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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 36. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by lostforwards on November 23, 2004, at 16:35:04
This is burnt out.
Posted by linkadge on November 23, 2004, at 16:47:07
In reply to Frontal Lobe Tumor causes Pedophilia in a Man, posted by lostforwards on November 23, 2004, at 16:35:04
What do you mean by burnt out ??
I think that it is fully fathomable that a tumor in the frontal lobes could inhibit decision making and impulse control.
Linkadge
Posted by lostforwards on November 23, 2004, at 17:29:06
In reply to Re: Frontal Lobe Tumor causes Pedophilia in a Man, posted by linkadge on November 23, 2004, at 16:47:07
I thought it was interesting not because of the obvious effects of damage to the frontal lobes, but because of the fact that in this case it just happened to make the person in question pedophilic.
Posted by lostforwards on November 23, 2004, at 17:29:53
In reply to Re: Frontal Lobe Tumor causes Pedophilia in a Man, posted by lostforwards on November 23, 2004, at 17:29:06
btw: burnt out = interesting
Posted by linkadge on November 23, 2004, at 19:06:38
In reply to Re: Frontal Lobe Tumor causes Pedophilia in a Man, posted by lostforwards on November 23, 2004, at 17:29:53
I think that this man probably had tendencies of this nature all along, and the damage to his frontal lobes simply made him uninhibited.
I don't think the tumor necessarily made him this way, but just allowed his true nature to surface.
Linkadge
Posted by Iansf on November 23, 2004, at 22:27:50
In reply to Re: Frontal Lobe Tumor causes Pedophilia in a Man, posted by linkadge on November 23, 2004, at 19:06:38
> I think that this man probably had tendencies of this nature all along, and the damage to his frontal lobes simply made him uninhibited.
>
> I don't think the tumor necessarily made him this way, but just allowed his true nature to surface.
>
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> LinkadgeI agree. The headline probably should read "Frontal Lobe Tumor Makes Man More Inclined to Act on Pedophilic Tendencies" or perhaps "Less Inclined to Suppress Pedophilic Tendencies."
Posted by crazychickuk on November 24, 2004, at 2:58:27
In reply to Re: Frontal Lobe Tumor causes Pedophilia in a Man » linkadge, posted by Iansf on November 23, 2004, at 22:27:50
Or perhaps ''Man blames tumour on his pedophiliia tendancies'' ?
Posted by cubbybear on November 24, 2004, at 5:14:28
In reply to Frontal Lobe Tumor causes Pedophilia in a Man, posted by lostforwards on November 23, 2004, at 16:35:04
> This is burnt out.
>
> The title of this thread could easily pass for a headline in the National Enquirer. I was hoping that the meaning of the slang phrase "burnt out" (with which I was unfamiliar) would mean inaccurate, illogical, fallacious and irresponsible (yellow) journalism. These days, sex hysteria has been so ingrained in the population at large that it doesn't surprise me one bit that some individual would compose an article of some fully untested, irresponsible supposition linking a brain tumor to what most people would call sexual deviance. It would then follow that all people who display paedophiliiac tendencies should be hauled off to the operating room to have their frontal lobes checked. This was just the sort of thinking that went on around the turn of the century when surgeons performed routine operations on the brain when insanity was suspected.. During the Middle Ages, holes were drilled into people's heads to let the evil spirits out.
With the current climate of intolerance and knee-jerk labeling as it is, those who might be diagnosed with a paraphilia or other sexual abnormality through DSM-IV had better be careful--they might next be suspected of having a growth on the brain. . Oh excuse me, Sorry for the long rant. . .
Posted by lostforwards on November 24, 2004, at 10:32:51
In reply to Re: Frontal Lobe Tumor causes Pedophilia in a Man » lostforwards, posted by cubbybear on November 24, 2004, at 5:14:28
I guess in a way most medications are like sledge hammers. Except a bit better than sledge hammers. The exact mechanism of action isn't known, but there's the fact that symptoms are relieved albeit with side-effects. In fact we have theories of what causes depression and theories of why people get schizophrenia.
Whether or not they are correct is questionable.
Recently a I read an article on recent research in bipolar here.http://www.news-medical.net/?id=6021
Here's a quote:
“All current treatments — lithium, valproate, carbamazepine, and antipsychotics — take days, if not weeks, to work. That’s because they’re likely acting far upstream of where a key problem is, namely in the PKC pathway. Since PKC inhibitors could act more directly, they might quench symptoms more quickly. Patients could carry PKC inhibitors and take them preventively, as soon as they sense a manic episode coming on.”So soon we could have better more exact medications for bipolar.
Of course, lowering activity in the frontal lobes could solve a variety of problems, especially if the individual in question has a troublesome personality.I would hesitate to say that neither the tumor or the man's inherent nature was cause for the development of his pedophilia.
Posted by lostforwards on November 24, 2004, at 10:34:14
In reply to Re: Frontal Lobe Tumor causes Pedophilia in a Man, posted by crazychickuk on November 24, 2004, at 2:58:27
how do you know it's his fault? how do you know it's totally the tumors fault?
Posted by lostforwards on November 24, 2004, at 10:39:24
In reply to Re: Frontal Lobe Tumor causes Pedophilia in a Man » lostforwards » cubbybear, posted by lostforwards on November 24, 2004, at 10:32:51
When I mentioned reducing activity in the frontal lobes, I meant enought to quench the person personality for the most part. A partial reduction in activity might cause trouble. ex. I've heard in mania brain activity decreases in the right frontal lobe. I'm not sure if that's right or not but there it is.
Posted by lostforwards on November 24, 2004, at 10:50:16
In reply to Re: Frontal Lobe Tumor causes Pedophilia in a Man, posted by linkadge on November 23, 2004, at 19:06:38
That's a sound conclusion and one I would probably submit to.
But do you think there's any chance that the location of the tumor in that part of the brain would've have made any difference? Is it possible that there's some specificity involved, even if it's a bit more general the pedophillia.
Posted by lostforwards on November 24, 2004, at 10:58:39
In reply to Re: Frontal Lobe Tumor causes Pedophilia in a Man » lostforwards, posted by cubbybear on November 24, 2004, at 5:14:28
And yes, they had better be careful on all fronts when it comes to diagnosing and prescribing treatments for mental conditions.
Posted by linkadge on November 24, 2004, at 12:23:23
In reply to Re: Frontal Lobe Tumor causes Pedophilia in a Man, posted by lostforwards on November 24, 2004, at 10:34:14
I think that a simple brain scan should accompany any case of agressive, illegal behavior. A man in my neighbourhood's emotional state deteriorated over the period of two years. He was prescribed everyting under the sun, but nothing controlled his behavior.
He eventually killed his family and kids,
an autaupsy revealed that hea had a large tumor in the area around his amygdala.Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 24, 2004, at 12:30:55
In reply to Re: Frontal Lobe Tumor causes Pedophilia in a Man » lostforwards, posted by lostforwards on November 24, 2004, at 10:58:39
There are also some reports that suggest that pedophilia may be caused by imballences in the release of oxytocin.
The hormone oxytocin, is invoved in the natural bonding between a parent and a child. In animals if receptors for oxytocin are blocked, a parent will competely disregard the presence of its young.
If oxytocin is injected into the brains of animals without offspring, the animal will start nurturing and caring for the young of other animals.
There were some trials of a oxytocin antagonist for use in persons with pedophellia tendencies with some sucess.
Would a sound scientific/neural basis for some our most shunned offendor's behavior be of any consolation to future courtroom sentencing?
Linkadge
Posted by cubbybear on November 24, 2004, at 23:46:44
In reply to Re: Frontal Lobe Tumor causes Pedophilia in a Man, posted by linkadge on November 24, 2004, at 12:30:55
> Would a sound scientific/neural basis for some our most shunned offendor's behavior be of any consolation to future courtroom sentencing?
>
>
> LinkadgeI very much doubt if even the most unequivocal scientific explnation would elicit calm, rational, and conciliatory behavior among people who have been conditioned to react as they do, thanks to a society that's gone mad amid this generation's moral panic. They believe in their hearts that paedophilia is worse than murder, so solidly scientific explanations and words like "oxytocin" mean absolutely nothing to people who can not and won't be reasoned with.
>
Posted by cubbybear on November 25, 2004, at 2:06:55
In reply to Re: Frontal Lobe Tumor causes Pedophilia in a Man, posted by linkadge on November 24, 2004, at 12:23:23
This is a very "hot" thread because it touches on extremely controversial issues. I think you've finally come upon the major problem here that society must deal with. If we are going to have certain individuals submit to a simple brain scan for aggressive, illegal behavior, it's rather cut and dry to determine what is currently illegal and what isn't. But the difficulty with paedophilia is that a large number of people instinctively associate paedophilia with physical torment, when in fact only a tiny handful of the individuals who engage in this behavior, actually resort to violence, physical aggression or brutaility. It has frequently been shown that the great majority of paedophiliacs do not exhibit violent or physically hurtful behavior. If anything, it appears to be quite the contrary.
So you can see the difficulties inherent in ordering a brain scan for any behavior that we might erroneously consider to be aggressive. And, imagine the implications for society if everyone deemed to be aggressive toward his/her spouse was carted off by the police and forced to submit to a brain scan.
Posted by lostforwards on November 25, 2004, at 6:45:01
In reply to Re: Frontal Lobe Tumor causes Pedophilia in a Man, posted by linkadge on November 24, 2004, at 12:30:55
I like to think in most cases that an individual should be held responsible for there actions unless they have a severe mental illness.
How are people with personality disorders treated in the court room? Can they say, it was their illness. Often things I've done have been pegged by others as a result of my bipolar illness, but I don't feel that's true and I find it very dehumainzing. I'm usually fully aware of what I'm doing.
Pedophilia, as with homosexuality in the past, might be wrongly considered an illness when it's actually a choice.
*********************
STILL, in this case there was an undeniable correlation between the growth of the tumor and his thoughts. A tumor is not a natural in the brain. It's visibly a problem....but then you could say all human behaviour is subject to any pertubation in the human brain. That it's malfunctioning when it is in fact not and you could label any number of things illness.
Which just leads to the good old debate about where to draw the line with mental illness.
Manipulating oxytocin could be useful for any number of purposes. I can think of one: A parent who's bothered "excessively" losing custody of a child.
Posted by lostforwards on November 25, 2004, at 6:47:45
In reply to Re: Frontal Lobe Tumor causes Pedophilia in a Man, posted by linkadge on November 24, 2004, at 12:23:23
I think a brain scan's a good idea, just to rule out obvious physical problem and especially before someone is treated with psychiatric medications. However, I'm not sure if it's worth the money and time. How often do people who end up in hospital for mental problems have something like a tumor?
Posted by cubbybear on November 25, 2004, at 8:55:19
In reply to illness or the thoughts of a rational human being? » linkadge, posted by lostforwards on November 25, 2004, at 6:45:01
>
> Pedophilia, as with homosexuality in the past, might be wrongly considered an illness when it's actually a choice.There is still no proven"cause" of homosexuality and maybe there never will be. Perhaps it's a confluence of genetic pre-disposition and conditioning. But whatever it is, it is NOT an illness and the prevailing thinking is that it is NOT a choice.
> Manipulating oxytocin could be useful for any number of purposes. I can think of one: A parent who's bothered "excessively" losing custody of a child.
I had never heard of oxytocin before and its alleged role in parent-child bonding is quite interesting. But I can only hope that our culture does not resort to forced behavior modification via hormones and other chemicals.
>
>
>
Posted by lostforwards on November 25, 2004, at 9:59:01
In reply to Re: illness or the thoughts of a rational human being? » lostforwards, posted by cubbybear on November 25, 2004, at 8:55:19
I'm sorry about that. I was wrong in saying homosexuality was a choice.
However, regardless of whether it's considered a choice or not, it was a mistake to place it in the DSM as an illness. Similarly considering pedophillia an illness is a mistake. Though, now that you mention homosexuality as not a choice, it makes me wonder whether pedophillia might have a genetic component. I don't know.
Finding little kids sexually attractive in itself is not a crime.
Oxytocin is also involved in love and attachment in general. There was a time I wanted injections of that stuff.
Your fears are being realized. Behaviour modification is well underway, antidepressants and stimulants are already being prescribed needlessly - to younger and younger age groups, inevitably having an impact on who they turn out to be.
Parents of "hyperactive" children get distressed and give them Ritalin so they can sit still in school. Though I don't see hyperactivity as necessarily a bad thing. School is the problem. I couldn't sit still when I was a kid....I was arguably hyperactive. I didn't have bipolar then. : ) I'm glad I wasn't put on stimulants though.
People use nootropics to boost their IQs.
Finally, sometimes I wonder whether or not people on SSRIs have an edge ( **only in some ways**, there is a downside IMHO )that I don't that would be beneficial for me especially with all the things I have to do in my life.
Apparently they soften negative affect, give people a burst of energy AND they take away your need for romance and supposedly get rid of unrequited love syndrome too. VERY GOOD for getting good grades in school. I hate it ( but love it ) when I get lovesick, but it costs me in school.
You can see why it might be tempting to take any psychotropics for the sake of a little boost or a change in prespective every now and then.
You could choose your tempermant.
Maybe we'll soon be a bunch of drug addicts, taking what we need when it's appropriate in our life for all sorts of artificial conditions that are really just a natural part of being human.
I don't think it'll get that far, but it seems the net of mental illness is getting bigger.
Disclaimer: I'm not saying these drugs have absolutely no place in society, just that they're sometimes used when they don't need to be.
Posted by linkadge on November 25, 2004, at 12:23:41
In reply to Re: illness or the thoughts of a rational human being? » lostforwards, posted by lostforwards on November 25, 2004, at 9:59:01
Let me see if I have this straight. Pedophilia is not a choice, it's not a mental illnes, but acting upon it is illegal. We certainly have a connundrum. We've got thousands of people who have to live very difficult lives.
If an oxytocin blocker (we're not talking oxycontin the pain reliever notice the subtle spelling difference) can deminish the drive of these people then it is obviously diminishing the suffering of them as well.
Currently pedohpiles are routinly administered high doses of SSRI's and sexual hormone blockers to deminish their sex drive.
We, as a society really have no way of approaching the problem. We know it is biological just like half of the other diseases for which men and woman have strived decades for which to gain acceptance and credability.
A turmor is something we can accept, but in one way or another we still can't accept chemical imballences.
If we could give these people a pill to make them attracted to a man/woman instead, then society would be extatic, but lest we forget this was the same idea we had for homosexuals a while ago.
Linkadge
Posted by lostforwards on November 25, 2004, at 13:17:06
In reply to Re: illness or the thoughts of a rational human being?, posted by linkadge on November 25, 2004, at 12:23:41
I know the difference between oxytocin and oxycontin. I don't think I made any statements to the contrary. Thank you for pointing out the difference in spelling.
> We know it is biological just like half of the other diseases for which men and woman have strived decades for which to gain acceptance and credability.
Everything mental has some biological component. There's no question. Depression, Schizophrenia, and Bipolar are much more clear than Pedophillia.
It seems that they're just trying to treat the symptoms. Have any of these people tried psychotherapy?
Posted by linkadge on November 25, 2004, at 13:39:37
In reply to Re: illness or the thoughts of a rational human being? » linkadge, posted by lostforwards on November 25, 2004, at 13:17:06
I don't know what kind of impact therapy could have on such situations.
Linkadge
Posted by cubbybear on November 26, 2004, at 0:06:35
In reply to Re: illness or the thoughts of a rational human being? » lostforwards, posted by lostforwards on November 25, 2004, at 9:59:01
>
> However, regardless of whether it's considered a choice or not, it was a mistake to place it in the DSM as an illness.That was the case up until the early 70s, then the designation was removed.
Similarly considering pedophillia an illness is a mistake. >
> Finding little kids sexually attractive in itself is not a crime.I am not disagreeing with you but I find it amazing that anyone these days would be courageous enough to make these assertions. On what basis have you come to believe this?
> >
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