you've written that would have me believe your use is problematic. The four "No-No's" I posted that point to addiction and abuse are not evident in what you write. K has been around for 40 years. Much is known about it. It is a good safe treatment when used correctly. I can't, of course, REALLY make that decision for you, but that's my opinion.
I am a benzo success story.... maybe I'm the only one (smile). I came here 3 years ago (different ID) to find someone like me. In my initial research, all I could find were horror stories and predictions of "You'll be sorry...". I don't discredit at all the difficulties this class of drugs can bring. I returned to this site to support those who were making the same choice I did. I wanted let those folks know successful long term use is possible.
>
> I trully apologize for such a long post. I just wanted to give you the whole story.No problem. I'm glad to hear your story and I do like to know, maybe in a very small way, I have been of help someone.
If I can help you further, I'll be happy to.
Glydin
Posted by jasmineneroli on December 17, 2004, at 1:24:13
In reply to For BRC, posted by Glydin on December 16, 2004, at 22:49:59
Hello there BRC!
Both you and Glydin describe the same personality/lifestyle as myself :) Your paths are very similar to mine, in the evolution of my anxiety disorder (minus the hospilization...close to it on 2 occasions, tho').
And BRC, your worrying about Klonopin seems to be a manifestation of that anxiety disorder.
Ppl with anxiety disorders are notorious for not wanting to take drugs, or take too much of a medication. They worry about everything, including their meds!
It's my opinion that you are not an abusive user of Klonopin, otherwise you would have increased your dose by now, or tried other benzo's.
I agree with everything Glydin says. I have taken a small daily dose of Klonopin for over 18 months, and, as I've said many times before, it's the ONLY drug to take my debilitating anxiety away. It gives me no side effects (except a bit of memory loss, I'm not sure - that could be age!!). I think it's a "good" drug, when appropriately prescribed.Are you feeling guilty for needing it?? I felt terrible for months after I started it, because I kept feeling I "should" be able to perform at a high level, like I always had (with no problems). I felt I ought to be able to do that without the help of a drug. I just couldn't understand why I was no longer able to cope.
Eventually I came to accept that my brain had been changed by the perpetual "adrenaline rush" I lived on, and hormonal changes. I couldn't "down-regulate" the excitatory response without the chemical aid of Klonopin
I do have a variable mild depression involved as well, which I'm trying to handle with tryptophan and other supplements (see...I don't want "drugs"!!!!). In this experiment, I have added Niacinamide(a version of vitamin B3). It may well help with anxiety. I'm going to try increasing it and decreasing my Klon., to find out. The only reason why I'm doing this, is the memory thing. If it doesn't work, I'll continue with the Klon.
If you are really wanting to try out how you will be without the Klonopin, I, too, recommend you talk to your doctor about how to very slowly discontinue it. You might want to go over to the Alternative Board and read about niacinamide, there are some ppl there that have stopped benzo's to try it.
Best wishes, as always. May your thoughts stop racing! Sorry for the long reply!!
Jas
Posted by BRC on December 17, 2004, at 9:02:46
In reply to For BRC, posted by Glydin on December 16, 2004, at 22:49:59
Glydin,
You have helped more than you can EVER imagine.
It is so nice to talk to someone who understands your problems especially with the stigmitaion that this sort of medication carries.
See, for some reason I have always wanted to know everything and how it worked when it inpacted me. I mean for example the vehicle I drive I tend to learn everything about it how I can fix, make it better, how it compares to others.
That is why I did so well in academics I guess. I always was intrigued by things and wanted to know more.
Well when I found out about Klonopin its potential for abuse and addiction. How some people use it to get high, etc. It began to bother me. I even wrote to the manufacturer of the med Roche chemicals about long term use because it worked so well for me. But they said there clinical trials were only conducted for a certain number of weeks and they did not know themselves.
I THANK YOU so much for the attention you have given to my problem. THANKS
By the way do you still take Klonopin or any other benzos?
Hope to here from you soon,
BRC
Posted by Glydin on December 17, 2004, at 9:49:36
In reply to Re: For BRC » Glydin, posted by BRC on December 17, 2004, at 9:02:46
> By the way do you still take Klonopin or any other benzos?
Oh BRC,I am so glad I was helpful to you. Disorders like ours are so isolating and it's very easy to feel quite alone, strange, misunderstood, "why me?" and just lonely in our struggles.
Yes, I take my Klonopin twice a day like clockwork. I'm probably a lifer - and for what it does to improve the quality of my life, that's fine.
I really wish you the best. I hope, if you decide to remain on Klonopin, it works as well for you over the long haul as it has for me.
Keep me posted please. I would like to know how you are doing. Again, I'll help you any way I possibly can.
Glydin
Posted by BRC on December 17, 2004, at 13:53:53
In reply to Re: For BRC, posted by Glydin on December 17, 2004, at 9:49:36
Hi Glydin,
Glad I finally found someone who UNDERSTANDS.
If you don't mind me I would like to ask you a few more questions
How many milligrams a day do you take and how long have you been on the Klonopin? My insurance only covers for generic so I have never actually taken the Klonopin brand name med. Can you tell a differene b/t the brand name and the generic?
And do you take any other meds to help with your anxiety. Do not answer if this line of questioning is to personal.
Glad to have met you.
You also keep me updated on your successes and stay in touch. I think you could help alot of people on this site.
BRC
Posted by Glydin on December 17, 2004, at 14:24:31
In reply to Re: For Glydin » Glydin, posted by BRC on December 17, 2004, at 13:53:53
Hey BRC,
> If you don't mind me I would like to ask you a few more questions
~~~I'm an open book when it comes to discussing these matters.
>
> How many milligrams a day do you take~~~I actually titrate my dosing. Now, don't get caught up on the fact that my doses seem low compared to yours... it's not important at all... I require what I require and your requirements are suited to you. I'm a small person and ubersensitive to meds. My highest dose has been 2 mgs per day divided. My usual maintance dosing now is between .25 mgs per day and .5 mgs per day. Despite this small dosing, I know if I don't take it and it is what I require. Most folks doses are between 2-6 mgs per day.
and how long have you been on the Klonopin?~~~3 years consistently, give or take a few months off in that time frame.
My insurance only covers for generic so I have never actually taken the Klonopin brand name med. Can you tell a differene b/t the brand name and the generic?
~~~I use the Teva generic and always have. I generally use the term Klonopin, but clonazepam would be a more accurate term to use as to what I'm actually taking.
>
> And do you take any other meds to help with your anxiety. Do not answer if this line of questioning is to personal.~~~I'm on no other RX meds. I experimented with the alternative route and trialed several things -again, like the RX trials I did before Klonopin, most "stuff" didn't pan out. What did pan out really well and I have been on for a year is high EPA dose Salmon Oil. I think it's great stuff. Once I had been on Salmon Oil for about 2 months, my K dose decreased.
>
> Glad to have met you.~~~I'm very glad to have met you, too.
>
> You also keep me updated on your successes and stay in touch. I think you could help alot of people on this site.~~~Thank you for that, it really makes me feel good about myself.
Please take care of you.
Posted by steve3211 on December 18, 2004, at 19:02:35
In reply to Really a chemical imbalance or Klonopin addiction?, posted by BRC on December 15, 2004, at 19:14:31
Story similar to all of you probably. Problems all started with severe anxiety which leads to depression. Opinion seems to be that klonopin is an effective benzo. How about xanax? Is it as effective? I have a lot of it but never want to use it (don't want to take meds thing) I take lexapro and it has helped over the last year, but have not used the xanax. Question is should I? The depression alway comes as a result of anxiety? Should I try to use the xanax to short circuit the anxiety before it spirals and causes depression?
Great place to come and get help guys
Thanks - Steve
Posted by Glydin on December 18, 2004, at 19:43:03
In reply to Re: BRC - JACJ - Glydin, posted by steve3211 on December 18, 2004, at 19:02:35
Hello Steve,
>>Opinion seems to be that klonopin is an effective benzo.
~~~I find it quite effective, but as with all benzo's, the precautions need to be followed and I'm an advocate of close medical monitoring on initial startups.
>>How about xanax? Is it as effective? I have a lot of it but never want to use it (don't want to take meds thing) I take lexapro and it has helped over the last year, but have not used the xanax. Question is should I?
~~~I've not alot of experience with Xanax. I have taken it briefly but did not find it as effective for me as Klonopin. Regular Xanax is short acting and burns out quickly. Klonopin is slower to act and lasts longer. General ideas seem to be Xanax is better utilized to stop a panic attack and Klonopin for generalized anxiety states - this is just a "general" thought and, in comparison of action, they can be used interchangably.
If your Lexapro is working well for both, why add any more meds? I think benzo's should only be used if anxiety can't be controlled by other meds.
>>The depression alway comes as a result of anxiety?~~~Well, that's not a question with an easy answer. Some think the two are so closely related they must always be comorbid. Personally, I think Anxiety Disorders can be a stand alone diagnosis, but I tend to place more emphasis on the more problematic and prevailing symptoms... for me that was anxiety. I can say when my anxiety is ill controlled I feel "depressed" with an overriding feeling the ill controlled anxiety is the root cause. Once the anxiety is controlled - things are "normal". This is not everyone's finding.
>>Should I try to use the xanax to short circuit the anxiety before it spirals and causes depression?~~~I guess that's a "chicken versus the egg" question if you struggle equally from both problems. I suggest speaking candidly with your doc on their thoughts on that question.
Posted by steve3211 on December 19, 2004, at 12:30:48
In reply to Steve--, posted by Glydin on December 18, 2004, at 19:43:03
Thanks Glydin,
I will be talking to the doc again shortly. Its nice to know people like you and all the other posters are here when needed.
Best - Steve
Posted by Glydin on December 19, 2004, at 12:46:15
In reply to Re: Steve--, posted by steve3211 on December 19, 2004, at 12:30:48
Good to meet you, hope all goes well for you.
Glydin
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