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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by ed_uk on November 27, 2004, at 19:58:10
In reply to Re: questions, internet anti-benzo movement, posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 19:48:46
Hi,
Even though you needed 20mg/day in the past doesn't mean that you would need that much now. Being off the diazepam for a while may have reversed some of your tolerance, meaning you might be able to get by on a much smaller dose.
Would it be so bad to be on diazepam again? Did you have a lot of side effects?
Perhaps if you did go back on diazepam you could treat your remaining anxiety with another med which is less likely to be associated with tolerance. You don't have to be diazepam free, do you? Dependence is nothing to be ashamed off, despite what you may feel. Dependence on diazpam is mainly physiological, it is not a sign of weakness.
Regards,
Ed.Inderal is good for palps and tremor. Not much else!
Posted by ed_uk on November 27, 2004, at 20:01:23
In reply to Re: questions, internet anti-benzo movement, posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 19:48:46
Sorry, I forgot to ask you how slowly you tapered from diazepam.
Ed
Posted by Fallen4MyT on November 27, 2004, at 20:08:07
In reply to Re: To Paul, posted by ed_uk on November 27, 2004, at 19:58:10
I have taken valium for MANY years for anxiety..I have taken breaks from the meds up to 2-3 years...I personally think a taper is the wise and safest way to go. You know if you do say 20 mg cut to 15 and a half for a month and so on. When you think about it benzos get a bad rap...IMO because they are cheap. We depend on drugs like insulin, SSRI's (ya get withdrawals with them too they use the PC term discontinuation syndrome) and high blood pressure meds to name a few. If I went off my high blood pressure meds I would have a hypertensive crisis as one can going off many meds. You may wanna taper and or add Neurontin if you can tolerate it to help with withdrawal they use it in many treatment centers. Good luck. It's my opinion no other drug is as good as a benzo for anxiety
Posted by JACJ on November 27, 2004, at 20:18:37
In reply to Lou's response to Paul Smith-bzd » Paul Smith, posted by Lou Pilder on November 27, 2004, at 19:54:27
I was addicted to benzos and withdrawal was hell. I am off of them almost 9 months and still am going thru a little of w/d. I did come off of 3 mgs. of Ativan in 4 weeks. I am totally against the drug b/c of many reasons. benzo.org.uk saved my life and am so thankful. I am drug free for alomst 9 months now and feel better than ever. Yes, I do get my days but that is to be expected.
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 27, 2004, at 20:34:57
In reply to Re: Lou's response to Paul Smith-bzd, posted by JACJ on November 27, 2004, at 20:18:37
JACJ,
You wrote,[...was addicted...off 9 months... still ,...a little...better than ever...].
I have been off bzd for over 7 years.
Lou
Posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 20:38:14
In reply to Lou's response to Paul Smith-bzd » Paul Smith, posted by Lou Pilder on November 27, 2004, at 19:54:27
<<Paul,
You wrote,[....what is accurate and what is not?...].
I was one that was addicted to bzd by way of being prescribed the drug by a neurologist for another condition.
I overcame the addiction and withdrawal and have offered my experiance to help others to be free from the withdrawal and addiction.
As one to experiance these things, I could offer some of what I have experianced in relation to your question as to what is accurate and what is not as experiancing and perhaps be of some benifit to your concerns.
Lou>>Lou thanks very much. There is a lot I`d like to ask but I do not know if it would be appropriate to maybe risk overusing this site. I`d be glad to post my personal e-mail address. Is that allowed here? I came off about 2 months and a week ago but took a couple of doses on a bad day 5 days ago. I need to get back to work and living, have been cooped up four months. I hope to find practical strategies.
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 27, 2004, at 20:51:37
In reply to Re: Lou's response to Paul Smith-bzd, posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 20:38:14
Paul,
You wrote,[...would like to ask...risk overusing this site....email ...need to get back ...to living...hope to find practical stratgies...].
I feel better posting on a site than emailing because others can add to the discussion. I am all for helping anyone find practical stratagies.
Lou
Posted by linkadge on November 27, 2004, at 21:01:24
In reply to Re: Lou's response to Paul Smith-bzd, posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 20:38:14
The paxil may help some of the symptoms as SSRI's indirectly increase gaba levels in the brain.
You may want to take an SSRI and a GABAergic anticonvulsant.
As well, zyprexa increases the concentrations of a potent GABAergic neurosteroid (can't spell it..something like alpregnalone)
What about say lyrica and paxil ??
Linkadge
Posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 21:03:05
In reply to Re: To Paul, posted by ed_uk on November 27, 2004, at 19:58:10
<<Hi,
Even though you needed 20mg/day in the past doesn't mean that you would need that much now. Being off the diazepam for a while may have reversed some of your tolerance, meaning you might be able to get by on a much smaller dose.
Would it be so bad to be on diazepam again? Did you have a lot of side effects?
Perhaps if you did go back on diazepam you could treat your remaining anxiety with another med which is less likely to be associated with tolerance. You don't have to be diazepam free, do you? Dependence is nothing to be ashamed off, despite what you may feel. Dependence on diazpam is mainly physiological, it is not a sign of weakness.
Regards,
Ed.>>Ed you are correct, no shame at all in dependence. And if I could erase these symptoms and stay at a reasonable dose for life with no withdrawals problems I would do it in a second. But considering my tolerance history, I have my doubts. It is sad actually. These drugs are great for anxiety, but some of us have real trouble with them.
Yes, I actually do have tolerance reversal from being off two months. When I took a 10 mg Valium early this week it knocked me back, where before I did not even feel that amount. That is pretty good proof.
By the way, I love this site. First time I have discussed this matter in an open forum, all views welcome. Have wanted this for a very long time.
Posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 21:20:07
In reply to Lou's reply to Paul Smith- » Paul Smith, posted by Lou Pilder on November 27, 2004, at 20:51:37
<<Paul,
You wrote,[...would like to ask...risk overusing this site....email ...need to get back ...to living...hope to find practical stratgies...].
I feel better posting on a site than emailing because others can add to the discussion. I am all for helping anyone find practical stratagies.
Lou>>That is fine with me and apparently longer discussions are appropriate. My initial post contained a lot of details regarding what I have read on the net. Would you be willing to analyze it, tell us what is true, what is questionable, and why? Does zealotry and/fanaticism, paranoia ever exist to any real degree, and cloud the truth here? Could reading some of these testimonies and claims, that it often takes a very long time to recover, if at all completely, create severe anxiety in and of itself, eg. self fulfilling prophecy? What about the claims of the "chemicals" found in foods, drink, all sorts of pills that supposedly make withdrawals worse?
So I got off two months ago. I tapered pretty slow. I did take a couple of doses early this week but backed off. What do you suggest from here? Thanks. Congrats on being off 7 years. :-)
Posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 21:30:12
In reply to Re: To Paul, posted by ed_uk on November 27, 2004, at 20:01:23
<<Sorry, I forgot to ask you how slowly you tapered from diazepam.>>
Ed1 mg a week usually, sometimes sat still longer. Took about 7 months. Was painful, tolerance the whole way.
Posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 21:35:31
In reply to Re: Lou's response to Paul Smith-bzd, posted by linkadge on November 27, 2004, at 21:01:24
What about say lyrica and paxil ??Linkadge
Yea, doc has wanted me on an SSRI since the beginning. I have steadiy refused as so many on the net withdrawing from benzos report bad experiences. I did try Paxil once for 3 weeks before this benzo problem. No adverse affects at all. Not sure if that would still hold true. Have a Zoloft starter kit in the drawer but it is reportedly not as good on anxiety.
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 27, 2004, at 21:42:43
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Paul Smith-, posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 21:20:07
Paul,
You wrote,[...would you be willing to tell me what is true, what is questionable...claimes...].
I can tell you what I have experianced. I have been on the benzo board advocating the writings by Dr. Heather Ashton, and others. So I am familiar with a lot of the writings from others on these boards and have corrosponded with the owners and some of the principle members.
But what I have to offer here comes from a different perspective than the others. The perspective that I have has to do with what the drug is and how it was founded and marketed and what it does to you. Then, there is a remedy that worked for me that is different from the method advocated by a lot of the internet benzo boards.
So in my "method" one overcomes the addiction and depression and the withdrawal by a differant means than of tapering and taking other drugs such that you describe in your post as to what you would like to know as true or not. I can only tell you what is true to me, for I did not follow the other methods, but those could also be ways to withdrawal.
Lou
Posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 21:43:34
In reply to VALIUM, posted by Fallen4MyT on November 27, 2004, at 20:08:07
<<Good luck. It's my opinion no other drug is as good as a benzo for anxiety>>
Thanks for your help. Yep, they are great on anxiety but the withdrawals for me have been murder. I assumed I needed to get off them. I was in tolerance for a while but I could have possibly settled at a dose. This was never suggested to me, on the net, or at the doc`s office. Doc hears of trouble they want to pull you off.
Posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 21:47:31
In reply to Lou's reply to Paul Smith-tfqu » Paul Smith, posted by Lou Pilder on November 27, 2004, at 21:42:43
Paul,
You wrote,[...would you be willing to tell me what is true, what is questionable...claimes...].
I can tell you what I have experianced. I have been on the benzo board advocating the writings by Dr. Heather Ashton, and others. So I am familiar with a lot of the writings from others on these boards and have corrosponded with the owners and some of the principle members.
But what I have to offer here comes from a different perspective than the others. The perspective that I have has to do with what the drug is and how it was founded and marketed and what it does to you. Then, there is a remedy that worked for me that is different from the method advocated by a lot of the internet benzo boards.
<<So in my "method" one overcomes the addiction and depression and the withdrawal by a differant means than of tapering and taking other drugs such that you describe in your post as to what you would like to know as true or not. I can only tell you what is true to me, for I did not follow the other methods, but those could also be ways to withdrawal.
Lou>>PLease tell me about it. It is not Narcanon is it?
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 27, 2004, at 22:08:03
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Paul Smith-tfqu, posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 21:47:31
Paul,
What is true, false or questionable with others, I do not know. I can only tell you what I have experianced. I am not familiar with Narconon.
Lou
Posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 22:20:23
In reply to Lou's reply to Paul Smith-tfquB » Paul Smith, posted by Lou Pilder on November 27, 2004, at 22:08:03
<<Paul,
What is true, false or questionable with others, I do not know. I can only tell you what I have experianced. I am not familiar with Narconon.
Lou>>When are you going to tell me Lou, or is suspense the cure for benzo withdrawal... <grin>
Posted by JACJ on November 27, 2004, at 22:51:15
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Paul Smith-tfquB, posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 22:20:23
There is no cure for benzo withdrawal. You just have to go thru it. I recommend joining www.benzo.org.uk
We will help you thru benzo withdrawal.
Posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 23:05:40
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Paul Smith-tfquB, posted by JACJ on November 27, 2004, at 22:51:15
<<There is no cure for benzo withdrawal. You just have to go thru it. I recommend joining www.benzo.org.uk
We will help you thru benzo withdrawal.>>
I was joking with Lou. And I really thank you. I am a member of that forum already. I rarely log in and read as much is scary and there is often discrepancies with and embellishments to the writings of Ashton. I find much questionable. Plus disagreement, even questioning the wrong people can easily bring down wrath. I do not need any of the above right now. But if you want to help me here I am game. Guess I got to tough this out and hope I can keep a roof over my head long enough. Is important I get functional pretty soon.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on November 27, 2004, at 23:16:49
In reply to Re: VALIUM, posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 21:43:34
You're more than welcome :-) My experience was when they didn't work as well to cut back a tad then go back to the theraputic dose. I have heard TM is great THE BEST for anxiety but the cost for *REAL* classes in TM are astronomical...I would love to try that but thousands I do not have
Keep us posted and best of luck with whatever you do.
> <<Good luck. It's my opinion no other drug is as good as a benzo for anxiety>>
>
> Thanks for your help. Yep, they are great on anxiety but the withdrawals for me have been murder. I assumed I needed to get off them. I was in tolerance for a while but I could have possibly settled at a dose. This was never suggested to me, on the net, or at the doc`s office. Doc hears of trouble they want to pull you off.
>
>
Posted by JACJ on November 27, 2004, at 23:20:29
In reply to Re: VALIUM » Paul Smith, posted by Fallen4MyT on November 27, 2004, at 23:16:49
Tell me what you feel is wrong with that site? Have you gotten put down? I know things on there are scary but please don't believe that will happen to you. Everybody is different and if you taper slow you have a better chance of a less difficult w/d. I came off a benzo in under 4 weeks and had a really difficult time but am 90 percent recovered after almost 9 months off.
Posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 23:45:14
In reply to Re: VALIUM, posted by JACJ on November 27, 2004, at 23:20:29
<<Tell me what you feel is wrong with that site? Have you gotten put down? I know things on there are scary but please don't believe that will happen to you. Everybody is different and if you taper slow you have a better chance of a less difficult w/d. I came off a benzo in under 4 weeks and had a really difficult time but am 90 percent recovered after almost 9 months off.>>
They mean well at the site but if you read enough you can be scared to drink water. Can make someone want to live in a bubble to avoid any chemical that will supposedly throw gas on the fire of withdrawal. That may sound offensive but that is about the tone of it. It hard to be truthful and put it mildly. And I think their anti-med stance is extreme. Ashton advocates the use of auxillary meds in some circumstances. These remarks would never be tolerated in there. I think at times they get so intent on attacking benzos that things get over stated, theory is presented as fact, and people are scared needlessly.
I tapered, but not like most in there do. I could not do the .25 mgs of Valium every two weeks, "listen to my body" and take two years to get off. I was in too much agony tapering, and there is no spouse to pay my bills. I tapered about 1 mg a week. Slower than the schedules of U.S. docs, fast for that forum. But I wonder how many of them ever actually do get off. 9 months and you are 90% healed? I can live with that, especially if I can work in a couple more months. Keep telling me the good stuff.:-)
Posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 23:53:37
In reply to Re: VALIUM » Paul Smith, posted by Fallen4MyT on November 27, 2004, at 23:16:49
Thanks again and I am so glad this is working for you. As the saying goes, "if it aint broke don`t fix it."
Posted by JACJ on November 28, 2004, at 0:07:38
In reply to Re: VALIUM, posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 23:53:37
Dear Paul,
I understand completely what you are saying about the site. There are some people who also think that but they have a been a great support to me in my time of need. I felt uncomfy a lot of times but what they say is true in a lot of respects. I can tell you time is a healer and it is only temporary. I was at the pit of hell and then one day I improved by 50 percent. The CNS is so complex and you may heal in an instant. For example, my one friend was in a car accident and had pins and needles in her leg for 5 years and she woke up one day and never had them again. It is so hard (impossible) to predict healing of the CNS but it does come. I appreciate life so much now. I am somewhat bitter and angry but that will go in time. There is a reason I went thru this. Most people come off the benzos with little problems. That website is extreme cases. There are millions of people on benzos and over half don't have w.d symptoms past a few weeks. That is even stated in the research.I was on 13 meds in 2 years and 10 months so my body was just on overload. How long were you on benzos? You can do this. It might be hard but the only way is thru. Don't be scared. If you taper right you will do well. However, don't taper too slow cause that could cause more symptoms than you would like. I am here for you. Diet and exercise is also beneficial. You are probably saying what? Exercise? I can't imagine. I am not saying to workout 4 hours a day. Maybe just walking out side for a few minutes or doing some stretches. Drink alot of water with frsh lemon. It detox your body and makes the world of difference. I did every wrong in my taper and have come out almost perfect. I still have healing but it will come.
I can give you tips and support cause I know I needed it. And that goes for anyone out there. I know coming off meds is so hard and support is crucial. Take care and will talk soon.
JACJ
Posted by ed_uk on November 28, 2004, at 6:26:57
In reply to Re: VALIUM, posted by JACJ on November 28, 2004, at 0:07:38
Hi,
I agree that benzo.org can be frightening. It's all so negative and extreme. Some of the information provided is true but the site is very 'unbalanced' because there is nothing positive to balance out the negative.... if you know what I mean.
When you were taking diazepam on a daily basis, were you experiencing withdrawal symptoms between doses? How many times a day did you taken the drug? eg. did you take 10mg twice daily or 5mg four times a day etc.
I think you should stick with this site because it's not so extreme. Stay here!
Ed.
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