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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by 1980Monroe on June 27, 2004, at 18:50:24
Since the major outbreak of benzodiazepines back in the 1960's barbitues were were considered obselete.
I NEVER hear of them being used of them in practice, that i know of.
When do they ever use them, anyways since there old technology.
Posted by anxiety_free on June 27, 2004, at 21:33:25
In reply to are barbiturates still in use?, posted by 1980Monroe on June 27, 2004, at 18:50:24
> Since the major outbreak of benzodiazepines back in the 1960's barbitues were were considered obselete.
>
> I NEVER hear of them being used of them in practice, that i know of.
>
> When do they ever use them, anyways since there old technology.Barbiturates are still used some. They're in some severe-headache meds (Fioricet has a barb in it), used for anaesthesia sometimes, used A LOT in rehab (pentobarbital or phenobarbital are used during detox to keep people sedated+prevent seizures), and occasionally are still used for insomnia, for those that don't respond to more preferrable sleep meds. Seconal and Tuinal for instance are still occasionally prescribed for hard core insomniacs.
Posted by chemist on June 28, 2004, at 3:08:15
In reply to are barbiturates still in use?, posted by 1980Monroe on June 27, 2004, at 18:50:24
> Since the major outbreak of benzodiazepines back in the 1960's barbitues were were considered obselete.
>
> I NEVER hear of them being used of them in practice, that i know of.
>
> When do they ever use them, anyways since there old technology.hello there, chemist here....anxiety_free is - again - spot on. fioricet contains a derivative of a barbituic acid, and a lightweight one at that. nonethe less, seconal, tuinal, and nembutal (despite the marilyn monroe incident) are still prescribed, although mostly for seizure-prone or psychotic (violent) individuals. the benzos are superior, and one may argue that ambien and other related compunds are better yet....all the best, chemist
Posted by 1980Monroe on June 28, 2004, at 21:41:22
In reply to Re: are barbiturates still in use? » 1980Monroe, posted by chemist on June 28, 2004, at 3:08:15
despite the toxity, does "superior" just mean overall better in general effects?
Chemist, this should be a breeze to you so you tell if im wrong, but i belive barbitureates work by opening calcium ion channels, which is maybe why they bring more sedating action than the benzodiazpenines, which only enhance GABA actity but have do not directly effect the ion channels. They both have their specific receptor on the GABA receptors, which the barbiturate receptor are in the inner ring of the channels and is why they open them, benzo's are on the outer top part and dont manipulate the opening, maybe thats why there not toxic.,
i heard barbiturates actualyl can act as GABA at high doses which is intresting.
But if there more sedating, than why are not considered superior?
Matt
Posted by chemist on June 29, 2004, at 2:05:02
In reply to Re: why are benzo's considered superior?, posted by 1980Monroe on June 28, 2004, at 21:41:22
> despite the toxity, does "superior" just mean overall better in general effects?
>
> Chemist, this should be a breeze to you so you tell if im wrong, but i belive barbitureates work by opening calcium ion channels, which is maybe why they bring more sedating action than the benzodiazpenines, which only enhance GABA actity but have do not directly effect the ion channels. They both have their specific receptor on the GABA receptors, which the barbiturate receptor are in the inner ring of the channels and is why they open them, benzo's are on the outer top part and dont manipulate the opening, maybe thats why there not toxic.,
>
> i heard barbiturates actualyl can act as GABA at high doses which is intresting.
>
> But if there more sedating, than why are not considered superior?
>
> Matthi there, chemist here... barbituates are not indicated in GABA neuroransmission, rather in the cortex.....reagardless of the dosoe, very different mechanism. not GABAnergeic activity....all the best, chemist
Posted by Cecilia on June 29, 2004, at 2:16:46
In reply to are barbiturates still in use?, posted by 1980Monroe on June 27, 2004, at 18:50:24
Phenobarbital is still frequently used for seizures in infants and small children. I think the main reason doctors don`t like to prescribe barbiturates is self-protection-fear of a lawsuit in the event of a suicide. They`re covering their assets. Cecilia
Posted by Shawn. T. on June 29, 2004, at 20:31:06
In reply to Re: why are benzo's considered superior?, posted by 1980Monroe on June 28, 2004, at 21:41:22
Several barbiturates inhibit calcium channels; however, I don't know of any that cause them to open. GABA-A receptors modulate chloride channels; these are the channels that barbiturates and benzodiazepines affect. Both drug types attach to different binding sites on GABA-A receptors, which causes the receptors to exhibit a stronger affinity for GABA. Unlike benzodiazepines, barbiturates possess the ability (at higher concentrations) to cause chloride channels in GABA-A receptor complexes to open in the absence of GABA. These channels exhibit at least three different open states which last a varying number of milliseconds. Barbiturates increase the relative frequency of the occurrence of the longest open state and decrease the frequency of the occurrence of the shorter open states (see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=2482885 ). On the other hand, benzodiazepines only increase the frequency that the channels will open into the shortest open state (see http://www.acnp.org/g4/GN401000173/CH169.html ). Also, many barbiturates inhibit nicotinic acetylcholine receptors. Some benzodiazepines affect different targets as well. I've never heard that barbiturates bind to the inside of GABA-A receptor complexes. I don't think that it is accurate to state that barbiturates can act as GABA at high doses; they bind to different locations on the GABA-A receptor and therefore do not elicit the same effects.
Shawn
Posted by jerrympls on June 29, 2004, at 22:42:26
In reply to are barbiturates still in use?, posted by 1980Monroe on June 27, 2004, at 18:50:24
> Since the major outbreak of benzodiazepines back in the 1960's barbitues were were considered obselete.
>
> I NEVER hear of them being used of them in practice, that i know of.
>
> When do they ever use them, anyways since there old technology.I'm a "hard-core insomniac" and had tried EVERYTHING for sleep (this was about 7 years ago) and was in a town without a psych ward. I went to my family doc and said - please put me in the hospital and knock me out! I just want to sleep! So, he finally put me on Nembutal (like Seconal) and explained that tolerance grows rapidly and that it would only work for a month.
Well, it worked for 2 months and was the BEST sleep I have EVER gotten. EVER. I felt so rested and energetic the next day it was so great. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to get my current pdoc to prescribe it during bad insomnia times cause she's too scared of it. Barbituates aren't really bad - unless you take a handful off them. She keeps making the excuse - "It will interrupt your breathing at night and we don't want that." Even after I repeatedly told her that I've been on it without problems.Oh well. Good luck.
Jerry
Posted by 1980Monroe on July 2, 2004, at 16:10:59
In reply to Re: why are benzo's considered superior? » 1980Monroe, posted by Shawn. T. on June 29, 2004, at 20:31:06
sorry about the misinfo in the barb's act as GABA at high doses, i got that off some source some where, but i dont know if it was really accurate or i just misunderstood what they where saying. Ill have to look it back up, but thanks for that info, that i like to know the mechanisms of medications.
This is the end of the thread.
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