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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by gardenergirl on October 2, 2004, at 1:38:49
No, I'm not offering words of sappy wisdom. Actually, I've got the nastiest cold I've had in years. I miss decongestants. I want my mommy!
Anyone know of any soups that are commercially available that are okay for MAOI users? I've read the ingredients of most brand name chicken noodle and other soups, and they all seem to have chicken broth, which may include being prepared with the gizzards. That would be bad. And bouillion.
I'm a bit nervous about this. Any tried and true examples? 'cause I feel like utter doo doo.
Thanks in advance. (blows nose and coughs heavily)
gg
Posted by King Vultan on October 2, 2004, at 10:27:33
In reply to chicken soup for MAOI users?, posted by gardenergirl on October 2, 2004, at 1:38:49
I do not believe either chicken gizzards or bouillon as ingredients present a problem by themselves (or together), as I see no reason why either would contain high amounts of tyramine. Chicken liver--that is a different story, and this should only be consumed if known to be fresh. One of the references I use indicates that restrictions on beef and chicken bouillon for MAOI users is unnecessary (Table 7):
http://www.vh.org/adult/provider/psychiatry/CPS/19.html
Hope that pulls up okay, as I am home on my primitive webtv and had to type it by hand without being able to verify it worked.
Todd
Posted by Sad Panda on October 2, 2004, at 11:50:54
In reply to chicken soup for MAOI users?, posted by gardenergirl on October 2, 2004, at 1:38:49
It all depends how fresh the soup is, canned from the supermaket is more than likely OK, but it wouldn't hurt to use caution & try a low doseage first. Fresh organs would be fine too, but organs go bad a lot faster than meat.
Cheers,
Paul.
Posted by cosis on October 2, 2004, at 13:16:59
In reply to chicken soup for MAOI users?, posted by gardenergirl on October 2, 2004, at 1:38:49
> No, I'm not offering words of sappy wisdom. Actually, I've got the nastiest cold I've had in years. I miss decongestants. I want my mommy!
>
> Anyone know of any soups that are commercially available that are okay for MAOI users? I've read the ingredients of most brand name chicken noodle and other soups, and they all seem to have chicken broth, which may include being prepared with the gizzards. That would be bad. And bouillion.
>
> I'm a bit nervous about this. Any tried and true examples? 'cause I feel like utter doo doo.
>
> Thanks in advance. (blows nose and coughs heavily)
>
> gg
I admire your sticking to the diet, I don't think I have ever stuck to it except in the beginning...
Posted by gardenergirl on October 2, 2004, at 17:36:43
In reply to Re: chicken soup for MAOI users? » gardenergirl, posted by King Vultan on October 2, 2004, at 10:27:33
Thanks for input, actually I meant giblets, although maybe that's the same thing as gizzards. Anyway, I had a reaction at Thanksgiving to dressing that had them in it. But buillion is okay? Maybe I'll try some Campbells.
Thanks again,
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on October 2, 2004, at 17:42:05
In reply to Re: chicken soup for MAOI users?, posted by Sad Panda on October 2, 2004, at 11:50:54
Thanks Sad Panda. I actually really dislike organs, so that usually is no problem for me.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on October 2, 2004, at 17:42:42
In reply to Re: chicken soup for MAOI users?, posted by cosis on October 2, 2004, at 13:16:59
thanks, I'm glad you haven't had any problems.
gg
Posted by iris2 on October 2, 2004, at 23:17:21
In reply to Re: chicken soup for MAOI users? » cosis, posted by gardenergirl on October 2, 2004, at 17:42:42
I stuck to the diet stringently. I had several spontaneous reactions so I had motivation. I cannot imagine thast I would worry about the amount of tyromine in boiled gizzards. Watch for the food preservatives. But i always ws over strict so they are probably fine. I ate almost no canned or frozen foods.
irene
Posted by Sad Panda on October 3, 2004, at 10:59:15
In reply to Re: chicken soup for MAOI users? » Sad Panda, posted by gardenergirl on October 2, 2004, at 17:42:05
> Thanks Sad Panda. I actually really dislike organs, so that usually is no problem for me.
>
> gg
>Yes, but the organs/gizzards/giblets remain inside the chicken carcass when you chuck it in the stockpot. Not sure if it's testes or kidneys that get left behind.
The diet thing sort of turns me away from MAOI's because it can be so hit & miss. I like Chinese foods, but the really good places uses masterstocks which could be years old. Some masterstocks are so old it gets passed along from one generation to the next.
Cheers,
Paul.
Posted by ron1953 on October 4, 2004, at 13:23:51
In reply to Re: chicken soup for MAOI users? » gardenergirl, posted by King Vultan on October 2, 2004, at 10:27:33
Todd:
The simple solution is to make your own chicken broth. Take a chicken carcass (stripped, cooked chicken which you just ate) or some chicken parts, add to 4 quarts of water, add some salt and pepper (if you like) and simmer about 2-3 hours. Pour through a strainer to separate the broth. Bingo! If you want chicken soup instead of broth, add some onions, carrots and celery, remove the bones after cooking, bingo again! (you can also add egg noodles in the last 20 minutes of cooking). Freeze the leftovers for later. Healthier and tastes better than prepared junk.
Ron (son of a real Jewish mother)
Hey, new board - PB Cooking!
Posted by gardenergirl on October 5, 2004, at 19:00:55
In reply to Re: chicken soup for MAOI users? Simple solution. » King Vultan, posted by ron1953 on October 4, 2004, at 13:23:51
Ron,
I did this once! It was very satisfying...however, it doesn't keep all that well. And I was too sick to make it myself this time. I suppose I need to somehow keep some onhand. Or find that darned cooking software and install it on my husband. :)gg
Posted by ron1953 on October 5, 2004, at 20:35:07
In reply to Re: chicken soup for MAOI users? Simple solution. » ron1953, posted by gardenergirl on October 5, 2004, at 19:00:55
Keeps frozen well. Even make ice cubes out of it for recipes that require a small amount.
Posted by gardenergirl on October 6, 2004, at 12:07:31
In reply to Re: chicken soup for MAOI users? Simple solution., posted by ron1953 on October 5, 2004, at 20:35:07
I did freeze stock, but the recipe I used said only freeze for 2 months. How long have you safely kept it frozen?
Thanks,
gg
Posted by ron1953 on October 7, 2004, at 6:40:16
In reply to Re: chicken soup for MAOI users? Simple solution. » ron1953, posted by gardenergirl on October 6, 2004, at 12:07:31
gg:
Maybe 3-4 months. But I try to use all frozen food within 2 months because although food can be frozen safely for longer periods, it has to be at or below zero degrees, like in a controlled commercial storage freezer, not a household freezer. 2 months is still a pretty long time.
Ron
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 9, 2004, at 15:49:18
In reply to Re: chicken soup for MAOI users? Simple solution. » ron1953, posted by gardenergirl on October 6, 2004, at 12:07:31
> I did freeze stock, but the recipe I used said only freeze for 2 months. How long have you safely kept it frozen?
>
> Thanks,
> ggThe key, IMHO, is storing chicken stock without any air in the container. I just use heavy duty zipper freezer bags, and squeeze all the air out before I freeze them. All summer long, if I'm precooking chicken for the barbecue, or just boiling up wing tips or backs or whatever, I just save up the stock from the pot. Come winter, I've got oodles of stock for chicken soup. My kids literally fight over my soup, and some if it is made from stock that's a lot more than two months old. The fat can get a little old-smelling, but I don't defat the stock until I'm making the soup. I can't imagine it not being safe to use, just that the flavours can get a little off in prolonged storage. A little parsley eliminates any off-flavours, anyway.
Lar
Posted by Sad Panda on October 10, 2004, at 6:41:49
In reply to Re: chicken soup for MAOI users? Simple solution. » gardenergirl, posted by Larry Hoover on October 9, 2004, at 15:49:18
> > I did freeze stock, but the recipe I used said only freeze for 2 months. How long have you safely kept it frozen?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > gg
>
> The key, IMHO, is storing chicken stock without any air in the container. I just use heavy duty zipper freezer bags, and squeeze all the air out before I freeze them. All summer long, if I'm precooking chicken for the barbecue, or just boiling up wing tips or backs or whatever, I just save up the stock from the pot. Come winter, I've got oodles of stock for chicken soup. My kids literally fight over my soup, and some if it is made from stock that's a lot more than two months old. The fat can get a little old-smelling, but I don't defat the stock until I'm making the soup. I can't imagine it not being safe to use, just that the flavours can get a little off in prolonged storage. A little parsley eliminates any off-flavours, anyway.
>
> Lar
>Sorry to but in, but wouldn't chicken stock that has developed a funny smell and/or taste be highly suspect for tyramine content?
I also think that if the cheese has any sort of smell or flavour then it would be wise to avoid it too.
Cheers,
Paul.
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 10, 2004, at 8:45:17
In reply to Re: chicken soup for MAOI users? Simple solution. » Larry Hoover, posted by Sad Panda on October 10, 2004, at 6:41:49
> Sorry to but in, but wouldn't chicken stock that has developed a funny smell and/or taste be highly suspect for tyramine content?
>
> I also think that if the cheese has any sort of smell or flavour then it would be wise to avoid it too.
>
> Cheers,
> Paul.Tyramine is a biological product. You need fluid water to support bacterial biochemistry. That's why freezing works to preserve food.
Off tastes from freezing are caused by oxidative degradation and water loss (such as by freezer burn). The rate of oxidation is slowed by temperature reduction (roughly halved for each 18 Fahrenheit decline in temperature), but not prevented altogether. Unsaturated fats slowly oxidize, and our noses are very sensitive to the products of those reactions because they can be indicative of food spoilage. (When we invented the freezer, we kind of messed with evolutionary drive. These oxidative products are not caused by bacteria, but our noses and brains don't know that.)
Off tastes due to freezer burn are caused by cell rupture from the direct contact of air with the frozen food. Water leaves the surface even from frozen foods, via sublimation. That's why many frozen foods are vacuum packed. Any air in the package is bad news. That's why I am religious about getting air out of the packages I freeze.
You could do an experiment. Freeze e.g. a whole fish just in a plastic freezer bag. Freeze an identical fish in a bag with sufficient water to totally envelop the fish, and with no air inside the bag. Wait six months, and thaw the fish. The quality of the fish will be extraordinarily different.
Freezer degradation is not the same thing as bacterial action, so tyramine content is unaffected by freezing. Only during thawing, when fluid water is reformed, is bacterial action a concern. That's when tyramine can form.
Lar
Posted by gardenergirl on October 10, 2004, at 23:57:02
In reply to Re: chicken soup for MAOI users? Simple solution. » Sad Panda, posted by Larry Hoover on October 10, 2004, at 8:45:17
Thanks for the ideas and the explanation. Now I wish I hadn't tossed the six or so frozen cups of stock I had. They were pretty well solid stock and no air. :(
gg
Posted by Sad Panda on October 11, 2004, at 5:56:06
In reply to Re: chicken soup for MAOI users? Simple solution. » Sad Panda, posted by Larry Hoover on October 10, 2004, at 8:45:17
> > Sorry to but in, but wouldn't chicken stock that has developed a funny smell and/or taste be highly suspect for tyramine content?
> >
> > I also think that if the cheese has any sort of smell or flavour then it would be wise to avoid it too.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Paul.
>
> Tyramine is a biological product. You need fluid water to support bacterial biochemistry. That's why freezing works to preserve food.
>
> Off tastes from freezing are caused by oxidative degradation and water loss (such as by freezer burn). The rate of oxidation is slowed by temperature reduction (roughly halved for each 18 Fahrenheit decline in temperature), but not prevented altogether. Unsaturated fats slowly oxidize, and our noses are very sensitive to the products of those reactions because they can be indicative of food spoilage. (When we invented the freezer, we kind of messed with evolutionary drive. These oxidative products are not caused by bacteria, but our noses and brains don't know that.)
>
> Off tastes due to freezer burn are caused by cell rupture from the direct contact of air with the frozen food. Water leaves the surface even from frozen foods, via sublimation. That's why many frozen foods are vacuum packed. Any air in the package is bad news. That's why I am religious about getting air out of the packages I freeze.
>
> You could do an experiment. Freeze e.g. a whole fish just in a plastic freezer bag. Freeze an identical fish in a bag with sufficient water to totally envelop the fish, and with no air inside the bag. Wait six months, and thaw the fish. The quality of the fish will be extraordinarily different.
>
> Freezer degradation is not the same thing as bacterial action, so tyramine content is unaffected by freezing. Only during thawing, when fluid water is reformed, is bacterial action a concern. That's when tyramine can form.
>
> Lar
>I bow to your superior wisdom. :)
Cheers,
Paul.
This is the end of the thread.
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