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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 39. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Michael Bell on October 17, 2004, at 13:48:24
I finally got my BUPRENORPHINE in the mail on Friday. Also I got a package slip for what I think is my order of PROGLUMIDE.
Regarding the buprenorphine, let me just qualify it by saying that I'm fully aware of the risks of self-treating with opioids. But in the past I've used codeine, Perduretas and percocet for weeks at a time and had absolutely no problems discontinuing these. I never even had the desire to start using them again. Strangely, even though I've used many potentially "addictive" substances, including Adderall, pain killers and alcohol, I've never felt the urge to abuse any of them. As such, I think Buprenorphine might be a relatively safe and perhaps excellent tool in combatting SP. So far the results have been quite positive regarding benzo-induced anhedonia and sociability.
But what I'm REALLY curious about is the Proglumide, which is a CCK-B antagonist. I believe that it could be a completely new approach to addressing the social defeat and reward deficiency aspects of social phobia. Or it amount to nothing. We'll see.
I'll keep all babblers updated on the effects, if any, that Buprenorphine and Proglumide have on SP and reward deficiency.
Good luck to all.
Posted by TheOutsider on October 17, 2004, at 14:53:15
In reply to THEY'RE HERE!!, posted by Michael Bell on October 17, 2004, at 13:48:24
> I finally got my BUPRENORPHINE in the mail on Friday. Also I got a package slip for what I think is my order of PROGLUMIDE.
>
> Regarding the buprenorphine
>
> But what I'm REALLY curious about is the Proglumide, which is a CCK-B antagonist. I believe that it could be a completely new approach to addressing the social defeat and reward deficiency aspects of social phobia. Or it amount to nothing. We'll see.
>
> I'll keep all babblers updated on the effects, if any, that Buprenorphine and Proglumide have on SP and reward deficiency.
>
> Good luck to all.Thanks Mike, its good to here from someone with as many ideas as you it inspires me a little since I'm feeling really down as a result of my Social anxiety.
Unfortunatly I have to say I tried Buprenorphine at 100mgs, but it did not help my SA
Posted by Michael Bell on October 19, 2004, at 18:32:31
In reply to Re: THEY'RE HERE!!, posted by TheOutsider on October 17, 2004, at 14:53:15
Did you say 100 mgs of Buprenorphine!! I thought the recommended dosage was .2 to .4 mg per day. Are you sure you don't mean Bupropion or some other drug?
> > I finally got my BUPRENORPHINE in the mail on Friday. Also I got a package slip for what I think is my order of PROGLUMIDE.
> >
> > Regarding the buprenorphine
> >
> > But what I'm REALLY curious about is the Proglumide, which is a CCK-B antagonist. I believe that it could be a completely new approach to addressing the social defeat and reward deficiency aspects of social phobia. Or it amount to nothing. We'll see.
> >
> > I'll keep all babblers updated on the effects, if any, that Buprenorphine and Proglumide have on SP and reward deficiency.
> >
> > Good luck to all.
>
> Thanks Mike, its good to here from someone with as many ideas as you it inspires me a little since I'm feeling really down as a result of my Social anxiety.
> Unfortunatly I have to say I tried Buprenorphine at 100mgs, but it did not help my SA
>
Posted by jboud24 on October 20, 2004, at 0:55:38
In reply to Re: THEY'RE HERE!! » TheOutsider, posted by Michael Bell on October 19, 2004, at 18:32:31
How is the buprenorphine working out Michael. I'm interested in the effect of opiates and social anxiety. Please give me a heads up if you find it works well for depression and/or especially social anxiety. And if you could, or have the experience, compare its effects to hydrocodone or codeine.
Thanks, and best of luck
Justin
Posted by J. Backer on October 21, 2004, at 10:41:33
In reply to THEY'RE HERE!!, posted by Michael Bell on October 17, 2004, at 13:48:24
hey whats up. actually iv been trying to get a prescription to Subutex. i am an opiate-addict, been one scince 15. got off methadone stayed clean then got back in...ect i cant get back on methadone because of the timing of the clincs and i also dont want to deal with that strong of a deppendancy. but i am very seroius about getting buprenorphine matenence. can this be done online? because the closest addiction docter is like an hour away from me. (and i dont have a car) anyway if this is uncool to post on the boards. email me at cyberpunkspike@yahoo.com
seroisly im in need of info.
peace J
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 21, 2004, at 23:44:34
In reply to Re: THEY'RE HERE!!, posted by J. Backer on October 21, 2004, at 10:41:33
> hey whats up. actually iv been trying to get a prescription to Subutex. i am an opiate-addict, been one scince 15...
Sorry if it's confusing here, but I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding opiate addiction to Psycho-Babble Substance Use. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/subs/20041013/msgs/405705.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Michael Bell on October 23, 2004, at 14:15:13
In reply to Re: THEY'RE HERE!!, posted by jboud24 on October 20, 2004, at 0:55:38
Well, it's only been about a week since I started taking Buprenorphine and Proglumide for social phobia, so bear in mind this update is by no means conclusive.
Here's what I've found:
BUPRENORPHINE: I only took it for about 4 days, .4 mg/day under the tongue. The effects are similar to codeine, except there's also an antidepressive type of feel to it, and it doesn't cause as much spaciness as other opioids I've tried (codeine, percocet, etc.) It's similar to other opioids in that it definitely reduces has an affect on the effects of outside stressors. Things that used to be a big deal just don't seem like such a big deal when on buprenorphine. The reason I only took it for about 4 days is because it caused stomach cramps, diarreah and some insomnia. Also, I wanted to see what the effects of Proglumide are without the influence of Buprenorphine. So is it good for Social Phobia? More time is needed before I can give you a definitive answer.PROGLUMIDE: I'm very excited about this drug so far. It's only been a few days that I've taken this after discontinuing Buprenorphine (for the time being), but already I can tell you of some effects. First, Proglumide completely wiped out the irritable bowel symptoms I've been experiening for about 2 years. Even when I was on 1mg/day of Klonopin, I would get very anxious right before a bowel movement (sorry if this is too much info). The proglumide has ended that completely. Also, it has an anxiolytic action on its own, in that I don't anticipate social defeat when on it. The Klonopin is great for wiping out the physical symptoms of anxiety, but I still would have that feeling that my social interactions wouldn't go well. The Proglumide has lessened the anticipation of social defeat, so in a way I believe it could truly be prosocial. However, I want to give it a few more weeks to make sure this is not a placebo effect, and I'll update the board in the future.
> How is the buprenorphine working out Michael. I'm interested in the effect of opiates and social anxiety. Please give me a heads up if you find it works well for depression and/or especially social anxiety. And if you could, or have the experience, compare its effects to hydrocodone or codeine.
>
> Thanks, and best of luck
>
> Justin
Posted by DynaUnity333 on October 24, 2004, at 6:43:14
In reply to Re: Update: BUPRENORHINE and PROGLUMIDE for SP » jboud24, posted by Michael Bell on October 23, 2004, at 14:15:13
Michael, please keep this update going.
I am very interested in your experiences with these two medications, and am on the verge of ordering some of the Proglumide.
Your updates will prove to be invaluable though as to whther i try to get the overly expensive Buprenorphine for a trial so keep it up :)
Posted by ed_uk on October 24, 2004, at 7:26:43
In reply to Re: Update: BUPRENORHINE and PROGLUMIDE for SP, posted by DynaUnity333 on October 24, 2004, at 6:43:14
Dan, my friend...
Please don't start taking anything else until you've waited to see how the 80mg librium effects you!!!! You won't know what you're benefiting from (or getting side effects from).
Ed
Posted by jboud24 on October 24, 2004, at 14:52:23
In reply to Re: Update: BUPRENORHINE and PROGLUMIDE for SP » jboud24, posted by Michael Bell on October 23, 2004, at 14:15:13
Thanks Mike for the update. I'm sorry the bup. didn't work out right now. Perhaps with time the bowel problems and cramping may lessen. It's also very interesting about Proglumide. Tell me, are there any subjective psychological effects from it? I know its method of action is related to that of DXM and ketamine, so I'm curious if it shares any of the amnestic or psychotomimetic action of these two chemicals. If it does, then I definitely don't think it would help with my anxiety issues.
Thanks again, and update us often on your progress.
Justin
Posted by Carlos C on October 25, 2004, at 10:59:04
In reply to Re: Update: BUPRENORHINE and PROGLUMIDE for SP » jboud24, posted by Michael Bell on October 23, 2004, at 14:15:13
I find the it fastest acting and most effective for SP and depression. The best part is that it has no toxic effects on the body like most SP meds and the opioids you've tried. GHB is a nutrient and that has many other positive effects on the body. Here's a recent post I wrote when someone asked me to compare it to benzo's ;
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20041018/msgs/406109.html
Just a suggestion.
Posted by DynaUnity333 on October 25, 2004, at 14:19:50
In reply to Have you tried Xyrem (GHB)?, posted by Carlos C on October 25, 2004, at 10:59:04
I can't believe doctors are prescribing GHB for anxiety disorders.
Its such a road to disaster.
Deadly interactions with alcohol, levels needed for the same effects increase with daily use, potential for death on overdose is extremely high, with the window of safety and hazard being so small.
Its very very good for SA on a one time basis but taking it daily, well..... Whatever is good for you, just take care please.
Posted by Carlos C on October 25, 2004, at 21:09:02
In reply to Re: Have you tried Xyrem (GHB)?, posted by DynaUnity333 on October 25, 2004, at 14:19:50
> I can't believe doctors are prescribing GHB for anxiety disorders.
>
> Its such a road to disaster.
>
> Deadly interactions with alcohol, levels needed for the same effects increase with daily use, potential for death on overdose is extremely high, with the window of safety and hazard being so small.
>
> Its very very good for SA on a one time basis but taking it daily, well..... Whatever is good for you, just take care please.That is simply not true. Potential for death is practically non-exsistant. You bought a heavy dose of propaganda. Did you even read my link to my post?
Posted by DynaUnity333 on October 26, 2004, at 3:07:15
In reply to Re: Have you tried Xyrem (GHB)?, posted by Carlos C on October 25, 2004, at 21:09:02
> > I can't believe doctors are prescribing GHB for anxiety disorders.
> >
> > Its such a road to disaster.
> >
> > Deadly interactions with alcohol, levels needed for the same effects increase with daily use, potential for death on overdose is extremely high, with the window of safety and hazard being so small.
> >
> > Its very very good for SA on a one time basis but taking it daily, well..... Whatever is good for you, just take care please.
>
> That is simply not true. Potential for death is practically non-exsistant. You bought a heavy dose of propaganda. Did you even read my link to my post?
>
>
I watched someone die in a night club from having too much GHB and one bottled beer.I have had GHB when it was legal, and it is stunning for social anxiety, but you i wouldn't go near the stuff ever again after what i saw that night, especially considering the guy didn't really do much wrong.
This is a fad and it will pass, (not necassarily for you), but in general.
Posted by BradD on October 26, 2004, at 8:35:29
In reply to Re: Have you tried Xyrem (GHB)?, posted by DynaUnity333 on October 26, 2004, at 3:07:15
> > > I can't believe doctors are prescribing GHB for anxiety disorders.
> > >
> > > Its such a road to disaster.
> > >
> > > Deadly interactions with alcohol, levels needed for the same effects increase with daily use, potential for death on overdose is extremely high, with the window of safety and hazard being so small.
> > >
> > > Its very very good for SA on a one time basis but taking it daily, well..... Whatever is good for you, just take care please.
> >
> > That is simply not true. Potential for death is practically non-exsistant. You bought a heavy dose of propaganda. Did you even read my link to my post?
> >
> >
>
>
> I watched someone die in a night club from having too much GHB and one bottled beer.
Why are you blaming GHB for the death and not alcohol?Please check (apart from Carlos links) www.xyrem.us
Posted by DynaUnity333 on October 26, 2004, at 8:53:37
In reply to Re: Have you tried Xyrem (GHB)? » DynaUnity333, posted by BradD on October 26, 2004, at 8:35:29
I'm not blaming GHB for the death, jeez i hate the Internet at times.
i was saying that GHB is a very very dangerous medication and taking enough of it can (due to certain circumstances certainly lead to death).
In the case i was referring to the effects opf the GHB lowered his common sense enough to take alcohol with it even though even the shops where we used to be able to buy it warned us not to EVER drink with it for fear of breathing difficulties.
The fact that GHB has a response within minutes of ingesting it and the fact that it is robust can lead to many complications that would definitely not arise if the user was of a normal state of mind.
I don't doubt the benefits, have felt them myself full force, but i just can't see it being a long term solution to any anxiety disorder cand imho really can create serious situations out of nowhere.
Posted by Carlos C on October 26, 2004, at 17:12:49
In reply to Re: Have you tried Xyrem (GHB)?, posted by DynaUnity333 on October 26, 2004, at 8:53:37
Why does everyone that supposedly die from GHB die at a club? I'm calling BS. Whatever that person took and "died from" was not GHB. You're WAY more likely to die from alcohol.
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 26, 2004, at 17:40:08
In reply to GHB kills? Give it a break. » DynaUnity333, posted by Carlos C on October 26, 2004, at 17:12:49
Posted by DynaUnity333 on October 27, 2004, at 7:30:14
In reply to GHB kills? Give it a break. » DynaUnity333, posted by Carlos C on October 26, 2004, at 17:12:49
> Why does everyone that supposedly die from GHB die at a club? I'm calling BS. Whatever that person took and "died from" was not GHB. You're WAY more likely to die from alcohol.
First of all don't get defensive because this so called wonderpill has problems associated with it.
Back in them days GHB was very easily and legaly obtained from certain shops in ever city in the UK, and it was phamaceutical grade stuff.
The guy dies because he mixed GHB with alcohol, its as simple as that.
The guy would also not have done such a thing had he not been HIGH on GHB because thats what it is, a HIGH.
This is why dosing needs to be done continually throughout the day because you come down from the drug very quickly.
And FYI the blood level required for respiratory arrest with alcohol is substantially higher (rediculously so) then with GHB, so your (you are more likely to die with alcohol) statement is a little silly, although i understand you being defensive.
By all means take it and enjoy it (truly i mean that), but it will NOT be your cure for social anxiety in the long term, and the withdrawal from it if you keep your bloodlevels of the drug at a continual level will be noticeable, but these are things you will find out in time.
Personally i think GHB as a drastic measure for performance anxiety would be spot on although the user would be inclined to do silly things at the peak, plus he would have to keep dosing which would make it problematic (if the performance was over a long period of time.)
As a long term measure, personally, i find it absurd that it has been prescribed.
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 27, 2004, at 17:29:43
In reply to Re: GHB kills? Give it a break., posted by DynaUnity333 on October 27, 2004, at 7:30:14
> your ... statement is a little silly, although i understand you being defensive.
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. The last time you were blocked, it was for 1 week, so this time, it's for 3.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Michael Bell on October 28, 2004, at 0:08:16
In reply to Re: blocked for 3 weeks » DynaUnity333, posted by Dr. Bob on October 27, 2004, at 17:29:43
Regarding GHB, I haven't tried it, but I imagine it's a true social phobia killer since it increases GABA release (indirectly through stimulation of GHB receptors), increases serotonin turnover rate (not to be confused with increasing serotonin levels) and has rewarding properties via mu-opioid activity. Also, the dopamine release upon waking is a plus. But I'm staying away from it until they have a cheap, extended release version with proven safety.
Regarding the PROGLUMIDE, the only other med I'm taking now with it is .5 mg Klonopin every other day. The Buprenorphine is completely out of my system now. Therefore starting tomorrow, I'm going to increase the Proglumide dose to 1200-1600 mg a day so that I can truly isolate the effects its having and make a decision about its value in the fight against Social Phobia.
Posted by BradD on October 28, 2004, at 0:17:44
In reply to GHB, Proglumide, etc., posted by Michael Bell on October 28, 2004, at 0:08:16
n/m
Posted by Carlos C on October 28, 2004, at 0:26:15
In reply to GHB, Proglumide, etc., posted by Michael Bell on October 28, 2004, at 0:08:16
> Regarding GHB, I haven't tried it, but I imagine it's a true social phobia killer since it increases GABA release (indirectly through stimulation of GHB receptors), increases serotonin turnover rate (not to be confused with increasing serotonin levels) and has rewarding properties via mu-opioid activity. Also, the dopamine release upon waking is a plus. But I'm staying away from it until they have a cheap, extended release version with proven safety.
>
There is a company currently working on a formulation to extend GHBs duration. Besides that, safety has been proven. If you "over-dose" you just get very good restful sleep. This should never happen if you accurately measure your dose. It's less toxic than Tylenol. In fact it shows no toxicity in the human body and has many positve physical and mental benefits to boot. Unfotunately it is extremely expensive though. Lucily my health coverage covers it (for now).As has been emphasized, the overall safety of GHB is well-established, and no deaths attributable to GHB have been reported over the forty year period that this compound has been in use [Vickers, 1969; Chin and Kreutzer, 1992].Of all adverse reactions that had been reported in the United States all were followed by rapid and complete recovery [Chin and Kreutzer, 1992]. Unlike a large proportion of other drugs including alcohol and even Tylenol, GHB has no toxic effects on the liver, kidney or other organs [Vickers, 1969; Chin and Kreutzer, 1992]. One program of sleep therapy using six to eight grams daily for a period of eight to ten days produced no side effects. Vickers [1969] even reports that doses as high as twenty to thirty grams per twenty-four hour period have been used for several days without negative consequences In the Canadian studies of narcolepsy mentioned earlier, the nightly use of two to six teaspoons (one teaspoon equaling roughly 2.5 grams) for several years resulted in no reports of long-term adverse effects, or problems with issues of addiction or dependence. In one of these studies, one patient inadvertently ingested fifteen teaspoons without adverse consequence “other than deep sedation and headache the next day” [Chin and Kreutzer, 1992]. And in France, sub-anesthetic oral doses were used by “a large number of patients for about six years” without untoward effect [Laborit, 1972].
http://www.ceri.com/ghbpage.shtml
Posted by Michael Bell on October 28, 2004, at 0:42:51
In reply to Michael: did Buprenorphine work well ? (n/m) » Michael Bell, posted by BradD on October 28, 2004, at 0:17:44
Bupe seemed like a mixture between a mild opiate and a mild-moderate antidepressant (but not of the SSRI type). It definitely decreased ruminative thoughts and worrying in general. If you've responded well to painkillers in the past (Percocet, codeine, etc.), you'll probably like the Buprenorphine, unless you are a recent addict, in which case you might find it ineffective or unpleasant, or so I've heard. Another difference between Buprenorphine and codeine is that it doesn't seem to cause as much dysphoria.
For social phobia, the jury's still out. I only used it for 4 days due to severe stomach cramps and diarrhea issues. This may have been a result of mixing the bupe with Proglumide, which is a gastric receptor antagonist.
Anyway, like I posted before, I am going to take only the Proglumide for the next 7-12 days to isolate the physical and psychological effects of that drug. Then I will do the same with buprenorphine. Once I am satisfied about what each particular drug is doing, I will post a more informative follow-up.
Posted by Iansf on October 28, 2004, at 20:17:13
In reply to GHB is proven safe. » Michael Bell, posted by Carlos C on October 28, 2004, at 0:26:15
Could you please clarify something for me. Even if GHB is not dangerous on its own, is it dangerous with alcohol, or were those stories trumped up as well? Thanks.
> > Regarding GHB, I haven't tried it, but I imagine it's a true social phobia killer since it increases GABA release (indirectly through stimulation of GHB receptors), increases serotonin turnover rate (not to be confused with increasing serotonin levels) and has rewarding properties via mu-opioid activity. Also, the dopamine release upon waking is a plus. But I'm staying away from it until they have a cheap, extended release version with proven safety.
> >
> There is a company currently working on a formulation to extend GHBs duration. Besides that, safety has been proven. If you "over-dose" you just get very good restful sleep. This should never happen if you accurately measure your dose. It's less toxic than Tylenol. In fact it shows no toxicity in the human body and has many positve physical and mental benefits to boot. Unfotunately it is extremely expensive though. Lucily my health coverage covers it (for now).
>
> As has been emphasized, the overall safety of GHB is well-established, and no deaths attributable to GHB have been reported over the forty year period that this compound has been in use [Vickers, 1969; Chin and Kreutzer, 1992].Of all adverse reactions that had been reported in the United States all were followed by rapid and complete recovery [Chin and Kreutzer, 1992]. Unlike a large proportion of other drugs including alcohol and even Tylenol, GHB has no toxic effects on the liver, kidney or other organs [Vickers, 1969; Chin and Kreutzer, 1992]. One program of sleep therapy using six to eight grams daily for a period of eight to ten days produced no side effects. Vickers [1969] even reports that doses as high as twenty to thirty grams per twenty-four hour period have been used for several days without negative consequences In the Canadian studies of narcolepsy mentioned earlier, the nightly use of two to six teaspoons (one teaspoon equaling roughly 2.5 grams) for several years resulted in no reports of long-term adverse effects, or problems with issues of addiction or dependence. In one of these studies, one patient inadvertently ingested fifteen teaspoons without adverse consequence “other than deep sedation and headache the next day” [Chin and Kreutzer, 1992]. And in France, sub-anesthetic oral doses were used by “a large number of patients for about six years” without untoward effect [Laborit, 1972].
>
> http://www.ceri.com/ghbpage.shtml
>
>
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