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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by greenwillow on August 1, 2004, at 23:19:51
Still need help with the Ambien alt. Sonata sleep problem. My sleep doc has me taking 10 mg. Ambien one night, the next night 10 - 20 mg. Sonata. I do not sleep on the Sonata night, I think it is Ambien rebound. So he has added 5 mg. Ambien on the Sonata night. On the Sonata+Ambien nights, my experience has been that I get up about 15 times each night in my sleep and basically rip the house apart. In the morning I find all kinds of surprises that I did in my sleep such as breaking my CD player, writing checks for large amounts, eating, etc. However, I have not taken them together at bedtime. I have always taken the Sonata first, waited to see if I would sleep (I won't for anything), then gotten up and taken the Ambien. Could this order of taking medicine have anything to do with it? Have any of you had any luck with alternating Ambien with anything, or do you rebound on alternate nights? Thanks for any ideas.
Posted by jlbl2l on August 2, 2004, at 1:27:48
In reply to Sonata+Ambien problems, need chemistry types input, posted by greenwillow on August 1, 2004, at 23:19:51
is it possible you could have been halluncinating on the combination of both? this is very common with the non-benzo sleep medicines, especially combining the two..
Posted by King Vultan on August 2, 2004, at 8:01:57
In reply to Sonata+Ambien problems, need chemistry types input, posted by greenwillow on August 1, 2004, at 23:19:51
I alternate Halcion and Benadryl myself; Halcion has a pretty similar half life to that of Ambien but is a true benzodiazepine and is possibly a little more powerful. Combining Sonata and Ambien does not sound wise to me, and I also see no point in alternating them, either. If it were me, I would keep whichever one is more effective (which seems to be the Ambien) and try alternating it with a non-benzo type sleep aid. Two OTC ones that are available are Benadryl (diphenhydramine) as I use or Unisom (doxylamine). You might also consider hydroxyzine (Vistaril), which is a prescription drug. Benadryl and Unisom are antihistamines, and I think Vistaril is also.
Todd
Posted by Sad Panda on August 2, 2004, at 9:57:18
In reply to Sonata+Ambien problems, need chemistry types input, posted by greenwillow on August 1, 2004, at 23:19:51
I would ask your doctor for a sedating AD that you could take at a low doseage. Remeron, Sinequan or Surmontil are very good at improving sleep quality.
Cheers,
Panda.
Posted by don_bristol on August 2, 2004, at 14:48:03
In reply to Sonata+Ambien problems, need chemistry types input, posted by greenwillow on August 1, 2004, at 23:19:51
> Still need help with the Ambien alt. Sonata sleep problem. My sleep doc has me taking 10 mg. Ambien one night, the next night 10 - 20 mg. Sonata. I do not sleep on the Sonata night, I think it is Ambien rebound. So he has added 5 mg. Ambien on the Sonata night. On the Sonata+Ambien nights, my experience has been that I get up about 15 times each night in my sleep and basically rip the house apart. In the morning I find all kinds of surprises that I did in my sleep such as breaking my CD player, writing checks for large amounts, eating, etc. However, I have not taken them together at bedtime. I have always taken the Sonata first, waited to see if I would sleep (I won't for anything), then gotten up and taken the Ambien. Could this order of taking medicine have anything to do with it? Have any of you had any luck with alternating Ambien with anything, or do you rebound on alternate nights? Thanks for any ideas.
=======
Have a look at this very recent thread
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20040724/msgs/370403.htmlIt describes some views about perceptual side effects on the "Z-sleepers". (Ignore the harsh words in that thread!)
Posted by KaraS on August 2, 2004, at 16:58:20
In reply to Sonata+Ambien problems, need chemistry types input, posted by greenwillow on August 1, 2004, at 23:19:51
Forgive me for barging in here but have you ever considered some alternative means of sleep enhancement? I haven't read the rest of your posts so I don't know anything about what you're taking or what you've tried for sleep in the past. In that case I don't know what would be contraindicated for you but I just thought I'd mention some alternative treaments that have helped others get some sleep such as:
Benadryl (diphenhydramine)
Tryptophan or 5-htp
Valerian
GABA
Taurine
Melatonin (in small amount)
I've known of people who alternate several different things on different nights. It seems to work for them and prevent tolerance to any one substance.Hope you find something that works for you.
Posted by chemist on August 2, 2004, at 18:05:38
In reply to Sonata+Ambien problems, need chemistry types input, posted by greenwillow on August 1, 2004, at 23:19:51
hello there, chemist here....several of the posts below your initial one are valid: you can decide for yourself what to do, in consult with your doctor. i can report that sonate is used for putting you to sleep, while ambien is for keeping you asleep. it is not surprising that you are experiencing rebound on a lesser ambien dose every other night. in addition to the suggestions of King Vultan, Sad Panda, don_bristol, and KaraS, you might well investigate with your doctor using ambien 5 to 10 mg night with no sonata in the mix. you can even eyeball a 7.5 tab if you cut the 10 mg (or 5 mg, for that matter) correctly. in any event, please keep us informed...all the best, chemist
> Still need help with the Ambien alt. Sonata sleep problem. My sleep doc has me taking 10 mg. Ambien one night, the next night 10 - 20 mg. Sonata. I do not sleep on the Sonata night, I think it is Ambien rebound. So he has added 5 mg. Ambien on the Sonata night. On the Sonata+Ambien nights, my experience has been that I get up about 15 times each night in my sleep and basically rip the house apart. In the morning I find all kinds of surprises that I did in my sleep such as breaking my CD player, writing checks for large amounts, eating, etc. However, I have not taken them together at bedtime. I have always taken the Sonata first, waited to see if I would sleep (I won't for anything), then gotten up and taken the Ambien. Could this order of taking medicine have anything to do with it? Have any of you had any luck with alternating Ambien with anything, or do you rebound on alternate nights? Thanks for any ideas.
Posted by greenwillow on August 2, 2004, at 23:42:04
In reply to Re: Sonata+Ambien problems, need chemistry types input, posted by KaraS on August 2, 2004, at 16:58:20
> Forgive me for barging in here but have you ever considered some alternative means of sleep enhancement? I haven't read the rest of your posts so I don't know anything about what you're taking or what you've tried for sleep in the past. In that case I don't know what would be contraindicated for you but I just thought I'd mention some alternative treaments that have helped others get some sleep such as:
>
> Benadryl (diphenhydramine)
> Tryptophan or 5-htp
> Valerian
> GABA
> Taurine
> Melatonin (in small amount)
>
> I've known of people who alternate several different things on different nights. It seems to work for them and prevent tolerance to any one substance.
> Hope you find something that works for you.
>
Of these meds, Benadryl 50 mg. does absolutely nothing for me, Valarian hypes me way up!, GABA makes my face feel stiff even at 100 mg. Have not tried 5-htp or Taurine. I used to take melatonin, but developed an auto-immune illness (tests presently being done to id) while on the melatonin, and the sleep doctor thinks that taking melatonin may actually have precipitated it. Also, my cortisol levels were recently high, and if I understand right from the web, that just shuts off your ability to sleep and puts down the gland that normally secretes melatonin. (Anyone?) It is like I am wired to stay awake, and feeling more unwell every day. Among my present dxs are Sjogren's syndrome and atrial fib., so alot of meds are containdicated because of side effects. Extreme sensitivity to benzos. Trazadone, Doxipin, and Remeron are among the drugs with too many side effects and most likely paradoxical outcome. Flexeril used to work but is no longer effective, and is too drying. Hope someone has a suggestion. Regarding the hallucinating idea about the z-meds, no, I am actually up doing things in my sleep such as writing checks, etc. which we find in the morning. Last night it happened on straight Ambien with no Sonata. Help! I need sleep so badly. Greenwillow
Posted by greenwillow on August 2, 2004, at 23:46:53
In reply to Re: Sonata+Ambien problems, need chemistry types input » greenwillow, posted by chemist on August 2, 2004, at 18:05:38
If I went off ambien and Sonata altogether, what should I expect in terms of withdraw and rebound, and based on the post I just made, would anyone have any ideas on what to do next? I mean, is it just try other meds? Would there be any time frame to wait, while I am getting more and more ill?
Posted by jlbl2l on August 3, 2004, at 0:23:38
In reply to If I went off Ambien - ?, posted by greenwillow on August 2, 2004, at 23:46:53
you would get rebound insomnia when you went off. i would rec. the medicine doxepin for sleep in your case.
Posted by KaraS on August 3, 2004, at 0:58:50
In reply to Re: Sonata+Ambien problems, need chemistry types input, posted by greenwillow on August 2, 2004, at 23:42:04
> > Forgive me for barging in here but have you ever considered some alternative means of sleep enhancement? I haven't read the rest of your posts so I don't know anything about what you're taking or what you've tried for sleep in the past. In that case I don't know what would be contraindicated for you but I just thought I'd mention some alternative treaments that have helped others get some sleep such as:
> >
> > Benadryl (diphenhydramine)
> > Tryptophan or 5-htp
> > Valerian
> > GABA
> > Taurine
> > Melatonin (in small amount)
> >
> > I've known of people who alternate several different things on different nights. It seems to work for them and prevent tolerance to any one substance.
> > Hope you find something that works for you.
> >
>
> Of these meds, Benadryl 50 mg. does absolutely nothing for me, Valarian hypes me way up!, GABA makes my face feel stiff even at 100 mg. Have not tried 5-htp or Taurine. I used to take melatonin, but developed an auto-immune illness (tests presently being done to id) while on the melatonin, and the sleep doctor thinks that taking melatonin may actually have precipitated it. Also, my cortisol levels were recently high, and if I understand right from the web, that just shuts off your ability to sleep and puts down the gland that normally secretes melatonin. (Anyone?) It is like I am wired to stay awake, and feeling more unwell every day. Among my present dxs are Sjogren's syndrome and atrial fib., so alot of meds are containdicated because of side effects. Extreme sensitivity to benzos. Trazadone, Doxipin, and Remeron are among the drugs with too many side effects and most likely paradoxical outcome. Flexeril used to work but is no longer effective, and is too drying. Hope someone has a suggestion. Regarding the hallucinating idea about the z-meds, no, I am actually up doing things in my sleep such as writing checks, etc. which we find in the morning. Last night it happened on straight Ambien with no Sonata. Help! I need sleep so badly. Greenwillow
>
>
>Wow. No one can say you haven't been trying...
I don't know all of the meds you are taking now. Tryptophan and 5-htp are obviously serotonergic so don't know if they'd be contraindicated for you. (Larry Hoover has a site for ordering high grade tryptophan at a good cost if you're interested.)Maprotiline used to work for me for sleep. It's related to the tricyclics but has less of the side effects. It's only mildly sedating so it's not as effective at getting you to sleep but there's less of a hung over feeling in the morning. It worked for me most of the time but some stressed-out evenings I'd take a shot of vodka with it to get me to sleep. Then the maprotiline would keep me asleep. (Not a great idea but one can get quite desperate.)
I have no experience with taurine though from what others have said it seems to be very subtle so I'm not sure it would work for you. Larry (mentioned above) is trying it for anxiety and sleep purposes but he's on vacation now. I think BarbaraCat is trying it now as well so she may be able to add more info on it also if you're interested.
If you have a sleepwalking problem, then there's a good chance that the tryptophan, 5-htp, maprotiline and taurine might help you get to sleep but you would still have the same problem (as you're probably well aware).
Posted by chemist on August 3, 2004, at 5:31:32
In reply to Re: Sonata+Ambien problems, need chemistry types input, posted by greenwillow on August 2, 2004, at 23:42:04
hello there, chemist here...don't worry about the hallucinations. delusions of grandeur have been observed in at least one individual on one of these meds. i would suggest consulting your doctor and pursuing one of the alternatives mentioned herein....all the best, chemist
Posted by chemist on August 3, 2004, at 5:49:04
In reply to Re: If I went off Ambien - ?, posted by jlbl2l on August 3, 2004, at 0:23:38
> you would get rebound insomnia when you went off. i would rec. the medicine doxepin for sleep in your case.
hello there, chemist here.....i agree. the hallucinations would stop, too, by the way. all the best, chemist
Posted by chemist on August 3, 2004, at 5:51:16
In reply to If I went off Ambien - ?, posted by greenwillow on August 2, 2004, at 23:46:53
> If I went off ambien and Sonata altogether, what should I expect in terms of withdraw and rebound, and based on the post I just made, would anyone have any ideas on what to do next? I mean, is it just try other meds? Would there be any time frame to wait, while I am getting more and more ill?
hello there, chemist here...yes, rebound insomnia but you could start another sleep med instantly....all the best, chemist
Posted by Sad Panda on August 3, 2004, at 7:26:19
In reply to Re: Sonata+Ambien problems, need chemistry types input » greenwillow, posted by chemist on August 3, 2004, at 5:31:32
> hello there, chemist here...don't worry about the hallucinations. delusions of grandeur have been observed in at least one individual on one of these meds. i would suggest consulting your doctor and pursuing one of the alternatives mentioned herein....all the best, chemist
>
>I've heard that driving under the influence of delusions of grandeur is considered dangerous in 49 states! :)
Cheers,
Panda.
Posted by chemist on August 3, 2004, at 8:04:08
In reply to Caution! » chemist, posted by Sad Panda on August 3, 2004, at 7:26:19
> > hello there, chemist here...don't worry about the hallucinations. delusions of grandeur have been observed in at least one individual on one of these meds. i would suggest consulting your doctor and pursuing one of the alternatives mentioned herein....all the best, chemist
> >
> >
>
> I've heard that driving under the influence of delusions of grandeur is considered dangerous in 49 states! :)
>
> Cheers,
> Panda.
>
>
>
yes, indeed...also, there is recent evidence that the danger increases if the delusions of grandeur are mixed with ignorance, although i cannot provide a reference supporting this claim...remember to buckle-up, and all the best, chemist
Posted by KaraS on August 3, 2004, at 13:03:43
In reply to Caution! » chemist, posted by Sad Panda on August 3, 2004, at 7:26:19
> > hello there, chemist here...don't worry about the hallucinations. delusions of grandeur have been observed in at least one individual on one of these meds. i would suggest consulting your doctor and pursuing one of the alternatives mentioned herein....all the best, chemist
> >
> >
>
> I've heard that driving under the influence of delusions of grandeur is considered dangerous in 49 states! :)
>
> Cheers,
> Panda.
>
>
>But what about in Australia? (I hear it's allowed there.)
This is the end of the thread.
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