Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 346577

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Dopamine and Neopinephrine questionshelp?

Posted by morel1 on May 13, 2004, at 19:53:10

Helloo Babblers,

Well quick history of myself. I have suffered from fatigue and anxiety for over 10years, basically can count on one hand of how many good night sleeps i've had in the past ten years. Suffered from social anxiety as a teenager, better with that now. Have gone to many sleep clinics and no obvious sleep apnea or physical disturbance so attributed to depression. Have been on paxil, Remeron(too sedating), Effexor(worked well the first time not the second) - now on Celexa 30mg(good for anxiety but does nothing for depression or fatigue- been on 30mg for 2 weeks). Have tried different slpeeping pills but just makes me feel tired the next tired. Anyway main question is that well I'm planning to take Wellbutirin soon and am really hopeful. First being the fact that the only time i felt good was on effexor and that helps with serotonin and neopinephrine(may need spell chk). I know(i think) that wellbutrin effects dopamine and neopinephrine. My question is that what are the symtoms of lack of dopamine and/ or neopinephrine. All i want is to feel like i have actually rested the night before. I look like i haven't slept for years and i feel tired just the same to say the least. I'm hoping that wellbutrin well enrgize me to the point i will just pass out at the end of the day. If this doesn't work i just don't know what i'll do.... anyways experience with similar symtoms of lack of thses two chemicals or anykind of info would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks to whoever can help

Later, ML

 

Re: Dopamine and Neopinephrine questionshelp?

Posted by Tony P on May 13, 2004, at 21:52:57

In reply to Dopamine and Neopinephrine questionshelp?, posted by morel1 on May 13, 2004, at 19:53:10

My understanding in very simple terms is that lack of dopamine at the receptors we're talking about here causes anhedonia - i.e. no pleasure, joy or zest for life; while lack of norepinephrine causes low energy, physical retardation (e.g. can't walk fast), low motivation, etc.

I've been on Wellbutrin, and the effect (after 3-5 days)is certainly stimulating, almost like Ritalin combined with a little Valium. I understand its main mechanism is indeed dopamine and NE (that's easier than spelling it <g>)activation, although the details get a bit too complicated for me.

I suspect it CAN activate serotonin too, as I had a bad reaction when I took Serzone with it, something very like Serotonin Syndrome happened, although I suppose it might have been just too much NE too.

I felt great, although a bit hyper and anxious on Wellbutrin. Unfortunately, my experience was NOT good for insomnia -- the activation kept me going all night like the Eveready Bunny, so I had to take other meds to get any sleep. I even tried taking it last thing at night, because the sedative effect kicks in before the activation - but then I woke up after 5-6 hrs.

My response was extreme, though, judging by other posts here - your idea that it may tire you out enough to sleep well might just work for you. Maybe also try adding moderate exercise (but not last thing at night) if you're not doing much already. I didn't do enough exercising myself, but I know it does help -- I sure had the energy for it, I just got my priorities wrong and got obsessed with other activities, like posting on Psychobabble!.

Tony

 

Re: Dopamine and Norepinephrine questionshelp?

Posted by finelinebob on May 13, 2004, at 23:56:02

In reply to Dopamine and Neopinephrine questionshelp?, posted by morel1 on May 13, 2004, at 19:53:10

> ... now on Celexa 30mg(good for anxiety but does nothing for depression or fatigue- been on 30mg for 2 weeks).

BTW ... 2 weeks is too short a period to evaluate an SSRI. Not that I'm a a big fan of that class of meds, but you've gotta give them more like a month AFAIK...



> I know(i think) that wellbutrin effects dopamine and neopinephrine.

http://www.mentalhealth.com/drug/p30-b04.html#Head_2
MentalHealth.com's monograph says it works on all of the Big Three -- seratonin, norepinephrine and dopamine.



> My question is that what are the symtoms of lack of dopamine and/ or neopinephrine.

Whatever we do know, seems to me it can't be **enough**. There's no blood test that will map levels of these neurotransmitters to DSM-IV dx's or symptoms. I mean, if there was, then a blood test would tell your doc what meds you need the FIRST time around, and where's the fun in that?!

aCk! 8*b

From what Tony P said, tho, if low levels of norephinephrine has been tagged as something that would cause "physical retardation", then maybe trying a tricyclic would be a better step than switching to wellbutrin. It's basic experimental methodology -- change one variable at a time. If SSRIs aren't doing it for you then you switch to wellbutrin and it works, there are seven possible explanations:

1) wellbutrin affects seratonin differently from the SSRIs you tried, and it works, or
2) it affects norepinephrine in a way that works, or
3) it affects dopamine in a way that works, or
4) it affects seratonin AND norepinephrine in a way that works, or
5) it affects seratonin AND dopamine in a way that works, or
6) it affects norepinephrine AND dopamine in a way that works, or
7) it affects seratonin AND norepinephrine AND dopamine in a way that works.

Well, there are some other possiblities as well (ugh! each of these 7 can logically interact with each other), but we'll leave it at that. However, if you switch to a tricyclic and it works, the answer is most likely:

1) it affects norepinephrine in a way that works

and that's pretty much it. If you want to read up a little on possible TCAs, check out this thread:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20040510/msgs/345436.html

hth,
flb

 

Re: Dopamine and Norepinephrine questionshelp?

Posted by morel1 on May 14, 2004, at 22:39:20

In reply to Re: Dopamine and Norepinephrine questionshelp?, posted by finelinebob on May 13, 2004, at 23:56:02

Thank you guys,

Ok all I have to say is THANK YOU for giving me such detailed and lengthy responses. I really do appreciate the invaluable info you have givin me. It's just I'm putting a lot of hope on wellbutrin to somehow bring out the person I can be. I mean I've been tired, slow witted, look like crap and basically in a brain fog for years and for me to get out of this would be a miracle for me. The facts that you have givin get me excited to try it but i am, as silly as it sounds scared to see this med fail. Ah well, anyway... I have headed back to the gym recently to put weight back on I have lost through a recent break down I had a couple of months ago and slowly I'm getting back into shape but i'm also weary of the appetite suppresion this med might have, since i have a fast metabolism and feel weak when i don't eat enough. As well I didn't realize wellbutrin had effects on serotonin - how so? And tca's have an increase in side effects i've heard. Just wanted to vent and fup with u guys for whatever reason. THANK YOU guys again,

later,

Morel

 

A couple of things... ยป morel1

Posted by finelinebob on May 14, 2004, at 23:11:57

In reply to Re: Dopamine and Norepinephrine questionshelp?, posted by morel1 on May 14, 2004, at 22:39:20

> ... It's just I'm putting a lot of hope on wellbutrin to somehow bring out the person I can be... The facts that you have givin get me excited to try it but i am, as silly as it sounds scared to see this med fail.

That's not at all silly. Not one bit. But when it comes to meds, "putting all your eggs in one basket" can set yourself up for disappointment. Have hope, but remember you'll need to give whatever you try next some time to work.


> ... And tca's have an increase in side effects i've heard.

Seems like we have an unofficial TCA fan club around here (ooh! me! me!). There are a number of TCAs with favorable side effect profiles, and it seems that the marketing efforts of the SSRI manufacturers were overstating their advantages. But what it gets down to, I think, is this: If you don't have a problem with transmitter A, then any med affecting A is going to be "dirty". If you do have a problem with A, then any med affecting A is less likely to be "dirty". SSRIs ripped me to shreds, TCAs don't and one of the two I've tried helps dramatically. I doubt my problems are based in my seratonin levels. Knowhutimean?

So, what you've heard may not apply to you.

good luck!
flb


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