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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 3 to 27 of 27. Go back in thread:
Posted by theo on July 10, 2004, at 12:46:21
In reply to Re: MDMA (Ecstacy) for PTSD, posted by linkadge on July 10, 2004, at 10:19:01
You know, I went to the University of Oklahoma in 1982-85, smack dab in the middle of legal Ecstacy and had many friends at SMU, Dallas, TX where Ecstacy took off. Since it has become illegal, I have been scared to take it because of not knowing what was in it.
I must say, when Ecstacy was not illegal, I knew chemistry majors at SMU who made pharmacy grade pills and gave it away because it wasn't even about the money at that time. I took it, felt great and came down smoothly after about 5-6 hours, it was fantastic! No hangover or remorse at all. My point is that most studies that talk about deaths or brain damage probably are based off of illegal street Ecstacy.
When it wasn't illegal and it was made pure, I took it frequently for several years and never had a problem taking it and here it is 20 years later and I've not had any negative effects. If anything, I had negative effects after because it was the first time in my life I felt normal when it was available, then all the sudden it was made illegal. I didn't drink much when Ecstacy was legal and when it was made illegal turned to heavy drinking.
My point is that I don't think pure MDMA is any more harmful than all of these antidepressants were pumping into our bodies without knowing long term effects when the reality is they don't work that great anyway.
I'm 40, don't drink or take any illegal drugs because drugs like cocaine etc. do make me crash and feel way down the day after, but I would take Ecstacy in a second if I could get it in pure form legally, without giving it a second thought.
Posted by Elle2021 on July 10, 2004, at 12:55:07
In reply to Re: MDMA (Ecstacy) for PTSD, posted by linkadge on July 10, 2004, at 10:19:01
> I think is a pretty bad decsision. First of, they couldn't use it long term or the brain would get pretty fried.
I definitely agree that long-term use is a bad idea, but the research the psychiatrists are doing is for short-term only.
> Secondly short term use is unlikely to make any long term dent to te physical and structural changes in the brain.In this case, the psychiatrists are using it as a way to unlock the emotions that are/were associated with the trauma, not to make any structural/physical changes in the brain.
>But the day after you'll be twice as lost when you experience a noteworthy E crash.What does that feel like? Some people have told me it makes one very thirsty. Is there any truth to that?
Elle
Posted by zenhussy on July 10, 2004, at 15:37:17
In reply to Re: MDMA (Ecstacy) for PTSD » linkadge, posted by Elle2021 on July 10, 2004, at 12:55:07
Elle,
Have you read up on the current US studies on MDMA for PTSD?? If not here is link to main 'clearinghouse' of info about that study in progress. http://www.maps.org/mdma/ halfway down the page under MDMA Research News is a link(May 13,2004) to the pdf article that chemist referred to earlier so no need to e-mail. You can download the pdf yourself. Cool eh? ; )
I personally tried to get into this study but my doc wasn't as supportive. Not that my pdoc was anti MDMA but rather concerned that I wasn't quite ready for that type of therapy. Sure my pdoc is entitled to have an opinion yet since I'm the one enduring the hell of PTSD it was hard for me to accept that answer.
I know that a properly led session would help tremendously. Over twelve years ago when recreational drugs were an option for me I used ecstacy a handful of times. For all the recreational drugs and rx drugs I've taken over the years ecstacy was the one that gave the internal censor a break. Feeling safe and having the inner critic/voices whatever sent on a little break for a few hours was wonderful.
I wasn't filled with the usual horrible thoughts I had come to accept as normal. So I see much potential for MDMA for PTSD. I've already been through so many modalities of therapy for this and have hit that brick wall too many times. If something chemical were available for me to use under my the care of my pdoc and therp. to help me unlock the part of my life where my soul was ripped from me I would jump at it.
--zh
Posted by linkadge on July 10, 2004, at 16:05:55
In reply to Re: MDMA (Ecstacy) for PTSD » Elle2021, posted by zenhussy on July 10, 2004, at 15:37:17
most rat studies done with MDMA show that even pure stuff is neurotoxic.
It really depends on the doses you use. If you only take a little, you will not get any major crash, yet you will not expereince what the average raver does.PTSD is not really about unlocking hidden emotions. I could say a whole bunch of things when on ecstacy and regret them all later.
I think that in order to really recover from PTSD, you need an agent that can promote neurogenesis to restore the shrunken hippocampal volume often seen in PTSD, and something to lower the chronically raised cortisol.
I don't think that a single fantastical experience will make much dent. Its kind of like opiates. You *could* use them to improve just about every mentall ilness, but one shot of heroin would not make you any better in the long run.
Or consider using cocaine to treat parkinsons disease. Sure it would help the disease very quickly, but in the long run it would just cause more dammage to the dopimanergic system and make symptoms worse.
Linkadge
Posted by zenhussy on July 10, 2004, at 16:20:28
In reply to Re: MDMA (Ecstacy) for PTSD, posted by linkadge on July 10, 2004, at 16:05:55
Linkadge,
Thank you for your opinions. Hearing from someone like yourself who DOES NOT live with complex PTSD is helpful to balance out the conversation. I appreciate the time you took to write this and appreciate *your view* on drugs.
It is great that this board allows so many different opinions.
Yours has been duly noted.
--zh
Posted by linkadge on July 10, 2004, at 18:32:24
In reply to Re: MDMA (Ecstacy) for PTSD » linkadge, posted by zenhussy on July 10, 2004, at 16:20:28
I'm just afraid that a lot of people are in for a fancy event that leads to a major let down. Currently there are no drugs approved for any mental illness that are a "one shot" drug. This is because PTSD it not so much a chemical problem, as it is a structural problem as a result of the event.
If it works, I am all for it. This just sounds a little too remeniciant of the trials in the 70's where LSD was used in therapy sessions. It ended up stirring up more latent mental illnesses than it helped cure.
Best of Luck whatever you choose.
Linkadge
Posted by guttersnipe on July 11, 2004, at 1:52:04
In reply to Re: MDMA (Ecstacy) for PTSD, posted by linkadge on July 10, 2004, at 18:32:24
Actually, the key research suggesting that a single dose of MDMA can cause irreversible brain damage has now been thoroughly discredited, because the guy in charge of the study, Dr. Ricuarte, actually gave the monkeys in the study hefty doses of methamphetamine, not realistic doses of MDMA. Since that news came to light, earlier MDMA studies by Ricuarte have also come under attack for methodological and analystic flaws.
There is a pretty good collection of material about MDMA and neurotoxicity at http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_neurotoxicity.shtml
Also worth reading is a review of an April 2004 ABC news story about Ecstacy: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_media1.shtml
One thing that folks who are not subjects in the government-approved study should keep in mind is that under Prohibition, very little of what is sold as "Ecstacy" on the black market is pure, unadulterated MDMA. Most of it, if it includes any MDMA at all, also includes a combination of MDA, MDE, caffeine, pseudoephedrine, and/or sometimes methamphetamine. Anyone thinking about taking black market Ecstacy would be wise to first take a look at http://www.ecstasydata.org/ which shows results of tests of street Ecstacy to find out what was in them. Of course, both MDA and MDE have effects similar to MDMA (especially MDE), so the presence of those substances is not necessarily something to panic about. The Ecstacy pills containing methamphetamine (which are many of them) are rather troubling to me, though -- not very many methamphetamine users have very healthy relationships with that drug.
Posted by NikkiT2 on July 11, 2004, at 5:36:24
In reply to Re: MDMA (Ecstacy) for PTSD » Elle2021, posted by zenhussy on July 10, 2004, at 15:37:17
>"Feeling safe and having the inner critic/voices whatever sent on a little break for a few hours was wonderful. "
That was exactly why I used to do so much Ecstacy.. being social phobic a night club (or similar) were my idea of total nightmare.. But some ecstacy (which in those days was pretty pure and good) would have me happy, interetsing, un afraid.. and, while if I get drunk I spend days beating myself up over my behaviour.. with mdma involved it was different.
Unfortunately those days have gone, and what you can buy these days is so heavily cut with other rubbish you do experience these terrible come downs / crashes.. thats the problem. I do believe that pure mdma is a wonderful thing and can / does help alot of people.. but Street ecstacy is just not a good idea what so ever.
BUT.. having been a regular user, it does deplete seratonin, and after a relatively short while of use you get the mid week blues.. 3 - 4 days after doing it, I would have two days of very deep depression.. and thats when I stopped using it every weekend.. when the depression was getting harder and harder to get over. And the same for most of my mates too.
Nikki
Posted by linkadge on July 11, 2004, at 8:27:41
In reply to Re: MDMA (Ecstacy) for PTSD » zenhussy, posted by NikkiT2 on July 11, 2004, at 5:36:24
I would say that any research suggesting that MDMA is "safe" would be extremely controversial. There are literally hundreds of studies that one would have to refute, not just a single study.
You can pay thousands for therapy sessions aimed at unlocking hidden emotions, or using ecstacy to provide "a one time break" from PTSD symptoms.Personally I would think that daily low dose mifesteprone (RU-486) would prove to be remarkably more effective in providing constant relief from the adrenal dysfunction seen in PTSD.
Linkadge
Posted by zenhussy on July 11, 2004, at 11:25:33
In reply to Re: MDMA (Ecstacy) for PTSD, posted by linkadge on July 10, 2004, at 18:32:24
Posted by linkadge on July 11, 2004, at 11:51:20
In reply to Please do not post to me (nm) » linkadge, posted by zenhussy on July 11, 2004, at 11:25:33
Posted by guttersnipe on July 11, 2004, at 18:47:53
In reply to Re: MDMA (Ecstacy) for PTSD, posted by linkadge on July 11, 2004, at 8:27:41
> I would say that any research suggesting that MDMA is "safe" would be extremely controversial. There are literally hundreds of studies that one would have to refute, not just a single study.
You're right, linkadge; I didn't mean to imply that MDMA is necessarily safe -- I just don't think that there is conclusive evidence that infrequent use of it is neurotoxic at the dosages people ordinarily take.
I certainly do not want to give anyone a false sense of security about the stuff -- but I don't think the verdict is in yet about the actual risk of neurotoxicity to the infrequent user of typical dosages, that's all.
Posted by Elle2021 on July 12, 2004, at 3:46:31
In reply to Re: MDMA (Ecstacy) for PTSD, posted by guttersnipe on July 11, 2004, at 18:47:53
I can see this is a very controversial topic. I appreciate everyone's opinions.
Zen, thanks for the files. I guess you remember my phobia about email. :)
Chemist: I have a phobia about emails... :) Thanks for the info too by the way.
My personal opinion, is that if this drug can be used medically to really, honestly help someone, then so be it. I have PTSD, and I do have trouble sharing feelings, sometimes even identifying my own feelings.
Elle
Posted by chemist on July 12, 2004, at 4:49:37
In reply to Re: Everyone, posted by Elle2021 on July 12, 2004, at 3:46:31
> I can see this is a very controversial topic. I appreciate everyone's opinions.
>
> Zen, thanks for the files. I guess you remember my phobia about email. :)
>
> Chemist: I have a phobia about emails... :) Thanks for the info too by the way.elle, it's my fault: i receive Nature every week, and read the editorial, news brief, and article, which mentioned the maps website: i never got around to pointing my browser towards it, and thus was unaware that the PDFs could be downloaded from the site. all the best, chemist
>
> My personal opinion, is that if this drug can be used medically to really, honestly help someone, then so be it. I have PTSD, and I do have trouble sharing feelings, sometimes even identifying my own feelings.
>
> Elle
Posted by Elle2021 on July 13, 2004, at 5:50:13
In reply to Re: Everyone » Elle2021, posted by chemist on July 12, 2004, at 4:49:37
> elle, it's my fault: i receive Nature every week, and read the editorial, news brief, and article, which mentioned the maps website: i never got around to pointing my browser towards it, and thus was unaware that the PDFs could be downloaded from the site. all the best, chemist
Oh, it's not your fault! I thank you very much for the information you provided. How come I never hear much from you? What board do you usually post on?
Elle
Posted by Elle2021 on July 13, 2004, at 5:57:45
In reply to Re: MDMA (Ecstacy) for PTSD, posted by linkadge on July 11, 2004, at 8:27:41
> You can pay thousands for therapy sessions aimed at unlocking hidden emotions, or using ecstacy to provide "a one time break" from PTSD symptoms.
In the studies I read, MDMA wasn't being given for a "one time break" from PTSD symptoms. It was used to unlock the deeper, more complex emotions that Ecstacy users report having. Theoretically, it allows the PTSD sufferer to access memories and feeling which they have otherwise blocked and dissociated from. I really appreciate your knowledge and opinion on this subject.
Elle
Posted by chemist on July 13, 2004, at 8:26:04
In reply to Re: Everyone » chemist, posted by Elle2021 on July 13, 2004, at 5:50:13
> > elle, it's my fault: i receive Nature every week, and read the editorial, news brief, and article, which mentioned the maps website: i never got around to pointing my browser towards it, and thus was unaware that the PDFs could be downloaded from the site. all the best, chemist
>
> Oh, it's not your fault! I thank you very much for the information you provided. How come I never hear much from you? What board do you usually post on?
> Elle
sorry about that (the lack of communication)....i almost invariably bless the audience with my witty and insightful opinions on PB exclusively....but let's do keep in touch, and i do hope the info zen gave to you is of use...all the best, chemist
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 13, 2004, at 22:38:34
In reply to MDMA (Ecstacy) for PTSD « Elle2021, posted by Dr. Bob on July 10, 2004, at 2:07:42
Posted by Beta on July 13, 2004, at 14:18:59
I want to add that I am so thankful that they are finally doing trials on MDMA and trauma survivors. I personally believe MDMA kept me alive.
I have recently been diagnosed with chronic PTSD. Several years before my diagnosis, I experimented with ecstacy for about 6 years. I wish it was available to me now, to be honest.
I am new to Therapy, and I can see that I will be at it for quite some time. The MDMA has an amazing way of helping you open up and share experiences with others that you may not normally be able to.
Posted by linkadge on July 14, 2004, at 8:37:43
In reply to Re: MDMA (Ecstacy) for PTSD « Beta, posted by Dr. Bob on July 13, 2004, at 22:38:34
I have no doubt in my mind that MDMA can make for wonderful therapy sessions. Laughing, and honesty, brilliance, and loose tangential emotional revelations.
Sure it's a wonderful experience, but like most illegal substances, when it wears off, you're not in any better position than when you started.
Infact, from what I hear of 99% percent of E users is that, the world (after the drugs wears off) is equally and oppositly as ugly, repulsive and dirty. After the drug wears off most people are bitter, irritable, selfish and mildly panicky.
Why antidepressants work is that they tackle the underlying hormonal and structural abnormalities in the brain, promoting neurogenesis and new curcuitry that can faclilitate a more positive outlook. They can take months to work because they need time to remodle the brain.
Ecstacy does not induce any positive structural changes in the brain. Infact it may induce negative structural changes in the brain. Taken together, ecstacy might be a nice little break from PTSD symptoms but is not going to change the course of the disease.
Linkadge
Posted by Elle2021 on July 14, 2004, at 17:20:48
In reply to Re: MDMA (Ecstacy) for PTSD, posted by linkadge on July 14, 2004, at 8:37:43
> Ecstacy does not induce any positive structural changes in the brain.
The researchers in the studies I read weren't trying to induce structural changes.
>Taken together, ecstacy might be a nice little break from PTSD symptoms but is not going to change the course of the disease.
From what I read it's just supposed to help people with PTSD to be able to open up and express what happened to them to the therapist. It's not a long term therapy. From what I understand, just 2-3 times until the events are out of the closet. Then the sufferer has to deal with the emotions on their own.
Elle
Posted by linkadge on July 14, 2004, at 19:09:20
In reply to Re: MDMA (Ecstacy) for PTSD » linkadge, posted by Elle2021 on July 14, 2004, at 17:20:48
This may or may not be a good idea. Somebody may say something that they would not otherwise say. Some people, myself included, would be embarrased to return to a therapist that knew my darkest secrets. Unless that openness can be sustained, an indevidual might feel embarrased to return. At least, if you're not under the influence of E, you can reveal things at a more comfortable pace.
I just go by a small rule in psychiatry. If changes happen too soon, they wont last, or there was no problem to start with.Linkadge
Posted by zeugma on July 14, 2004, at 19:24:35
In reply to Re: MDMA (Ecstacy) for PTSD, posted by linkadge on July 14, 2004, at 19:09:20
> This may or may not be a good idea. Somebody may say something that they would not otherwise say. Some people, myself included, would be embarrased to return to a therapist that knew my darkest secrets. Unless that openness can be sustained, an indevidual might feel embarrased to return. At least, if you're not under the influence of E, you can reveal things at a more comfortable pace.
>
>
> I just go by a small rule in psychiatry. If changes happen too soon, they wont last, or there was no problem to start with.
>
> Linkadge
>
if something like E is required to fuel the patient/therapist relationship to the point where it can make psychotherapy a true healing experience for traumatized people, then I think a hundred years' worth of therapists should pack up and admit they have been practicing quackery all this time. There is nothing in any kind of psychotherapeutic training on how to deal with E-induced revelations in the therapeutic setting.
Posted by zeugma on July 14, 2004, at 20:06:33
In reply to Re: MDMA (Ecstacy) for PTSD, posted by zeugma on July 14, 2004, at 19:24:35
The therapeutic relationship is a carefully constructed one based on a whole set of conventions that are set up to provide 'limits' for both patient and therapist. That's why therapy is so difficult, and often so useless, but I see those limits as absolutely necessary or trauma will be inevitably inflicted on the patient. I think that for a therapist to suggest that a patient use MDMA in order to alter the nature of the therapeutic course would be a major ethical breach. Psychotherapy is problematic enough already without creating a situation in which it would be only too easy for a therapist to exploit their patients.
Posted by linkadge on July 14, 2004, at 20:12:31
In reply to Re: MDMA (Ecstacy) for PTSD, posted by zeugma on July 14, 2004, at 19:24:35
The point of therapy is about a gradual and sustained growth and learning, not slip sliding all over the place.
I know people who have got married in Vagas while under the influence of E, and then got divorced in discust when the pill wears off.
What I am trying to say is that sure ecstacy can make Bush and Sadam kiss and make up. But that doesn't mean that the next day things would remain the same.
What goes up, must come down. In that down time there are just as many self destructive thoughts formed as there were positive.
I've heard research to suggest that the brain can take up to 14 days to resynthsize the brain serotonin content that was so callously sqandered to produce this flashbulb experience.
There are denumerable case reports of suicidally depressed people who have taken ecstacy to try and snap out of their melancholy. Regardless of the positive experience they had, the crash was so precipitous that suicide was (for them) the only option.It doesn't matter what insight, or proposed understanding you have of your condition. If your brain is still significantly unballenced, you will feel bad. Remember that everything psychological is also psysical. And the idea that a single dose of E will magically and permanatly fix your brain chemsitry is absurd, and perhaps quite the opposite.
Linkadge
Linkadge
Posted by Sebastian on July 15, 2004, at 10:58:24
In reply to Please do not post to me (nm) » linkadge, posted by zenhussy on July 11, 2004, at 11:25:33
I have PTSD now 9 years. Funny I tried a major dose of E, and afterwards I didn't have anymore psychotic episodes. I use to have one every year around the aniversary of the event. Think I took the E around or just befor that time of year. The E made me feel so horible, like I was dieing, that I never took anymore. I dabled in smallar doses the 6 months befor the grand finaly.
This is the end of the thread.
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