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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 8 of 8. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by linkadge on June 28, 2004, at 9:45:56
A lot of us blame the medications when infact much of the reason many of us are treatment resisant is because we most likly have shrunken hippocampases. I know these meds are supposed to help that however. I read a study that showed the people who respond best to paxil were the ones with the largest hippocampases. We are not really figting a war with chemicals as much as we are with brain cells and brain matter.
Neurogenesis is the cure for depression. You can pump as much serotonin into the brain, but if there is no limbic system to appreciated it, you're screwed. It may take years for some of that to repair.
Linkadge
Posted by 4mygrls on June 28, 2004, at 13:12:44
In reply to The reason many of us are treatment resistant, posted by linkadge on June 28, 2004, at 9:45:56
> A lot of us blame the medications when infact much of the reason many of us are treatment resisant is because we most likly have shrunken hippocampases. I know these meds are supposed to help that however. I read a study that showed the people who respond best to paxil were the ones with the largest hippocampases. We are not really figting a war with chemicals as much as we are with brain cells and brain matter.
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> Neurogenesis is the cure for depression. You can pump as much serotonin into the brain, but if there is no limbic system to appreciated it, you're screwed. It may take years for some of that to repair.
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> Linkadge
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what is Neurogenesis? what makes it so much better then any other meds? is it a med?
Posted by linkadge on June 28, 2004, at 13:43:40
In reply to re:The reason many of us are treatment resistant, posted by 4mygrls on June 28, 2004, at 13:12:44
Sorry, let me clarify. There is a product on the market called "Neurogenesis" but this is not what I am referring to.
neruogenesis simply means the birth of new brain cells. It happens all throughout life. All effective antidepressants promote neurogenesis, ie. enhance the development of new brain cells.This is what I mean. In order for the shrunken hippocampas to be restored, new brain cells must grow and take the place of the ones killed off by chonic anxiety.
So in reality, neurogenesis is the final target for effective antidepressants.
But what I am really getting at here, is for those of us who seem extremely treatment resistant, it is probably because of extremely shrunken hippocampases and not really a chemical imlallence per se.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on June 28, 2004, at 16:45:25
In reply to re:The reason many of us are treatment resistant, posted by linkadge on June 28, 2004, at 13:43:40
> So in reality, neurogenesis is the final target for effective antidepressants.I'm not so sure about that. It may not be so much a target as it is a consequence of rectifying dysfunctions (targets) somewhere else upstream. I wouldn't think that there would be sufficient neurogenesis taking place within the two weeks it takes for many people to feel better to account for such a robust treatment response so early. I am just guessing, of course. Much of the machinery of the synapse operates with a periodicity of two weeks (receptor sensitivity, receptor turnover, second messenger modulated gene transcripton, etc.), making these sites more attractive candidates for facilitating the therapeutic response in my opinion. (I reserve the right to change my opinion at any time). ;-)
Analogy: skeletal muscleA muscle that has atrophied as the result of disuse will not exhibit hypertrophy until it is used again. Its use is dependant upon the health and activity of the innervating nerves upstream. If you sever the nerves, the muscle shrinks. Only after the nerves are repaired does the muscle grow again. The targets are therefore the dysfunctional nerves, not the muscle. Furthermore, like the hippocampus, muscle tissue is weakened further by the catabolism produced by exposure to excessive amounts of cortisol.
I tend to think that the shrinking of the hippocampus is the consequence of depression and that its rejuvination is the consequence of recovery.
Where can I find more information on this?
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on June 28, 2004, at 16:50:55
In reply to re:The reason many of us are treatment resistant, posted by SLS on June 28, 2004, at 16:45:25
You are certainly right. I felt an antianxiety effect within 48 hours of starting celexa. But I think that a long term remission from depression is one in which depressed size and density of certain structures returns to normal.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on June 29, 2004, at 6:22:08
In reply to re:The reason many of us are treatment resistant, posted by linkadge on June 28, 2004, at 16:50:55
> You are certainly right. I felt an antianxiety effect within 48 hours of starting celexa. But I think that a long term remission from depression is one in which depressed size and density of certain structures returns to normal.
I agree.Thank God for the plascticity of the brain.
- Scott
Posted by Emme on June 29, 2004, at 9:23:49
In reply to The reason many of us are treatment resistant, posted by linkadge on June 28, 2004, at 9:45:56
Posted by barbaracat on June 29, 2004, at 19:08:47
In reply to re:The reason many of us are treatment resistant, posted by SLS on June 29, 2004, at 6:22:08
I sure agree with this. The hypothalamus takes a real beating as well from ACTH and can't perform it's proper hormonal signalling. The severe stress I suffered as a child most certainly affected my developing brain and I'm convinced that my mood disorder and fibromyalgia are the result. But nothing is cast in stone in a bio-system that is regenerative and very adaptive.
There's so much more going on with the brain than recycling neurotransmitters at the synaptic level - IF that's even what's going on with these meds. Thre's the second messenger system within the cell, the cAMP and DNA conversion, the electrical potential, neurotoxins, endocrine disruptors. Whew, there's alot going on within these cells. But I really think early stress causes structural damage to the limbic system. It's like a faulty radio.
This is where brain plasticity agents come in - fish oil, and growth factor enhancers like lithium and inositol and so on. Things that grow new connections and heal, instead of blasting out radio programs without fixing the radio receiver. Neurogenesis, yes! We can't give up hope. And pray to God we can find a way to stop the legacy of abuse to our children. - BarbaraCat
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> I agree.
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> Thank God for the plascticity of the brain.
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> - Scott
This is the end of the thread.
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