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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by linkadge on August 16, 2004, at 18:11:41
Dopamine is oftentimes thought of as the ultimated motivational chemical. Sometimes however, too much dopamine can leave you apathetic and anhedonic.
At first dopamine boost can leave you energised, but after this (for me at least) too much catecholamine can make you hyperaware of your problems. Too much catecholamine can make your problems seem more looming and impending than they really are. Perhaps a little bit of d2 receptor blockade would reverse the deepness and intensity of catacholaine enhancement.
All I know is this, whenever I take a dopamine enhancing medication, it makes me a little more motivated at first, but soon enough it is hard to get away from my problems for while. Their intence presence looms and makes me feel helpless.
I think that dopamine is only one piece of the motivation/anhedonia puzzle.
Linkadge
Posted by mike lynch on August 16, 2004, at 22:14:18
In reply to sometimes too much dopamine causes anhedonia, posted by linkadge on August 16, 2004, at 18:11:41
> Dopamine is oftentimes thought of as the ultimated motivational chemical. Sometimes however, too much dopamine can leave you apathetic and anhedonic.
>
> At first dopamine boost can leave you energised, but after this (for me at least) too much catecholamine can make you hyperaware of your problems. Too much catecholamine can make your problems seem more looming and impending than they really are. Perhaps a little bit of d2 receptor blockade would reverse the deepness and intensity of catacholaine enhancement.
>
> All I know is this, whenever I take a dopamine enhancing medication, it makes me a little more motivated at first, but soon enough it is hard to get away from my problems for while. Their intence presence looms and makes me feel helpless.
>
> I think that dopamine is only one piece of the motivation/anhedonia puzzle.
>
> Linkadge
I knew this was true>!!! I always noticed when I took my adderal I blew things out of proportion and made small problems much worse then they actually are..I placed every little problem in the worst possible case scenario..hence I became f'n depressed..part of the reason why I blamed the adderral on my depression in the first place...Now I know my theory has merit to it...thanks for posting this..it just confirms my thoughts..Adderall can be either great for you or just equally as horrible..
Posted by mike lynch on August 16, 2004, at 22:50:31
In reply to Re: sometimes too much dopamine causes anhedonia, posted by mike lynch on August 16, 2004, at 22:14:18
so basically major rumination is what it comes down to..
Posted by KaraS on August 17, 2004, at 1:06:47
In reply to Re: sometimes too much dopamine causes anhedonia, posted by mike lynch on August 16, 2004, at 22:50:31
Maybe the answer lies in finding the right balance between dopamine and serotonin?
Posted by alesta on August 17, 2004, at 1:40:11
In reply to sometimes too much dopamine causes anhedonia, posted by linkadge on August 16, 2004, at 18:11:41
hey linkadge,
i don't know if you were referring to my post or not (where i ask about a supplement/med for dopamine), but i never said dopamine is solely responsible for everyone's anhedonia, etc. i'm focusing on dopamine for myself because ssris are known to deplete dopamine, and i am on an ssri, now experiencing severe numbness/anhedonia since i went on the prozac. common sense indicates that *my* problem right now is a dopamine deficiency.i never implied that dopamine is the cause of these symptoms for everyone. i was trying to fix *my* individual problem.
just thought i'd clear that up, just in case. if you weren't referring to me, then never mind.:)
amy
Posted by SLS on August 17, 2004, at 7:15:51
In reply to Re: sometimes too much dopamine causes anhedonia, posted by mike lynch on August 16, 2004, at 22:50:31
> so basically major rumination is what it comes down to..
Rumination might be better explained by the pro-noradrenergic effects of these drugs. It is perhaps an imbalance between NE and 5-HT that facilitates this.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on August 17, 2004, at 8:06:03
In reply to Re: sometimes too much dopamine causes anhedonia, posted by SLS on August 17, 2004, at 7:15:51
My post was directed at nobody really. Just don't get trapped into the, I feel such and such so I need chemical such and such. For starters SSRi's don't depleat dopamine, they simply downregulate the system. This may be a good thing as some doctors have noted that there is little theraputic responce to SSRI's untill the dopaminergic/cholinergic system is downregulated. Believe it or not, my apathy and anhedonia responded to more SSRI at one point in my depression.
Another thing to remember is that the dopamine downregulation generally happens slowly over the course of months. If you are feeling apathy and anhedonia in just the first few weeks of starting an SSRI, then you likely havn't responded to it fully as an antidepressant.
I could be totally wrong, but I look back on my own experiences, and if I had just taken my medication as prescribed I probably would't be in the mess I am in now. I admit my tinkering around has done more dammage than the docotors have ever.
Linkadge
Posted by alesta on August 17, 2004, at 9:04:46
In reply to alesta, posted by linkadge on August 17, 2004, at 8:06:03
thank you, linkadge! well, now, that makes sense. that's *very* informative. these are the answers i've been looking for!
my apologies if i seemed rude.:)
Thanks!!!!
amy
Posted by Fromage47 on August 17, 2004, at 10:38:56
In reply to Re: alesta, posted by alesta on August 17, 2004, at 9:04:46
Which medications are mainly dopamine-related and effect it the most?? And i mean all medications, ADD, anti-depressants, anxiety, anything. thanks
fromage
Posted by alesta on August 17, 2004, at 10:51:10
In reply to Re: alesta, posted by Fromage47 on August 17, 2004, at 10:38:56
hi, fromage (are you french?),
you are asking the WRONG person. why don't you start a new thread on this topic?amy
> Which medications are mainly dopamine-related and effect it the most?? And i mean all medications, ADD, anti-depressants, anxiety, anything. thanks
>
> fromage
Posted by zeugma on August 17, 2004, at 14:46:24
In reply to Re: sometimes too much dopamine causes anhedonia, posted by SLS on August 17, 2004, at 7:15:51
dopamine appears to be more closely related to motivation than anhedonia. Animals that are given high doses of neuroleptics still experience stimuli as 'rewarding' (at least that's what my source says, and who am I to doubt him?) but don't go out of their way to get them. for what it's worth, when I was on a neuroleptic I did not experience anhedonia, but I could barely get out of bed. I experienced exactly the same feeling on doses of buspirone above 30 mg, which has mild D2 blocking properties. No anhedonia, just extraordinary fatigue. The only time I have ever experienced severe anhedonia was on Strattera, which stimulates the kappa opioid receptor. The opiate system is probably more involved with the direct experience of pleasure than dopamine is, although the opiate sytem seems to interact with dopamine and particularly NE, given the TCA's powerful effects on chronic pain.
Posted by KaraS on August 17, 2004, at 15:41:46
In reply to alesta, posted by linkadge on August 17, 2004, at 8:06:03
> My post was directed at nobody really. Just don't get trapped into the, I feel such and such so I need chemical such and such. For starters SSRi's don't depleat dopamine, they simply downregulate the system. This may be a good thing as some doctors have noted that there is little theraputic responce to SSRI's untill the dopaminergic/cholinergic system is downregulated. Believe it or not, my apathy and anhedonia responded to more SSRI at one point in my depression.
>
> Another thing to remember is that the dopamine downregulation generally happens slowly over the course of months. If you are feeling apathy and anhedonia in just the first few weeks of starting an SSRI, then you likely havn't responded to it fully as an antidepressant.
>
> I could be totally wrong, but I look back on my own experiences, and if I had just taken my medication as prescribed I probably would't be in the mess I am in now. I admit my tinkering around has done more dammage than the docotors have ever.
>
>
>
> Linkadge
>
>"Downregulation of the system" may be a good thing but only to a point. After several months the SSRIs downregulated me to the point where I had absolutely no drive or motivation. I didn't even feel alive. I never want to feel that way again.
Kara
Posted by KaraS on August 17, 2004, at 15:44:53
In reply to Re: alesta, posted by alesta on August 17, 2004, at 10:51:10
> hi, fromage (are you french?),
> you are asking the WRONG person. why don't you start a new thread on this topic?
>
> amy
>
>
>
> > Which medications are mainly dopamine-related and effect it the most?? And i mean all medications, ADD, anti-depressants, anxiety, anything. thanks
> >
> > fromage
>
>I believe there's already a thread on this on the board now.
Posted by linkadge on August 17, 2004, at 17:50:47
In reply to Re: dopamine and downregulation » linkadge, posted by KaraS on August 17, 2004, at 15:41:46
Many people think that adding a dopimanergic to an SSRi will increase the effectivness. If you are apathetic and think it may be related to serotonin induced dopaminergic downregulation this can respond to a reduction in SSRI dose.
Here's what I think. I think the most common form of depressive illness is one with overactive catecholamines and underactive serotonin. This is why neuroleptics are often useful as AD adjunctives because they help lower excess dopamine.
Don't get me wrong, I do believe that stimulants and dopaminergics have a place in depression, but sometimes it is just as effective to lower the SSRi dose.Linkadge
Posted by alesta on August 18, 2004, at 4:43:37
In reply to Re: sometimes too much dopamine causes anhedonia, posted by zeugma on August 17, 2004, at 14:46:24
thanks for the info, zeugma!
i have the same problem--a hard time getting out of bed and a lack of motivation. as well as anhedonia concerning some solitary activities; for example, i hate watching tv now.
amy :)
Posted by zeugma on August 18, 2004, at 9:29:21
In reply to Re: sometimes too much dopamine causes anhe-ZEUGMA, posted by alesta on August 18, 2004, at 4:43:37
> thanks for the info, zeugma!
>
> i have the same problem--a hard time getting out of bed and a lack of motivation. as well as anhedonia concerning some solitary activities; for example, i hate watching tv now.
>
> amy :)you're welcome, amy
i knew my anhedonia was lifting when I wanted to listen to music again.
-z
Posted by Philidor on August 18, 2004, at 10:27:14
In reply to Re: sometimes too much dopamine causes anhe-ZEUGMA, posted by zeugma on August 18, 2004, at 9:29:21
Well now, if I may jump in, it depends on what ails you, doesn't it? For people with ADHD , for example,dopaminergic drugs often have a calming effect. It's comparable to taking a hormone like thyroxine. If you have myxedema, like my mother, taking synthroid will make you feel much better. But if I were to take her synthroid, having a normal thyroid gland, I might very well feel awful. In fact, I've heard of med students trying the stuff to experience just what it feels like to have a HEART ATTACK (without having one, of course)!
For a very brief and fascinating take on the dopamine controversy, may I suggest this (and scroll down to Q.#6):http://www.adders.org/info28.htm
Phil
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