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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by SandyWeb on July 6, 2004, at 9:37:26
Has anyone used Thorazine for chronic insomnia? My p-doc said that I could give it a try, with a max. dose of 20mg per night.
I have tried the following without success: Zopiclone, Nozinan, Trazadone, Remeron, Seroquel, and Ativan (only works at a high dose, and docs won't prescribe it). I have tried most ADs as well.
I do not have difficulties FALLING asleep, but rather STAYING asleep.
I've also tried all the over-the-counter sleep aids and allergy meds.
Has Thorazine worked for anyone??
Thanks!
Sandy
Posted by King Vultan on July 6, 2004, at 10:58:41
In reply to Thorazine for Insomnia, posted by SandyWeb on July 6, 2004, at 9:37:26
> Has anyone used Thorazine for chronic insomnia? My p-doc said that I could give it a try, with a max. dose of 20mg per night.
>
> I have tried the following without success: Zopiclone, Nozinan, Trazadone, Remeron, Seroquel, and Ativan (only works at a high dose, and docs won't prescribe it). I have tried most ADs as well.
>
> I do not have difficulties FALLING asleep, but rather STAYING asleep.
>
> I've also tried all the over-the-counter sleep aids and allergy meds.
>
> Has Thorazine worked for anyone??
>
> Thanks!
>
> Sandy
>
What about Ambien, Halcion, or Restoril? Restoril, in particular, might be good for someone who has trouble staying asleep. However, it really should not be used every night.Todd
Posted by bluebird on July 6, 2004, at 11:38:42
In reply to Re: Thorazine for Insomnia » SandyWeb, posted by King Vultan on July 6, 2004, at 10:58:41
> > Has anyone used Thorazine for chronic insomnia? My p-doc said that I could give it a try, with a max. dose of 20mg per night.
> >
> > I have tried the following without success: Zopiclone, Nozinan, Trazadone, Remeron, Seroquel, and Ativan (only works at a high dose, and docs won't prescribe it). I have tried most ADs as well.
> >
> > I do not have difficulties FALLING asleep, but rather STAYING asleep.
> >
> > I've also tried all the over-the-counter sleep aids and allergy meds.
> >
> > Has Thorazine worked for anyone??
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Sandy
> >
>
>
> What about Ambien, Halcion, or Restoril? Restoril, in particular, might be good for someone who has trouble staying asleep. However, it really should not be used every night.
>
> ToddI presently take paxil and that is my problem I can't stay asleep. I am currently going off of paxil and plan to switch to Nardil or Parnate. What can be taken with Nardil or Parnate for sleep? I am learning so please bear with all of my questions. Meds seem so confusing.
Thanks, bluebird
Posted by King Vultan on July 6, 2004, at 12:18:39
In reply to Re: Thorazine for Insomnia, posted by bluebird on July 6, 2004, at 11:38:42
>
> I presently take paxil and that is my problem I can't stay asleep. I am currently going off of paxil and plan to switch to Nardil or Parnate. What can be taken with Nardil or Parnate for sleep? I am learning so please bear with all of my questions. Meds seem so confusing.
>
> Thanks, bluebird
Among others, you can take Benadryl, trazodone, and Ambien, as well as the benzos, which would include stuff like Halcion and Restoril. I believe you could also use many of the antipsychotics; although, I would not care to do so myself because of personal prejudice. You could probably also get away with using some of the tricyclics that are powerful antihistamines such as doxepin and Surmontil, and I believe that Remeron may also be okay.While on Nardil, I personally have tried Ambien, Benadryl, trazodone, and Halcion. Of those, Halcion has worked the best, but my pdoc has advised me to only use it three or four nights a week. So I am alternating each night between Halcion and Benadryl and also using a sleep/relaxation CD, which I find quite helpful.
Todd
Posted by bluebird on July 6, 2004, at 16:07:35
In reply to Re: Thorazine for Insomnia » bluebird, posted by King Vultan on July 6, 2004, at 12:18:39
>
> >
> > I presently take paxil and that is my problem I can't stay asleep. I am currently going off of paxil and plan to switch to Nardil or Parnate. What can be taken with Nardil or Parnate for sleep? I am learning so please bear with all of my questions. Meds seem so confusing.
> >
> > Thanks, bluebird
>
>
> Among others, you can take Benadryl, trazodone, and Ambien, as well as the benzos, which would include stuff like Halcion and Restoril. I believe you could also use many of the antipsychotics; although, I would not care to do so myself because of personal prejudice. You could probably also get away with using some of the tricyclics that are powerful antihistamines such as doxepin and Surmontil, and I believe that Remeron may also be okay.
>
> While on Nardil, I personally have tried Ambien, Benadryl, trazodone, and Halcion. Of those, Halcion has worked the best, but my pdoc has advised me to only use it three or four nights a week. So I am alternating each night between Halcion and Benadryl and also using a sleep/relaxation CD, which I find quite helpful.
>
> ToddThanks for all of the info. I sure appreciate it.
Bluebird
Posted by SandyWeb on July 7, 2004, at 12:15:42
In reply to Re: Thorazine for Insomnia » SandyWeb, posted by King Vultan on July 6, 2004, at 10:58:41
Posted by 1980Monroe on July 7, 2004, at 22:12:31
In reply to Re: Thorazine for Insomnia King Vultan, posted by bluebird on July 6, 2004, at 16:07:35
Goodness! That's pretty strong, this is the first case ive ever hearing Thorazine mentioned for insomnia. Get ready for some side effects, if im not mistaken. I dont know but it may cause depression since the blocking of dopamine terminals, but i dont know much so dont take this seriously.
Sandy i really do not recommend Thorazine, that would be the LAST option, and im talking after the barbiturates.
Before you ask your doctor about it, try Halcion like King Vultan said. IF that fails, ask your doc about Nembutal (pentobarbital) which is a potent barbiturate, it lasts for about 4 hours. Amytal (amobarbital) which is not as potent lasts for about 6 hours if you need something to keep you asleep longer, but its infamous for giving a morning hangover.But if your doctor approves thorazine, i guess just give it a try and i pray you will have low side effects.
Take Care...
Posted by SandyWeb on July 8, 2004, at 7:16:26
In reply to Re: Thorazine for Insomnia King Vultan, posted by 1980Monroe on July 7, 2004, at 22:12:31
Yikes, now you've got me wondering.
The p-doc said that 20mg was a pretty good dose, but I looked Thorazine up and the starting dose as an antipsychotic is 25mg. So I'm hoping that only 20mg wouldn't have any side effects.
The p-doc doesn't want to give me anything addictive. That's really too bad because I would be thrilled to sleep through the night! My quality of life would be greatly improved. Oh well. I guess the docs have to experience it themselves before they can understand that addictive meds won't always be addicting.
Thanks for your concern. I haven't decided whether to pick up the script or not. I'll let you know if I give it a try.
Sandy
Posted by Buckeye Fan on July 8, 2004, at 8:52:45
In reply to Re: Thorazine » 1980Monroe, posted by SandyWeb on July 8, 2004, at 7:16:26
Thorazine
"People's voices came through filtered, strange. They could not penetrate my Thorazine fog; and I could not escape my drug prison." - Janet Gotkin, testimony before the Senate Subcommittee on the Abuse and Misuse of Controlled Drugs in Institutions (1977)
"It's very hard to describe the effects of this drug and others like it. That's why we use strange words like "zombie". But in my case the experience became sheer torture." - Wade Hudson, testimony before the Senate Subcommittee on the Abuse and Misuse of Controlled Drugs in Institutions (1977)
"Frequent Effects: sedation, drowsiness, lethargy, difficult thinking, poor concentration, nightmares, emotional dullness, depression, despair . . ." - Dr. Calagari's Psychiatric Drugs (1987)
In 1954 the neuroleptic drug, Thorazine, began flooding the state mental hospitals. The neuroleptics are synonymous with tranquilizers and antipsychotics. The neuroleptics are the drug most commonly given to schizophrenics. The psychiatrist would like us to believe that drugs such as Thorazine "cure" the patient by repairing or altering "bad" brain chemistry (whatever that means. . .).
But the truth is the drug involves a strong dulling of the mind and emotional functions, and that this is what acts to inhibit or "push the symptoms into the back ground". According to Jerry Avon, M.D.:
"My concern is that people are having their minds blunted in a way that probably does diminish their capacity to appreciate life". (Boston Globe, 1988)To fully understand the nature and effects of drugs such as Thorazine, it is useful to go back and see what the early research psychiatrists themselves had to say about the drug. The two pioneers of Thorazine, Delay and Deniker, said about small doses of the drug in 1952:
"Sitting or lying, the patient is motionless in his bed, often pale and with eyelids lowered. He remains silent most of the time. If he is questioned, he answers slowly and deliberately in a monotonous and indifferent voice; he expresses himself in a few words and becomes silent".In 1954, Canada's Heinz Lehmann described the "emotional indifference" and specifically called it the "aim" of the treatment. Like Deniker and Delay, he found "the patients under treatment display a lack of spontaneous interest in the environment. . .". Contrary to today's psychiatric PR, the early pioneers plainly stated there was no positive cure or reduction of the patient's delusional symptoms or hallucinatory phenomena. With stronger dosages, there is a marked dulling and blunting of the patient's overall awareness, motor control and "thereness".
A 1950 textbook candidly reported the "lobotomylike" impact of Thorazine, and in 1958, Noyes and Kolb summarized in Modern Clinical Psychiatry:
"If the patient responds well to the drug, he develops and attitude of indifference both to his surroundings and to his symptoms".
The common factor is that the drug strongly reduces awareness and interest with the result the patient doesn't lose their symptoms, they lose interest in them.
Thorazine has been called a "chemical lobotomy" because of the similar effects it creates.Briefly, a lobotomy destroys partially or completely all functioning of the frontal lobes. The frontal lobes are unique to human beings and are the seat of the higher functions such as love, concern for others, empathy, self-insight, creativity, initiative, autonomy, rationality, abstract reasoning, judgment, future planning, foresight, will-power, determination and concentration. Without the frontal lobes it is impossible to be "human" in the fullest sense of the word; they are required for a civilized, effective, mature life. Without this "human" aspect a person is incapable of living a rewarding, happy and responsible life.
While the neuroleptics are toxic to most brain functions, disrupting nearly all of them, they have an especially well-documented impact on the dopamine neurotransmitter system. As any psychiatric textbook explains, dopamine neurotransmitters provide the major nerve pathways from the deeper brain to the frontal lobes and limbic system - the very same area attacked by surgical lobotomy. The disruption in the functioning of the frontal lobes results in the same effect - a greatly reduced person with dementia and reduction of awareness of self and the environment. They become "vegetables" - a body with very little mind or personality left.
While American psychiatrists continue to deny the obvious reality of chemical lobotomy, many European psychiatrists often acknowledge it openly, even in public and to the press. They can argue and play word games all they like - Thorazine is an extremely dangerous drug which does chemically what a lobotomy does surgically.
"The blunting of conscious motivation, and the inability to solve problems under the influence of chlorpromazine (Thorazine) resembles nothing so much as the effects of frontal lobotomy. . . Research has suggested that lobotomies and chemicals like chlorpromazine may cause their effects in the same way, by disrupting the activity of the neurochemical, dopamine. At any rate, a psychiatrist would be hard put to distinguish a lobotomized patient from one treated with chlorpromazine." - Peter Sterling, neuroanatomist, article Psychiatry's Drug Addiction, New Republic magazine (March 3, 1979)
Like surgical lobotomy, chemical lobotomy has no specific beneficial effect on any human problem or human being. It puts a chemical clamp on the higher brain of anyone. Therefore, the drugs can be used to subdue anyone.
Posted by SandyWeb on July 8, 2004, at 14:17:30
In reply to Re: Thorazine, posted by Buckeye Fan on July 8, 2004, at 8:52:45
Wow, that med sounds SCARY! Thanks for all the info.
But that can't possibly happen just from a low dose for sleep....can it??
Has ANYONE on Babble ever used it??
But I can't sleep, and nothing seems to help. Maybe I should just give it a little try? I don't want to be a zombie, though.
Ugh, what to do.
Sandy
Posted by 1980Monroe on July 8, 2004, at 19:07:56
In reply to Re: Thorazine » Buckeye Fan, posted by SandyWeb on July 8, 2004, at 14:17:30
Sandy,
If i was a doc i would never put you on thorazine, but thats my view. Thorazine is not intended for normal people, and it would make there life miserable because of hte suppressed emotions, blocks your ambition and drive.
Even if it was only for sleep, the side effects could still go throught the following day, and you could feel MISERABLE, it would create a similar "zombie" effect that psychostimulants have on ADHD. I know, becuase i take Dexedrine, and before my doseage was adjusted, it was terrible, all i thought, my personality was dulled, and had severe problems relating to people becuase it made conversations have no purpose, I can not descibe to you directly how miserable each day was. Now i've never tooken thorazine myself, but i hear that it has zombie like effects, and suppressed emotions, the effect from my med, many of my friends belived i was cold, and very unfriendly when i was on it, because i had somewhat of a suppressed purpose to even enjoy life in general.
Well enought of that detail, bottem line, i really dont want you on it, becuase in my opionion it may decrease your quality of life due to the side effects. But if it is tolerable, i guess carry along, but i would rather you be on Nembutal for severe insomnia than thorazine.
Take Care
Matt
Posted by Maxime on July 8, 2004, at 19:42:45
In reply to Re: Thorazine » Buckeye Fan, posted by SandyWeb on July 8, 2004, at 14:17:30
Hi I use it for sleep. I take 25 mg which is a low dose. In the old days they would have patients up to 900 mg a day and turn them into zombies.
I find to be a very calming drug. I like it. It doesn't knock you out right away. It has a long half life and so I find it helps my mood swings during the day as well.
At such a low dose you shouldn't have any problems. I would take it over zyprexa or seroquel any day.
MAxime
> Wow, that med sounds SCARY! Thanks for all the info.
>
> But that can't possibly happen just from a low dose for sleep....can it??
>
> Has ANYONE on Babble ever used it??
>
> But I can't sleep, and nothing seems to help. Maybe I should just give it a little try? I don't want to be a zombie, though.
>
> Ugh, what to do.
>
> Sandy
>
Posted by SandyWeb on July 9, 2004, at 6:59:21
In reply to Re: Thorazine, posted by 1980Monroe on July 8, 2004, at 19:07:56
Hi Matt,
Thanks for your concern. I'll keep your advice in mind. I haven't decided what I'll do yet, but I can tell you that my recent trial with Seroquel just isn't working. The p-doc doesn't want to give me anything addictive, so most of what you suggested I wouldn't be able to use.
Take care!
Sandy
Posted by SandyWeb on July 9, 2004, at 7:05:29
In reply to Re: Thorazine, posted by Maxime on July 8, 2004, at 19:42:45
Aha, I knew somebody must use Thorazine. I'm glad to hear that the low dose works well for your insomnia. Do you have any side effects from it, other than the long half-life? Any twitching or increased heart rate? Do you use it every night, or do you space it out for a few days? Do you wake up refreshed and alert, or does the "calming" effect make it hard to get out of bed?
Anything you can let me know about this med would be appreciated. I'm running out of options for insomnia meds, and since Matt raised some very good points for NOT using Thorazine, I'd like to hear more of your point of view.
How long have you been using it? Does it seem to lose its "punch" over time, or is it still just as strong as when you first began using it? Does it give you nightmares? Do you sleep the "sleep of the dead", or can you be woken up?
Curious minds want to know. *smile*
Thanks!
Sandy
Posted by 1980Monroe on July 9, 2004, at 12:14:51
In reply to Re: Thorazine, posted by 1980Monroe on July 8, 2004, at 19:07:56
Posted by SandyWeb on July 9, 2004, at 13:41:35
In reply to Re: well if it works, give it a shot (nm), posted by 1980Monroe on July 9, 2004, at 12:14:51
Actually, I'm not sure if I ever will try it. I've pretty much given up on any med helping me to sleep. I'm not excited to try another one. But my name is in for the Sleep Disorders Clinic, so I'll be interested to say what they have to say when I get tested!
Thanks for all the info and the concern. You done good! *smile*
Sandra
Posted by Maxime on July 12, 2004, at 20:04:19
In reply to Re: Thorazine » Maxime, posted by SandyWeb on July 9, 2004, at 7:05:29
Sorry for the delay in my reply ... I was away.
The only side effect that I get that I don't like is that it can make your breast swollen and painful so I never use it before my period. But I have had trouble with anti-psychotics doing that to me because I have a naturally high level of prolactin. I have lactated on Zyprexa, Seroquel and Rispiridone.
Sometimes I only take 1/2 a pill. It doesn't knock me out. I fall asleep slowly and I have no problem waking up. At such low dose I don't have to worry about developing tics or twitches. I've been using it for a year now and have never taken more than 25 mg. It doesn't lose it's effect.
I think you should try it on evening when you don't have to get out of bed super early just in case your body reacts differently to it. And maybe you would like to try just half a pill. I have tried everything and for me, it's the best I have been on so far.
Let us know!
Maxime
> Aha, I knew somebody must use Thorazine. I'm glad to hear that the low dose works well for your insomnia. Do you have any side effects from it, other than the long half-life? Any twitching or increased heart rate? Do you use it every night, or do you space it out for a few days? Do you wake up refreshed and alert, or does the "calming" effect make it hard to get out of bed?
>
> Anything you can let me know about this med would be appreciated. I'm running out of options for insomnia meds, and since Matt raised some very good points for NOT using Thorazine, I'd like to hear more of your point of view.
>
> How long have you been using it? Does it seem to lose its "punch" over time, or is it still just as strong as when you first began using it? Does it give you nightmares? Do you sleep the "sleep of the dead", or can you be woken up?
>
> Curious minds want to know. *smile*
>
> Thanks!
>
> Sandy
>
Posted by Dinah on July 14, 2004, at 8:17:40
In reply to Thorazine for Insomnia, posted by SandyWeb on July 6, 2004, at 9:37:26
It was prescribed for me in my preteens for sleep terrors. They had told me it was a tranquilizer, and that's what it felt like. It was effective as I recall, and the main reason I quit taking it is that I didn't want to be on meds at all.
But... There are risks of side effects that you need to keep in mind when making your decision.
Posted by SandyWeb on July 15, 2004, at 19:28:43
In reply to Re: Thorazine for Insomnia » SandyWeb, posted by Dinah on July 14, 2004, at 8:17:40
Hi Dinah,
It is encouraging to hear that others have taken Thorazine in small doses for chronic insomnia and the likes.
I still haven't gone to my regular doc to get the script. She pretty much gave up on me many months ago when the first couple of antidepressants didn't help with my anxiety. After that point, I had to research and then have her prescribe the meds I wanted to try. Ugh!!! I don't think either one of us appreciates the other!
When I went to her to request a refill of the Seroquel that my pdoc in the hospital prescribed for my insomnia, she didn't even want to give it to me!! She said that she had been receiving a lot of reports about me, and she didn't want to give me anything after my suicide attempt. So the next day I saw my pdoc again, and he sent a letter to her explaining that I could stay on Seroquel, try Nozinan again (which didn't work before my heart rate went way up!), or I could try Thorazine at 20mg.
I only have about 4 or 5 Seroquels left, and even though they don't keep me asleep all night, they are better than the natural alternative! Lol!
But I'm so uncomfortable to go see my regular doc again. Gosh, I wish I could have another one....but it is so difficult to find a doctor around here accepting new patients.
Anyways, maybe one day I'll be able to let you know if the Thorazine was my miracle sleep med!!! *smile*
Sandy
Posted by tonyalee on April 29, 2007, at 13:40:58
In reply to Re: Thorazine for Insomnia » SandyWeb, posted by Dinah on July 14, 2004, at 8:17:40
> It was prescribed for me in my preteens for sleep terrors. They had told me it was a tranquilizer, and that's what it felt like. It was effective as I recall, and the main reason I quit taking it is that I didn't want to be on meds at all.
>
> But... There are risks of side effects that you need to keep in mind when making your decision.I take parnate (which i highly suggest over nardil for weight gain reasons if that has any interest to you) I take seraquel to sleep which works like a charm! i was originally prescribed Thorazine, but was a bit nervous to take it, then ambien which did not work at all. I have also added topamax to my medication regimen which makes sleeping super easy and i also have to say i have been feeling **a bit optimistic lately :)**
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