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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7453 to 7477 of 10407. Go back in thread:
Posted by dancingstar on October 26, 2004, at 12:35:38
In reply to Re: Life after effexor-Depression??? to Bartel and Co » Jubilee, posted by corafree on October 24, 2004, at 20:59:02
Please, please, please do not take EFFEXOR or EFFEXOR XR if you have another alternative as I'm not convinced that it is safe to stop taking this drug.
After four weeks, I still have the runs, but I'm basically free of its grip. My stomach feels as though I have a hole in it, but I can finally breathe again, and I can concentrate, and I don't have a headache. I'm sure that it is only because I am somewhat sophisticated when it comes to alternative medicine and not completely completely financially broke that I've done this well. It could have been very much worse as only last week I didn't feel as though I would live, physically, because I was still so weak.
Last night for the first time in almost a month I went to Billy Blanks' and worked out. I wasn't 100 percent, but it still felt so good to work out again. Even though I was afraid it would really wear me out, I was able to get up and out of bed at 7:30 this morning. With fibromyalgia on a rainy morning...that means I'm better :-).
I've spent hundreds of dollars getting myself out of this Effexor nightmare. Since it was prescribed to me by an incompetent family practice doctor that also had the oxycontin drug rep talk me into taking that drug at another time, I have to beg anyone that doesn't absolutely have to take Effexor to please not take this drug as the withdrawal is so horrid as to not be worth any potential good that this drug can do. There must be better options, and under any circumstances if you are going to take it, make sure that it is prescribed by a doctor of psychiatry or pharmacology that completely understands what they are getting you into. In the end, though, it is up to you as it is your body. If I knew then what I know now, I would never have taken this vile drug. It did me nothing but harm. I didn't need it in the first place, and I didn't need the scum that allowed it to be prescribed to me. (Sorry that I feel so strongly, but I have had to go through two serious withdrawals because of things that he should not have prescribed, and he later denied prescribing them in my medical records. I guess he knew it wasn't such a brilliant idea. And yes, I switched doctors :-))
Anyway, I forgot how amazing it feels to feel good!! So if you do feel good, take just a moment to enjoy it :-) Best of luck to everyone!
Posted by PoohBear on October 26, 2004, at 12:42:54
In reply to I'M FREE - SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT MARKETING, posted by dancingstar on October 26, 2004, at 12:35:38
> Please, please, please do not take EFFEXOR or EFFEXOR XR if you have another alternative as I'm not convinced that it is safe to stop taking this drug.<
Please, please, please...
This is your personal experience, but many thousands are being helped by this drug, myself included. I am glad that you're free of Effexor and it's cessation effects, as that was your goal, but for many, this has been a truly life-saving medication.
As for something being done about marketing, you're right, more of a warning should accompany dispensing of Effexor.
Tony
Posted by Shyla on October 26, 2004, at 13:08:35
In reply to Re: I'M FREE - SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT MARKETING, posted by PoohBear on October 26, 2004, at 12:42:54
> > Please, please, please do not take EFFEXOR or EFFEXOR XR if you have another alternative as I'm not convinced that it is safe to stop taking this drug.<
>
> Please, please, please...
>
> This is your personal experience, but many thousands are being helped by this drug, myself included. I am glad that you're free of Effexor and it's cessation effects, as that was your goal, but for many, this has been a truly life-saving medication.
>
> As for something being done about marketing, you're right, more of a warning should accompany dispensing of Effexor.
>
> TonyHear, hear Tony! What a resonable response. Effexor XR has been working great for me too. What may work for one, may not for another, and if someone experiences bad affects from a drug, the same may not happen to another. I try to keep an open mind to all possibilities.
Posted by corafree on October 26, 2004, at 20:56:00
In reply to I'M FREE - SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT MARKETING, posted by dancingstar on October 26, 2004, at 12:35:38
I've been on it since April. My father (my best friend and mentor) passed away 2mos before. I was in bad, bad shape, and actually still am in bad shape. Pls share the alternative meds which helped w/ your withdrawal, with me. It could be a life-saving possibility. I'm glad you're feeling so well, and that you still take the time to think of those who aren't; appreciated! cf
> Please, please, please do not take EFFEXOR or EFFEXOR XR if you have another alternative as I'm not convinced that it is safe to stop taking this drug.
>
> After four weeks, I still have the runs, but I'm basically free of its grip. My stomach feels as though I have a hole in it, but I can finally breathe again, and I can concentrate, and I don't have a headache. I'm sure that it is only because I am somewhat sophisticated when it comes to alternative medicine and not completely completely financially broke that I've done this well. It could have been very much worse as only last week I didn't feel as though I would live, physically, because I was still so weak.
>
> Last night for the first time in almost a month I went to Billy Blanks' and worked out. I wasn't 100 percent, but it still felt so good to work out again. Even though I was afraid it would really wear me out, I was able to get up and out of bed at 7:30 this morning. With fibromyalgia on a rainy morning...that means I'm better :-).
>
> I've spent hundreds of dollars getting myself out of this Effexor nightmare. Since it was prescribed to me by an incompetent family practice doctor that also had the oxycontin drug rep talk me into taking that drug at another time, I have to beg anyone that doesn't absolutely have to take Effexor to please not take this drug as the withdrawal is so horrid as to not be worth any potential good that this drug can do. There must be better options, and under any circumstances if you are going to take it, make sure that it is prescribed by a doctor of psychiatry or pharmacology that completely understands what they are getting you into. In the end, though, it is up to you as it is your body. If I knew then what I know now, I would never have taken this vile drug. It did me nothing but harm. I didn't need it in the first place, and I didn't need the scum that allowed it to be prescribed to me. (Sorry that I feel so strongly, but I have had to go through two serious withdrawals because of things that he should not have prescribed, and he later denied prescribing them in my medical records. I guess he knew it wasn't such a brilliant idea. And yes, I switched doctors :-))
>
> Anyway, I forgot how amazing it feels to feel good!! So if you do feel good, take just a moment to enjoy it :-) Best of luck to everyone!
Posted by dancingstar on October 27, 2004, at 0:21:39
In reply to Re: I'M FREE - SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT MARKETING, posted by PoohBear on October 26, 2004, at 12:42:54
You will remember my post if you ever try to stop taking Effexor, and then you will know why I wrote it.
This is not a drug that should be taken unless it is taken as a last resort. While taking the drug, I didn't know that it was doing any damage to my body. I would never have known if some little glimmer of intuition told me that I didn't need it and shouldn't be taking it.
I have now dropped nine pounds and for the first time in three years made it through an entire day, including stopping by Billy Blanks' to work out, even in the rain, when I am usually in pain.
No, I cannot automatically blame the drug for everything, but I am doing an awful lot of healing very quickly. I was ignorantly taking EffexorXR for three years.
Posted by dancingstar on October 27, 2004, at 0:31:33
In reply to Re: I'M FREE - SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT MARKETING » dancingstar, posted by corafree on October 26, 2004, at 20:56:00
I will write what has become my long list again, all in one place, tomorrow only cause it's been kind of a long day.
Please remember that I live by my intuition and it has saved my life more than once, but I have zero medical background; so it's best that you listen to your doctor, and I pray that you have got great medical care :-).
The things that I have used may or may not be good for someone with different kinds of medical conditions. That's why you need to be careful and make sure that they won't interact with other medications; okay? I'll get it together and write everything down tomorrow...though I know it's all here. I hope I won't bother people with it again. They really have worked synergistically, though, to make a real difference in the way I feel. Whatever is going on, it's pretty amazing...but not under any circumstances worth going through the withdrawal process!!!
Have a great evening.
Posted by corafree on October 27, 2004, at 1:21:06
In reply to Re: I'M FREE - SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT MARKETING » corafree, posted by dancingstar on October 27, 2004, at 0:31:33
Don't have a great doc; have state-appointed. I'm knowledgeable enough re: alternative meds vs traditional meds to make own decisions, and I take responsibility for decisions. I realize what might work for one, may not for another. You could possibly help someone with your experience. I could print all your posts, but thought you wouldn't mind making that a bit easier. So, tks again, and hope to hear from you tomorrow. cf
Posted by S.Bartel on October 27, 2004, at 5:44:59
In reply to I'M FREE - SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT MARKETING, posted by dancingstar on October 26, 2004, at 12:35:38
I am glad to hear that I am not the only one who feels that way. I am beginning to think that I also could have done without this drug. When anyone goes thru a death it's only natural to go thru a grieving process and Effexor XR just brought mine to a complete halt. Had I just gone to counseling and possisbly a grief group session instead of using this horrible drug I believe I would have been OK. I am Efffexor free for about 9 days. I only had about 2 days of diareah, but my brain is still in a fog and I feel like I'm shaking inside and out. I am sick at my stomach most of the time, but that goes along with the Liver disease and I hope that improves some after all the withdrawals go away. I can control a lot of the shaking and panic attacks with bio-feedback. I have practiced this for years and it works well for me. It also works well with my fibromyalgia pain along with water therapy. I take some herbal medicines and herbal tea but my finances are not such that I can afford every one that would help. I only wish we could do something about the way this drug is marketed, but I'm not sure it would do any good unless the Dr.'s were more educated as to the drugs they prescribe. I'm afraid that will always be left up to the patients to investigate their prescribed drugs to make sure they are not going to do them harm. Patients themselves have got to educate themselves. As far as Effexor and Effexor XR go, I think people like us should do something about having it taken off the market. This drug is just too dangerous. I,m sure there are thousands besides us who have run into the same problems with Effexor and Effexor XR.
SammiP.S. I'm still having trouble sleeping!!
Posted by CrazyCO on October 27, 2004, at 11:22:17
In reply to Re: I'M FREE - SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT MARKETING » PoohBear, posted by dancingstar on October 27, 2004, at 0:21:39
I took Effexor for quite a while, and when I came off it I had no withdrawals at all, so the warning is not for everyone, NOT everyone has the terrible symptoms of withdrawal.
Posted by dancingstar on October 27, 2004, at 12:09:24
In reply to Re: I'M FREE - SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT MARKET, posted by CrazyCO on October 27, 2004, at 11:22:17
I don't know what "quite a while" means. I took it for three years. I don't know how much you were taking. I took between 75 and 150 mg. I don't know your background. My family is European. For what it is worth, I've read people with some genetic component have a more difficult time with the drug than others. I don't know for what the drug was prescribed in your case. In mine it was prescribed because I had back pain and because I was tired. (Um, gee, maybe I had fibromyalgia....)
I still feel very strongly that the drug should not be marketed by drug reps to family practice doctors to be given to patients for everything from fibromyalgia and a bad headache to a death in the family. It's a serious drug with potentially deadly reactions both during the time it is taken and while people are trying to stop taking it, and it should only be prescribed by those that know the most about it.
If you escaped from the drug unscathed, consider yourself very fortunate. Then again, perhaps I'm just allergic to it. Who knows? Me and everyone else that has had these problems.
Does anyone else here want to take that chance?
Posted by dancingstar on October 27, 2004, at 12:37:13
In reply to Re: I'M FREE - SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT MARKETING » dancingstar, posted by S.Bartel on October 27, 2004, at 5:44:59
Okay, here's the list...
It works, and I will try to do it with an explanation so you can do it by $$$:
Benadryl (I only wish I had listened sooner) Get, up; get out immediately, and get the children's version. I got it 3 1/2 weeks into this hell. Use as little as possible. It works. You will feel better. What can I say???
samE-400 (Jarrow) Helps with all the stuff you are now missing; brain, joints, liver.
5-HTP - also helps with seratonin
Nordic Naturals Omega 3 (2 capsules a day) It's lemonish and doesn't at all seem like fish in any way; so don't get all pukey just thinking about it. It really helps stabilize your mood.
Okay, now this will take about a week for you to feel, but it's worth it. I'm taking it to also help with the fibro:
From Fatigued to Fantasitc by Enzymatic Therapy - 3 Step Program.
First eat breakfast, maybe some oatmeal with some whey protein powder or some soy & eggwhite and whey protein powder...flavor it however you like.
Take two Enzymatic Therapy Fatigued to Fantastic Adrenal Support and One of their "B" Vitmins and they have this powder that you mix with water or whatever and drink. It tastes pretty awful. And it works really well. After three or four days, I really noticed a difference.
At night they have something that you take to help you get better sleep. It has been seriously pouring rain here, and I have been able get everything done, and I've also been able to work out very hard for the last two days. I am a little tired and sore. I still feel some effects of the withdrawal; but mostly, I feel the pain that I used to feel when I worked out...good pain, the pain I missed, not that horrible, deep inside the muscles and joints pain that I had to live with every single day.
I also take Dr. Michael Hirt's My Best Health AM/PM Vitamins and CardioVite, Jarrow Bone-up, Alpha Lipoic Acid, Co-Q10, MRM Grape Seed Extract.
Maybe most importantly for fibro is to be sure to have your thyroid checked. I haven't got any idea what this is about, but it sees like almost everyone with fibro is low thyroid. And no matter what you do, be sure to get the adrenal support. The withdrawal is putting lots of stress on your kidneys, and I believe that fibro is in part due to maxed out adrenals, usually after some stress when we can't take even a wee bit more, we're at the ends of our emotional ropes, having dealt with everything beyond the best of our ability for all too long...that's when we turn to some antidepressant, the worst possible thing that we can do to our bodies, give it poison in its already burnt out state.
We didn't know any better, but we'll heal. Try a little bit of this. If nothing else, get some Benadryl, please...That and a nap, and you will feel better.
It doesn't take a doctor to know this. Experience told me that this one works :-).
Posted by CrazyCO on October 27, 2004, at 13:42:18
In reply to Re: I'M FREE - SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT MARKET, posted by dancingstar on October 27, 2004, at 12:09:24
I did not mean to discount your obviously serious problems with this drug, nor anyone elses because I have read plenty here on people who have had terrible effects with this drug. I took 225mg for just over a year for major depression. My point of my post was just to let others know that not EVERY person who takes this drug has had a terrible time with it, I think that others here have the right to know both sides of the spectrum. It is only fair to those considering taking it to know that there are positive benefits to this medication, and that they aren't doomed to experience horrible side effects. I know that every person reacts differently to every medication and this is just my PERSONAL experience as your posts were about YOUR personal experience. Everyone should make their own decisions based on all the facts not just those of people with negative outcomes. I hope that you find something in the future that will not only work for you but also not cause you the severe side effects or withdrawal symptoms that you had with effexor.
Posted by dancingstar on October 27, 2004, at 14:17:40
In reply to Re: I'M FREE - SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT MARKET » dancingstar, posted by CrazyCO on October 27, 2004, at 13:42:18
Even if this drug has the possibility of being helpful to someone, if you don't know if you are one of the ones who will be negatively affected, is it worth risking using this drug?
Thanks for your wishes that I find "something" that will work, but I am happy to have found that "nothing" works more effectively. Please spare me from ever having to go near this type of pharmacological drug ever again as I sincerely believe that they should never be used by people that are better helped by psychotherapy and/or diet and exercise. It is a sad commentary that we have come to believe that so many of our problems need to be solved by a "magic" pill.
Posted by Starlight on October 27, 2004, at 14:26:29
In reply to Re: I'M FREE - SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT MARKETING ? dancingstar, posted by S.Bartel on October 27, 2004, at 5:44:59
I take effexor XR and only 75 mgs. But one thing that I've noticed is that my brain seems foggier. I also take 1500 trileptal and 300 lamictal and am trying to figure out when my brain got this way. And it seems to me that it did start with the Effexor. But on the other hand it has really, really helped my depression.
I have to come off of all the drugs soon because my hubbie and I are planning on getting pregnant and I don't want anything in my system when that happens. But I am scared, scared that my brain won't return to the sharpness it had before i took these drugs and scared that I'll slip into a severe depression
starlight.
Posted by corafree on October 27, 2004, at 14:37:51
In reply to Re: I'M FREE - SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT MARKETING » S.Bartel, posted by dancingstar on October 27, 2004, at 12:37:13
It's corafree saying thanks again, and sorry, guess I had your name 'mixed up'. Will print and keep for thought!!
Posted by PoohBear on October 27, 2004, at 16:14:17
In reply to Re: I'M FREE - SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT MARKET, posted by dancingstar on October 27, 2004, at 14:17:40
Yes, it's worth the risk, because not everyone responds well to this or that medication. I am very sensitive to your situation, but I want to be very clear, that the only reason I keep posting on this particular thread is so that people KNOW that Effexor is not BAD for everyone. People who are searching for the truth have a right to hear BOTH sides of the story, not just the negative one, which seems to be the most prevelant one around here.
Best wishes,
Tony
Posted by jujube on October 27, 2004, at 16:33:20
In reply to Re: I'M FREE - SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT MARKET » dancingstar, posted by PoohBear on October 27, 2004, at 16:14:17
I agree with you. Effexor was not good for me. It made me apathetic, lethargic and apprehensive. However, I have friends who have done extremely well on Effexor, and continue to do so. I would hate to see them and others deprived of the chance to improve their quality of life. And, contrary to popular belief, not all depressions can be cured simply by getting some exercise and eating better in the short-term. There is a risk with any medication that the response will be less than adequate, that the side effects will far outweigh the benefits or that a person may have an adverse reaction. I have had bad reactions to certain medications, including over-the-counter medications. So I avoid those medications. I have had adverse reactions to anaesthetic and novacaine. However, if I have to go in for surgery again or have a dental procedure, I will simply warn the doctor of how I react. I appreciate this board for the sharing of experiences, both good and bad. I can then take the information and make an informed decision about a particular medication, in consultation with my doctor. I am not going to go all vigilante because my own experience on a particular drug was not good.
Tamara
> Yes, it's worth the risk, because not everyone responds well to this or that medication. I am very sensitive to your situation, but I want to be very clear, that the only reason I keep posting on this particular thread is so that people KNOW that Effexor is not BAD for everyone. People who are searching for the truth have a right to hear BOTH sides of the story, not just the negative one, which seems to be the most prevelant one around here.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Tony
Posted by Jubilee on October 27, 2004, at 17:08:20
In reply to Re: I'M FREE - SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT MARKETING » dancingstar, posted by corafree on October 26, 2004, at 20:56:00
Tried to answer cora but babble is off.
Yes, elavil is safer with no side affects and is an older anti- dep.. Yes its old, but it kicks dep. and helps sleep and had a mild seditive and is a chronic pain killer also. Beg for it. No bad withdrawals.
You must go off effexor very slow , like 4 or 5 months, lowering a little every week or 10 days. I have had hardly any sideffects this way, and I almost died going off 2 other times. If you can order more (like tell him you changed your mind and you are too depressed and get more effexor and be patient and go off at least over 4 months. After you are off if you can do ten days of prozac it really helps as it has a long shelf life. Get an antidireal. Good meds to help are prozac, anti diareal, anti nasuea(virtigo med), anti histimine nose spray for head aches as it messes with your histamine level also get benadryl. I think I am going to go for another 6 weeks as I started with a bottle of 60-150's and I saved all I poured out as I lowered the dose in a bottle. You can measure so much and throw it in your mouth and wash down w/ water. I just sped up dropping and i've had a light head ache, an some nausea. I wish people would prepare to go off using wisdom to make sure they have a large amount to begin with as dr's just don't understand what people go through. I also also on welbutrin which he left me on so I still have something making seratonin. I tried the 25 mg a week and this was the first time I have been sick at all , and its mild. I usually go two or three weeks on a drop. You must use wisdom and take responsibility for thinking this through as it is your body. You must have patience if you are going to be kind to your body. If I had a refill, and I was you ,I would get it. If I had no refill , I would tell the Dr. I am too depressed and to please order more ASAP and take your self off really slow saving all you pour out. You can measure in a capsul under a lamp light.. Use a calander. I have heard of people dying going too fast from the complecations , so you are fighting for your life I believe. Effexor provides two diff. meds to the brain , thats why there is no replacement for it. It is uniqely dangerous.
I told my Dr how serious the withdrawels were and his plan was to take me off in 6 weeks from 300 a day,for 4 years by giving me some prozac and some 37's, which he did.. I would have been dead or too sick to be writting this. Stop giving dr's the power to play God and think, think, think!!!
True , some people have no withdrawals at all because of their body type. Most addicts or x addicts will struggle due to the lack of an enzime. I hope this has given hope and help to others which someone did for me when I found a effexor petition on-line. It says alot. God Bless you all , Jubilee
Posted by Glory on October 27, 2004, at 17:43:03
In reply to Re: First Drug Holiday--Update, posted by Alara on September 19, 2002, at 22:12:27
How long does it take to stop , I am now on 37.5 one day and two days off. But sometimes I feels funny in my head.
I was taking for hot flashed and for me it was not working since I had them just the same.
So I would like to stop taking this pillsHelp please.
Posted by PoohBear on October 27, 2004, at 17:49:19
In reply to Re: First Drug Holiday--Update, posted by Glory on October 27, 2004, at 17:43:03
I hasten to add that after a year of reading this thread, which goes back to 1999, that I am continually AMAZED that such a potent ANTI-DEPRESSANT as Effexor XR is prescribed for ANYTHING other than depression, and only then for those forms of depression resistant to first-line AD's.
Pain?
Fybromyalga?
Negative press aside, I'm all for truth in advertising!!!
Tony
Posted by dancingstar on October 27, 2004, at 20:31:28
In reply to Uses of Effexor, Dancingstar, et al..., posted by PoohBear on October 27, 2004, at 17:49:19
Perhaps, Tony, you finally get the gist of my message.
It is a very potent, a potentially dangerous drug that we, as somewhat ignorant patients -- at least in the beginning -- take because we trust the medical care that says that it is okay to take this stuff for all sorts of reasons.
I'm almost beginning to think that to be able to stop taking the drug without any problem at all is the exception rather than the norm. Sure, it's great if it helps people. After a number of years, though, how do you really know if it is doing someone any good? Actually, I didn't know if it was doing me any good or any harm when I stopped. I stopped on a whim. Call it a gut instinct. And yes, I think I, too, could easily have died if I weren't as strong as I am. You have your reasons for feeling strongly about this. I have mine, too. Personally, I think mine are better because I don't think that there are any good reasons for choosing this particular drug over other drugs that have not proven to be this difficult to stop taking. I also don't think that doctors are monitoring the information about this kind of withdrawal information closely enough to be aware of it...I will have to have a hand in this, won't I?
Really, what is the difference between this drug and others like it that make it so much more potentially dangerous? Does anyone know?
Posted by dancingstar on October 27, 2004, at 20:36:20
In reply to Re: First Drug Holiday--Update, posted by Glory on October 27, 2004, at 17:43:03
Glory,
It doesn't really work for hot flashes. This is an example of lousy use of a dangerous drug. Sorry, I am supposed to be just giving my NONMEDICAL opinion here, but those are the facts!
If it isn't working, please tell your doctor, and stop taking it now before it has a chance to become more difficult to stop taking it later on. If you must, turn him on to this board, and let him blast me for it. I don't really care. Obviously your doctor isn't a woman.
Posted by dancingstar on October 27, 2004, at 20:37:53
In reply to Uses of Effexor, Dancingstar, et al..., posted by PoohBear on October 27, 2004, at 17:49:19
...hot flashes?????????????
Posted by Carlos C on October 27, 2004, at 22:59:29
In reply to Re: I'M FREE - SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT MARKET, posted by dancingstar on October 27, 2004, at 12:09:24
I've been through this hell myself. For what it's worth GHB (sold as Sodium Oxybate/Xyrem in US, legal w/prescription) has been proven very effective in treating fibromyalgia. Along with many other things. It is, contrary to popular belief, extremely safe. It's non-toxic, has extremely low addiction rate, and no physical widthdrawl. I have been using it for years. I know there will be many nay-sayers. There is a lot of propaganda and misinformation out about this (ghb). That's all I'm going to say. If you would like to know more you can "babble message" me. Good luck. I am glad you're feeling better.
Posted by dancingstar on October 28, 2004, at 2:42:08
In reply to I know I keep plugging at this but... » dancingstar, posted by Carlos C on October 27, 2004, at 22:59:29
Thanks, Carlos. I will look into it. Now that is one that I have never heard of nor would I ever have put that together. I would think that it could possibly be more trouble to deal with when it comes to pharmacies and the like than it is worth...as is so often the case.
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