![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 29 to 53 of 53. Go back in thread:
Posted by AMenz on July 14, 2001, at 0:04:51
In reply to regular Klonopin users, posted by Pattisun on July 9, 2001, at 6:16:18
I'm on lorezapam which I can't get off of. It makes me groggy, gives me memory lapses, and is overly sedating even at only 1 mg a day.
How is Klonopin on these issues. Is it a benzo?
> The psychiatrist that the family practice doctor insisted I go to told me that Klonopin was NOT a drug that you can get a high from, so he was not concerned about me being on it. And, that Klonopin was not a drug his 'recreational drug user patients' tried to get.
>
> He wrote a report back to my doctor that said my anxiety disorder was "moderately well controlled and my use of Klonopin should not be interrupted"
>
> And, as far as Klonopin and recreational drug use--well, back in the 80s I used to get Klonopin from my girlfriend because they were the perfect soother after a bout of cocaine use. {{that's that period of life when I briefly lost all control of myself and used cocaine for a while}}--that's hard to admit to.
>
> I leave Klonopin at work on a prescription bottle OR in a Motrin bottle, just in case ((I've rushed to work in the mornings, forgetting to bring it with me)) . And, I've never discussed Klonopin with anyone, just told them it's meds I have to take every day. Never take my Klonopin bottle with me (just because I always kept that one at home with the refill # so I can call the pharmacy). And, of course I do have a purse, but I also keep Klonopin in my fanny pack, or in my husband's fanny pack (if I am not carrying one). I've ridden big roller coasters and it's set off a panic attack, or I work out too hard.
>
> I take my Klonopin at 11:00 and 2:00 (or close to it). And, on a really bad night or during a bad panic attack I'll take another one (.5 mg). They no longer make me sleepy at all--it's been six years for me. And, I have a pretty functional life THANKS to Klonopin (and cognitive therapy).
>
> Good luck to both of you. Never met anyone else besides me that took it until I just found this board.
Posted by Else on July 14, 2001, at 5:09:35
In reply to Re: regular Klonopin users: Does it impair memory, posted by AMenz on July 14, 2001, at 0:04:51
Klonopin and lorazepam (Ativan), are both benzos but Ativan is short-acting which means in comes along with a lot of nasty withdrawal symptoms. I can take it at 2mg/day for one week and get terrible rebound anxiety after 10-12 hours, and withdrawal symptoms at the end of the week. MY doctor once told me Ativan produced the worst withdrawal symptoms of all benzos. My experience with Klonopin, which is long-acting, has been much more positive although I have never been on it for very long periods (years). I assume there are withdrawal symptoms but since doctors use other long-acting benzos like Valium and Librium (which are a bit longer acting than Klonopin) to do progressive detox, the detox from Klonopin shouldn't be as bad as with some other drugs. I personnaly find it's much easier on the body than Ativan or even Xanax.
> I'm on lorezapam which I can't get off of. It makes me groggy, gives me memory lapses, and is overly sedating even at only 1 mg a day.
>
> How is Klonopin on these issues. Is it a benzo?
>
Posted by JahL on July 14, 2001, at 10:06:05
In reply to Re: regular Klonopin users: Does it impair memory, posted by AMenz on July 14, 2001, at 0:04:51
> I'm on lorezapam which I can't get off of. It makes me groggy, gives me memory lapses, and is overly sedating even at only 1 mg a day.
>
> How is Klonopin on these issues. Is it a benzo?Klonopin has a reputation for not being entirely helpful with memory. Prozac antagonises Klonopin, the dose of which I have just doubled, having just re-started Prozac. My memory is shot & I spend an ave. of an hour a day looking for my car keys.
Low doses don't make me groggy but help with sleep/night-waking etc. Above 2mg & I sleep for 24hrs.
J.
Posted by Janelle on July 14, 2001, at 16:02:45
In reply to Re: regular Klonopin users: Does it impair memory, posted by Else on July 14, 2001, at 5:09:35
As a long-term Klonopin user (1 - 1.5 mg/day, depending on conditions), I didn't think about it impairing memory until you raised the question, and now I'm wondering because my long-term memory ain't what it used to be. However, I think that this is due to there being years now of incredible stress in my life, so much to deal with and think about that my brain can only "hold" so much. I've never heard anything about Klonopin impairing memory. Hmmmm ...
If it has impaired my l-t memory, I'd rather have that than live with the anxiety that Klonopin helps me with.
As far as Klonopin being addictive and having withdrawal if you go off it, it's "less" addictive than the short acting benzo's and is said to be the LEAST addictive, but IS nonetheless addictive and should be tapered off GRADUALLY.
Posted by Zo on July 14, 2001, at 16:57:28
In reply to Re: regular Klonopin users: Does it impair memory, posted by Else on July 14, 2001, at 5:09:35
That is so interesting. I never had any problem getting off *any* benzo, even Xanax, and most *especially* not Ativan/lorazepam. We are all so different!
Zo
Posted by Janelle on July 14, 2001, at 18:19:50
In reply to Re: regular Klonopin users: Does it impair memory » Else, posted by Zo on July 14, 2001, at 16:57:28
You said that you never had any problem getting off *any* benzo - did you just stop (cold turkey) taking them?
I ask you because I think I'll probably be going off Klonopin soon, and wonder if I should taper or just stop cold turkey? (I'll ask the doc too of course!)
I have found that if I forget to take Klonopin, even for a few days, NOTHING "bad" happens, whereas if I skipped Paxil for even one day - woo boy, I'd get that "electric head" and have a nightmare.
Posted by Else on July 14, 2001, at 20:54:06
In reply to Re: regular Klonopin users: Does it impair memory » Else, posted by Janelle on July 14, 2001, at 16:02:45
There is no doubt in my mind that Klonopin impairs memory but I'm not entirely sure that this is a bad thing. I have always had this exceptional memory. I made it through high school without studying, simply because I could vaguely overhear what the teacher said and store this information somehow, whithout even trying. Every drug I've taken that was effective against anxiety caused me some level of memory impairment ( this includes most benzos and SSRIs.) It's a price I'm willing to pay considering I can probably spare the lost learning skills. Something tells me memory and anxiety are closely related. Aren't the most embarassing moments in your life those you can remember the most vividly? In any event, this has led me to believe that benzos just make me "normal". Most people are not as anxious as me and they clearly do not possess the memory I possess. I, for example, am the only person I know who can remember a phone number the first time I hear it without even writing it down. Well, I can't do that anymore but really, so what.
> As a long-term Klonopin user (1 - 1.5 mg/day, depending on conditions), I didn't think about it impairing memory until you raised the question, and now I'm wondering because my long-term memory ain't what it used to be. However, I think that this is due to there being years now of incredible stress in my life, so much to deal with and think about that my brain can only "hold" so much. I've never heard anything about Klonopin impairing memory. Hmmmm ...
>
> If it has impaired my l-t memory, I'd rather have that than live with the anxiety that Klonopin helps me with.
>
> As far as Klonopin being addictive and having withdrawal if you go off it, it's "less" addictive than the short acting benzo's and is said to be the LEAST addictive, but IS nonetheless addictive and should be tapered off GRADUALLY.
Posted by Else on July 14, 2001, at 20:59:26
In reply to Re: regular Klonopin users: Does it impair memory » Else, posted by Zo on July 14, 2001, at 16:57:28
Really? Ativan was the benzo from hell for me. It's probably because at some point I was taking 6 mg daily (a hefty dose) and was cut off with no tapering. That was a horrible but thankfully brief withdrawal. Ever since, I can't take Ativan without these withdrawal symptoms showing up again, even at low doses. I don't know what happenned but I stay away from short-acting benzos now just in case.
> That is so interesting. I never had any problem getting off *any* benzo, even Xanax, and most *especially* not Ativan/lorazepam. We are all so different!
>
> Zo
Posted by Rick on July 15, 2001, at 17:37:23
In reply to Re: Giving up/Klonopin ENHANCED Cognitive Function » Joe Schmoe, posted by Rick on July 1, 2001, at 17:41:28
I've been taking Klonopin daily for two years, and for about six months I've been having some memory lapses beyond what was normal for me pre-meds. (However, the overall cognitive *enhancement* that comes from focusing on things besides anxiety strongly outweighs the recall annoyances.)
I'd say the memory lapse is probably NOT due to Konopin per se, but rather due to any one or more of:
A) Serzone, which I started about a year ago
B) Combining Serzone and Klonopin (although
I'm taking less Klonopin than I did pre-
Serzone)
C) Getting older
D) Insufficient sleep (not insomnia, just staying
up too late because I'm busy or I'm spending
too much time on the net...oops)Not long ago I experimented with cutting back on each med (1.25 to .5 mg Klonopin, and 450 mg to zero Serzone), and there was a very clear improvement in the memory situation when the Serzone got to a low dose. Unfortunately, but not unexpectedly, my strong Social Anxiety cocktail wasn't quite as effective without the Sezone. The Klonopin decrease (with Serzone still at 450) didn't seem to improve the situation at all. OTOH, I may not have let the experiment go on long enough to draw the best conclusions. And maybe I should've tried cutting down on my third med as well (Provigil), but I'd be very surprised if that one was contributing to memory lapses.
I know Klonopin causes memory problems for some people, especially at higher doses. It certainly has a reputation for having that potential. I know many people also complain of memory deficits with Serzone, Effexor, and other AD's as well. I have a friend who is taking Serzone solo, and she's ecstatic with how it's helped her GAD, but she's now having memory lapses as well.
But for myself, especially after that little test, I have a feeling Klonopin is NOT the main culprit.
*****Which leads me to a question: Does anyone -- especialy Klonopin users who have had memory problems -- know if it can take a whole year before the lapses start to occur? Even if the dose has been titrated down instead of remaining stable or increasing?*****
Fyi, the long-term memory lapses are annoying, but the short-term ones are most problematic. "Rick, I have a question about that report you're pulling together for tomorrow." "Oh...yeah...THAT report...uh, what's the question?"...as I frantically try to recall the details, with success levels ranging from all-comes-flooding-back-instantly to near-complete amnesia on some occasions. (Once in awhile I'm pretty sure it's the OTHER person who is confused.) I have been a little disorganized and overworked as of late, and I've never been one to remember details (the RELEVANT ones, that is!), but I'm sure there's more to it than that.
Rick
Posted by AMenz on July 15, 2001, at 18:37:47
In reply to Re: Klonopin memory probs? Or ADs? Or...???, posted by Rick on July 15, 2001, at 17:37:23
Thanks for all your responses. It cleared up my confusion on this topic.
> I've been taking Klonopin daily for two years, and for about six months I've been having some memory lapses beyond what was normal for me pre-meds. (However, the overall cognitive *enhancement* that comes from focusing on things besides anxiety strongly outweighs the recall annoyances.)
>
> I'd say the memory lapse is probably NOT due to Konopin per se, but rather due to any one or more of:
>
> A) Serzone, which I started about a year ago
> B) Combining Serzone and Klonopin (although
> I'm taking less Klonopin than I did pre-
> Serzone)
> C) Getting older
> D) Insufficient sleep (not insomnia, just staying
> up too late because I'm busy or I'm spending
> too much time on the net...oops)
>
> Not long ago I experimented with cutting back on each med (1.25 to .5 mg Klonopin, and 450 mg to zero Serzone), and there was a very clear improvement in the memory situation when the Serzone got to a low dose. Unfortunately, but not unexpectedly, my strong Social Anxiety cocktail wasn't quite as effective without the Sezone. The Klonopin decrease (with Serzone still at 450) didn't seem to improve the situation at all. OTOH, I may not have let the experiment go on long enough to draw the best conclusions. And maybe I should've tried cutting down on my third med as well (Provigil), but I'd be very surprised if that one was contributing to memory lapses.
>
> I know Klonopin causes memory problems for some people, especially at higher doses. It certainly has a reputation for having that potential. I know many people also complain of memory deficits with Serzone, Effexor, and other AD's as well. I have a friend who is taking Serzone solo, and she's ecstatic with how it's helped her GAD, but she's now having memory lapses as well.
>
> But for myself, especially after that little test, I have a feeling Klonopin is NOT the main culprit.
>
> *****Which leads me to a question: Does anyone -- especialy Klonopin users who have had memory problems -- know if it can take a whole year before the lapses start to occur? Even if the dose has been titrated down instead of remaining stable or increasing?*****
>
> Fyi, the long-term memory lapses are annoying, but the short-term ones are most problematic. "Rick, I have a question about that report you're pulling together for tomorrow." "Oh...yeah...THAT report...uh, what's the question?"...as I frantically try to recall the details, with success levels ranging from all-comes-flooding-back-instantly to near-complete amnesia on some occasions. (Once in awhile I'm pretty sure it's the OTHER person who is confused.) I have been a little disorganized and overworked as of late, and I've never been one to remember details (the RELEVANT ones, that is!), but I'm sure there's more to it than that.
>
>
> Rick
Posted by Willow on July 15, 2001, at 20:30:54
In reply to Re: Klonopin memory probs? Or ADs? Or...???, posted by Rick on July 15, 2001, at 17:37:23
I had a sleep test done several months ago and go see the doctor in a couple weeks regarding the results, moderate periodic limb movements resulting in some arousal from sleep. The first line of treatment for this I believe is Klonopin, hence my reason for following this thread.
Rick raised some concerns which I have. Definitely when I'm more tired I'm more easily confused, but the effexor has helped with this. Has anyone else had an AD help with memory problems and thinking problems? And taking a drug such as Klonopin, will it worsen the memory process? Recently I took one dose of lorazepam, .5mg, and the fatigue was severe for several days, had to fight to stay awake. Later I tried a second dose out of curiosity, the same thing. Is Klonopin similar to lorazepam?
Willow
Posted by Neal on July 15, 2001, at 23:40:38
In reply to To ZO: re getting off benzos:, posted by Janelle on July 14, 2001, at 18:19:50
Janelle- I wouldn't advise stopping Klonopin cold turkey. Klonopin is a long-acting benzo, so you can cut way back suddenly (like I did) and think you're home free, and then on the third or fourth day the roof caves in . . . . (YMMV of course).
Posted by Janelle on July 16, 2001, at 0:10:54
In reply to re getting off benzos: » Janelle, posted by Neal on July 15, 2001, at 23:40:38
Neal - thanks for the advice - I am NOT planning to stop Klonopin cold turkey because I've heard that even though it's a long-acting benzo, it IS addictive and I've been on it a long time. However, I think I take low dose (0.5 - 1.5 mg/day depending on circumstances; usually 1 mg/day) and I have had times when I had to go up to 2 or 3 mg/day, then cut back down to 1 mg/day with no problem.
However, if and when I'm able to get off it I sure will do so slowly and gradually (probably reduce to 0.5mg/day for a few weeks, then maybe even cut that in half for awhile!) I went through Paxil withdrawal where the roof caved in and do not want to experience anything remotely like that again. Thanks for the feedback.
-Janelle
Posted by Rick on July 16, 2001, at 2:05:14
In reply to Re: Klonopin memory probs? Or ADs? Or...???, posted by Willow on July 15, 2001, at 20:30:54
> I had a sleep test done several months ago and go see the doctor in a couple weeks regarding the results, moderate periodic limb movements resulting in some arousal from sleep. The first line of treatment for this I believe is Klonopin, hence my reason for following this thread.
>
> Rick raised some concerns which I have. Definitely when I'm more tired I'm more easily confused, but the effexor has helped with this. Has anyone else had an AD help with memory problems and thinking problems? And taking a drug such as Klonopin, will it worsen the memory process? Recently I took one dose of lorazepam, .5mg, and the fatigue was severe for several days, had to fight to stay awake. Later I tried a second dose out of curiosity, the same thing. Is Klonopin similar to lorazepam?
>
> WillowWillow -
I don't know how much Effexor you're taking, but if the dose is high enough it is often has stimulating qualities driven by norepinephrine reuptake inhibition, which could enhance alertness. This is based on what I've read and seen posted, not what I've personally experienced. I'm interested in hear more first-hand AD cogniton-enhancing experiences, too.
As for your Ativan (lorazepam) reaction, I don't think it's typical for fatigue from one dose of a benzo to last for days, even in the early stages of use. Ativan, in particular, should have about the quickest on/off effect of all of them because of its short half life. There might be some "crashing" fatigue afterward, but a good nap -- or at least a night's rest --should take care of that. I'll be interested in what others have to say on personal experiences re this situation, too. I assume you'll be discussing this with your doctor. If you are, say, a poor metabolizer of lorazepam, she may may want you to take a tiny dose or avoid it completely -- especially if you start using Klonopin.
As for Periodic Limb Movement Disorder, the same friend whose GAD responded to Serzone was diagnosed with PLMD after a sleep study over five years ago. They gave her what was then a "new anticonvulsant drug" called Neurontin, 300 mg before bedtime, which was promptly successful in treating the PLMD with no side effects.
Actually, while Klonopin is indeed often used for PLMD, the favored treatments these days seem to be dopamine agonists that are indicated primarily for Parkinson's, with Mirapex being the "hottest" at the moment. Before that it was pergolide (Permax) and bromocriptine. Of course, many still use these. My friend was seeing some return of PLMD syptoms early last year, and based on net research she tried pergolide. There was no improvement, and there were some mildly unpleasant side effects. So she went back to Neurontin, but this time 400 mg (I gave her a big supply of monster 800 mg pills from my failed trial of Neurontin for Social Phobia, and she cut them in half). This, plus avoiding booze too soon before bedtime, did the trick.
Isn't it interesting that all of the PLMD drugs I mentioned are used successfully in mood disorders, as well? (Tough evidence for psychotropic or psychotropic-augmentation benfits from bromocriptine and especially pergolide is spotty.)
Good Luck,
Rick
Posted by Else on July 17, 2001, at 6:29:53
In reply to Re: Klonopin memory probs? Or ADs? Or...???, posted by Rick on July 15, 2001, at 17:37:23
< snip >
(However, the overall cognitive *enhancement* that comes from focusing on things besides anxiety strongly outweighs the recall annoyances.)
You said it. I couldn't agree more.
Posted by Zo on July 17, 2001, at 21:00:45
In reply to To ZO: re getting off benzos:, posted by Janelle on July 14, 2001, at 18:19:50
> You said that you never had any problem getting off *any* benzo - did you just stop (cold turkey) taking them?
>
> I ask you because I think I'll probably be going off Klonopin soon, and wonder if I should taper or just stop cold turkey? (I'll ask the doc too of course!)
>
> I have found that if I forget to take Klonopin, even for a few days, NOTHING "bad" happens, whereas if I skipped Paxil for even one day - woo boy, I'd get that "electric head" and have a nightmare.I had the WORST junkie-like withdrawal of my life. . .stopping Desyrel (trazadone) cold once, on the bad advice of a bad GP.
I'd use your intuition and sense of yourself. Tapering is advisable under any circumstances, but I always went off Klonopin, Xanax, Ativan and the like in pretty big drops, over the course of a week, without much of a kickback at all. I've been more addicted to wheat - no joke.
Good Luck,
Zo
Posted by Janelle on July 17, 2001, at 23:02:52
In reply to Re: To ZO: re getting off benzos: » Janelle, posted by Zo on July 17, 2001, at 21:00:45
Good description (sorry you had to go through it) of "JUNKIE-LIKE" withdrawal from Trazadone; that's exactly how I felt withdrawing from Paxil waaaaay too quickly, on the bad advice of a good pdoc.
If or when the time comes, I WILL taper off Klonopin gradually. I'm on a "low" dose (1 mg/day), but have been on the stuff for so long that I think it prudent to taper gradually, like 0.5 for awhile, then maybe even 0.25 for awhile (I have a great pill cutter thingee majig).
Glad to hear that always went off Klonopin, Xanax, Ativan and the like in pretty big drops, over the course of a week, without much of a kickback at all. And I can relate to your saying that you have been more addicted to wheat - no joke here either.
-Janelle
Posted by Elizabeth on July 19, 2001, at 12:04:52
In reply to Re: To ZO: re getting off benzos: » Janelle, posted by Zo on July 17, 2001, at 21:00:45
> I had the WORST junkie-like withdrawal of my life. . .stopping Desyrel (trazadone) cold once, on the bad advice of a bad GP.
Heh: trazodone, that well-known drug of abuse. < g > In what sense was it "junkie-like?"
Never abruptly discontinue a drug that you've been taking for a long time (except for some very long-acting drugs, such as Prozac, and even Prozac causes problems for some people).
> Tapering is advisable under any circumstances, but I always went off Klonopin, Xanax, Ativan and the like in pretty big drops, over the course of a week, without much of a kickback at all.
The only one I've ever taken regularly was Klonopin, and I only took it for a few weeks (a month, give or take). But I didn't have any trouble stopping, and I was taking a moderately high dose (4 mg/day).
> I've been more addicted to wheat - no joke.
Dare I ask about your lifelong struggle with wheat addiction? :)
-elizabeth
Posted by sar on July 19, 2001, at 17:01:41
In reply to Re: Klonopin memory probs? Or ADs? Or...??? » Rick, posted by Else on July 17, 2001, at 6:29:53
I just started klonopin a few weeks ago. For the first couple of weeks, my memory and cognition were shot to HELL! I could not perform even the simplest of tasks and routinely forgot where I was going/what I was doing.
My body has seemed to adjust, and while I don't feel as smart, I certainly feel more comfortable. What a trade-off, eh? I'm supposed to take it twice daily but often skip the second dose in favor of drinking. Do not feel any withdrawal.
I take .5 mg klonopin twice daily (sometimes) with 40 mg Prozac (always). Seems to be a good combo.
sar
Posted by Zo on July 20, 2001, at 3:01:24
In reply to Re: getting off benzos: » Zo, posted by Elizabeth on July 19, 2001, at 12:04:52
> Heh: trazodone, that well-known drug of abuse. < g > In what sense was it "junkie-like?"
Actually an old doc of mine knew another doc who *did* abuse trazadone. Woulda if I coulda. Anytime I tried it again for sleep, in years past, got a few pleasantly manic nights out of it, but that's it.
Junkie-like as in sweat, nausea, skin-crawling. . .you know, like in a bad movie.
> > I've been more addicted to wheat - no joke.
>
> Dare I ask about your lifelong struggle with wheat addiction? :)
>
> -elizabethHey, I don't go near the stuff anymore!
It's the only substance - not chocolate, sugar, whatever - where my body spins out of control: more more more.
How I stay Clean: Just Don't Eat That First Slice!
Zo
Posted by Elizabeth on July 20, 2001, at 16:50:08
In reply to Re: getting off benzos: » Elizabeth, posted by Zo on July 20, 2001, at 3:01:24
> Actually an old doc of mine knew another doc who *did* abuse trazadone.
I'd say to anyone who abuses trazodone: get a life! < g >
> Woulda if I coulda. Anytime I tried it again for sleep, in years past, got a few pleasantly manic nights out of it, but that's it.
Pleasantly manic isn't the worst you could do.
> Junkie-like as in sweat, nausea, skin-crawling...you know, like in a bad movie.
Ahh. Well, antidepressants can cause that kind of stuff (withdrawal symptoms) too. (Any drug that you've been taking regularly for a while can.)
[re wheatism:]
> It's the only substance - not chocolate, sugar, whatever - where my body spins out of control: more more more.
>
> How I stay Clean: Just Don't Eat That First Slice!So you think it's true that wheat addicts can't even have a little piece of bread once in a while?
-elizabeth
Posted by anodyne on April 28, 2004, at 12:45:47
In reply to Re: One more try - Klonopin and Wellbutrin, posted by Joe Schmoe on July 8, 2001, at 19:38:55
> Wanted to see if you still were taking the Klonopin/Wellbutrin combination. Your story is so similar to mine and I was prescibed this exact same thing, after similar reluctance to Klonopin. My doc was finally able to convince me through anecdotal cases that Klonopin can be effective at steady doses for long periods of time. I am still concerned though but willing to try it, I want relief.
I know this is an old post, but I would love to hear how it was working out after 3+ years.
> > There are certainly a minority of people who fall outside the typical pattern. It's generally been felt -- even by non-benzophobic docs -- that benzos should be "used cautiously if at all" for individuals with a history of substance abuse or addiction. But some very recent studies are demonstrating that even this caution has been overstated in many cases.
>
> I wonder how "substance abuse" is defined. Are we talking people who smoked pot in college, or hardcore crack users trying to quit their habit?
>
> What do these people do? Just take higher and higher doses of Klonopin to try to get high?
>
>
> > Can't you make sure you have at least a little Klonopin on you at all times, say in a little pillbox? (CVS has a great unobtrusive little round one. I taped some cotton to the bottom of the lid to keep the pills from rattling around as I walk.)
>
> How similar our lives are. I have a little round gold pillbox that I pad with tissue paper so the pills don't rattle around, that I keep Xanax and Inderal in. I am always afraid of someone finding it - when sitting in deep chairs I find sometimes it slips out of my pocket (women have an advantage with purses!) and I have left it behind on chairs before. Of course when I realized it, there was a frantic search to go find it before someone else did. The big problem is not the convenience, it is trying to hide this stuff all the time. I usually keep it in my locked messy desk drawer at work now to avoid this problem. It also keeps my body heat from breaking down the medicine as it would if it was sitting in my pocket all the time. I am tempted to put it in some kind of prescription bottle, say a Claritin one or something, and just not make an effort to hide my taking it. I am tired of sneaking around. There must be a way for men without purses to work these things into their lives conveniently.
>
> >Even if you took Klonopin regularly, missing a day probably wouldn't be too awful because of the long half-life.
>
> I was more worried about missing a few hours than a day. If you are on an all-day assignment somewhere for example, it would be a catastrophe if your xanax ran out halfway through the day!
>
> >Did you run out of Xanax a lot?
>
> More of a case that I could really tell when a dose was wearing off. The anxiety would shoot upwards. Was it just my normal anxiety returning, or was it benzo-caused rebound anxiety? It is hard to tell, but it was a nasty effect, especially since it might take 30 or 45 minutes for the next dose to kick in. People would see you go from jumpy and nervous to dopey in the course of an hour. It must raise suspicions. And then you start taking the second dose earlier to avoid the anxious period between doses, and pretty soon you are taking more per day than you are supposed to because you don't wait the full time period between each dose...
>
> > How distressful were the shakes? How much were you using at the time, and on what schedule?
>
> I am an excellent responder to Xanax. My "mild relaxation" dose is .25 mg Xanax, and my "get ready to stand up and talk" dose is .5 mg. I have never taken more than that. .5 really knocks me out. If I take it around noon, it works for anxiety for maybe three hours, wears off, and then I start to get real tired, so by the time I get home I collapse on the couch and sleep for three hours in the evening. I am taking about occasional use mind you, not the "rebound" jumpiness that occurs with regular use. I have never taken xanax often enough to get a rebound reaction/shakes when a dose wore off, except that one month when I was tapering onto the imipramine long ago. I did not develop tolerance to Xanax in that time but I was addicted. When a dose started to wear off I was reaching for that bottle pretty quick, and when I came off it at the end of that month, for withdrawal I had overwhelming anxiety, muscle rigidity (neck would turn in little jerks, like a Parkinson's patient) and so on. That was over a decade ago and it was under bad circumstances (I had to do all this while working in a fairly stressful environment in a new job, and hide everything I was going through) so I have blotted much of this memory out. Suffice to say I have never been tempted to abuse xanax in the decade since, despite always having a bottle of it within reach. I get nervous if I take two or three Xanax doses in the same week, even though I know ratonally I would have to take it for weeks to get addicted.
>
> > Perhaps it's because I'm already in a long-lasting, strong relationship,
>
> I am too.
>
> >but my biggest ongoing benefit from Klonopin has been been for my career. It's made a world of difference. I still don't like getting a sudden performance request thrown my way
>
> who does?
>
> >(and not just for reasons related to anxiety), but it's so refreshing not to suddenly panic. (On the other hand, I sometimes perversely enjoy watching myself calmly but firmly speak my mind during the confrontations that would freak me out in the past.
>
> Man that is my dream scenario. Right now my throat tightens up and I get the feeling that I will lose muscular control of my neck (shivering and shaking) if I do not break eye contact.
>
> > BTW, how are things going so far with the new meds? I know it may be a little early to talk about theraputic benefits, but is everything going OK side-effect-wise?
>
> Very well. The first few days on the Wellbutrin I felt very upbeat (probably a little mania, I got this when starting Serzone as well) and high/euphoric (I assume this is the dopamine effects of Wellbutrin kicking in). I felt like I had taken a happiness pill. I mean it felt great. Since upping the dose to 300 mg I feel more normal. I went sparingly on the Klonopin at first but now I am taking it several times a day to get used to it. It is very subtle, doesn't make me continuously yawn like the xanax would.
>
> The chemistry is complicated here. I am not sure if .5 mg per dose will be enough Klonopin; and if it isn't, I am not sure if that is because of the Wellbutrin; and if it is because of the Wellbutrin, I am not sure if that is because I have to get used to the Wellbutrin, or whether the Wellbutrin will always be activating and require more Klonopin even after the initial three weeks. In time I will get it sorted out. I suspect I may have to take more Klonopin for the first few weeks till the Wellbutrin settles down, and then cut back on the Klonopin. But that is assuming the Wellbutrin will settle down. It has not really made me anxious yet, except for occasional tightness in the chest which the Klonopin seems to relieve, but the effect of the Wellbutrin could well be simply negating some of the benefits of the Klonopin. I wonder if Wellbutrin becomes less activating after two or three weeks? I am definitely enjoying the reduced appetite (I am somewhat overweight) - wonder how long that will last!
>
>
> > Since I referred to "studies" several times,I feel compelled to include one small study abstract.
>
> Thanks for all the information. The data on Konopin sounds very positive. My question is this: what is your dosing regimen? Do you take it three times a day? It sounds like that would be, say, 7 AM, 3 PM, 11 PM. But what is the point of taking a social anxiety drug at 11 PM at night? Is it to avoid a withdrawal reaction, or is there some therapeutic benefit to maintaining steady-state of this stuff?
>
> Thanks again. So far I have been taking Klonopin once a day (first several days) and then twice a day (the last several days). Have not taken one late at night yet.
Posted by Joe Schmoe on April 28, 2004, at 16:23:18
In reply to Re: One more try - Klonopin and Wellbutrin » Joe Schmoe, posted by anodyne on April 28, 2004, at 12:45:47
> I know this is an old post, but I would love to hear how it was working out after 3+ years.This concerns social phobia.
Well, I tried a combination of Wellbutrin and Klonopin as well as some cognitive-behavioral therapy. The therapist was very poor and I got nothing from the CBT, maybe due to the therapist's incompetence, maybe because it has no effect in cases like mine. In any case I stopped it and continued on just the meds.
The Klonopin worked very well to reduce my anxiety, I have been on 2 mg/day for several years now, after 1.5 mg/day failed to provide enough relief. I take 1 mg in the morning and one in the evening. Lately my anxiety has been increasing, I suspect I have developed a tolerance to the Klonopin. My pdoc is incredulous that I can feel anxious on 2 mg of Klonopin a day, but I do.
Lately I have gotten prescriptions for 80 mg 1/day of Inderal LA to keep the physical anxiety symptoms under control on bad days, but my pdoc says I can develop a tolerance for it with a rebound effect (high blood pressure) if I stop using it, so I have been warned not to use it too often. I have never heard this about Inderal before - I have used it many times over the years like candy and no doctor ever said I could suffer a withdrawal if I discontinued it. Indeed I always considered it fairly harmless, but I am restricting my use of it to no more than once or twice a week.
When I went on Wellbutrin SR, 300 mg/day, my low-level constant depression began to lift, but I began experiencing pains in my chest and ribcage from muscle spasms. My pdoc then added Celexa 20 mg/day which had a rather miraculous effect of stopping these pains almost immediately. I stayed on the Celexa for quite some time but eventually (last fall) decided to go off it because I was getting depressed again and I was tired of the total lack of libido the Celexa had caused. I am single now and though lonely, felt no motivation to meet women, due to low sex drive. I tried Lexapro at one point with no difference from Celexa that I could tell.
I decided to go off the Celexa very slowly and even got the liquid form so as to taper off it gradually over a period of weeks. Despite this precaution the withdrawal was horrible and lasted about two months, with the same symptoms (brain shocks when you turn your head, etc.) people typically report from Paxil withdrawal. I missed a lot of work due to this. Finally it went away but my libido has not (seven months later) ever returned to my pre-medicine level.
I have been on and off the Wellbutrin a number of times, since it causes anxiety and does not seem to have withdrawal effects, so I tend to take it when I am depressed and stop it when I get too anxious. Due to my life circumstances I became extremely depressed recently and went back on it, and this time it seems to be helping without giving me the usual painful muscle spasms it did before, even though I am not taking Celexa anymore.
So here I am at 2 mg/day of Klonopin and 300 mg/day of Wellbutrin SR, and occasional 80 mg/day of Inderal LA. I definitely feel better at the moment than before I started any meds, but I do feel the Klonopin has lost much of its effectiveness. On the other hand I am not craving it or reaching to take extra pills so it is not like a Xanax addiction. I have been depressed and anxious lately but that is probably due more to my life circumstances (alone, no friends in this town, an uncertain career future) than to just my brain chemistry.
I suspect a higher dose of Klonopin might help with my anxiety, or perhaps going back on an SSRI, but both options seem to be temporary solutions with nasty withdrawal potential if and when I try to come off them/reduce the dosage. And I really dislike the SSRI sexual side effects. I think Celexa has permanently damaged my libido, which was always very strong before. I plan to continue with my current medicines while I try to improve my circumstances by moving to a new city and/or getting a new job. It may be that I would feel much less depressed and anxious if I simply had some job security and a girlfriend.
Posted by Rick on April 28, 2004, at 19:43:58
In reply to Re: One more try - Klonopin and Wellbutrin » anodyne, posted by Joe Schmoe on April 28, 2004, at 16:23:18
> Lately I have gotten prescriptions for 80 mg 1/day of Inderal LA to keep the physical anxiety symptoms under control on bad days, but my pdoc says I can develop a tolerance for it with a rebound effect (high blood pressure) if I stop using it, so I have been warned not to use it too often. I have never heard this about Inderal before - I have used it many times over the years like candy and no doctor ever said I could suffer a withdrawal if I discontinued it. Indeed I always considered it fairly harmless, but I am restricting my use of it to no more than once or twice a week.
This sounds pretty strange. As I'm sure you know, Inderal is a common cardiovascular drug, a beta blocker which is primarily used to treat high blood pressure and elevated heart rate. There *is* a warning that people who take beta blockers regularly shouldn't stop them abruptly for risk of a *sudden* (rather than gradual)jump in blood pressure or heart rate back to the pre-Inderal levels. That warning is more for people who have been taking them for cardiovascular treatment...but even if you wanted to err on the side of caution, it shouldn't require more than a few days to a week of tapering to very safely cease daily Inderal use. And there is certainly no "withdrawal" involved. BTW, there are some reports that beta blockers can reduce libido and/or sexual function in some people (though certainly not as much as an SSRI!), and possibly even predispose to depression. I wonder if you could possibly be seeing some of these effects?
Sorry to hear things aren't working out well for you. I haven't developed any tolerance to Klonopin at all for my severe social phobia (still at 1 mg/day for the last 4 years), but I guess everyone's different.
> I think Celexa has permanently damaged my libido, which was always very strong before.
I'd wager the libido will be back full force at some point, when you get your depression in check -- which *will* happen. Keep looking for a good pdoc!
Rick
Posted by Joe Schmoe on April 28, 2004, at 20:12:33
In reply to Re: One more try - Klonopin and Wellbutrin » Joe Schmoe, posted by Rick on April 28, 2004, at 19:43:58
> BTW, there are some reports that beta blockers can reduce libido and/or sexual function in some people (though certainly not as much as an SSRI!), and possibly even predispose to depression. I wonder if you could possibly be seeing some of these effects?
Nope. I have only taken Inderal a few times, and in the last month or two. The libido went away several years ago when I started Celexa and did not come back last September when I discontinued it. There is no way Inderal is to blame. The only med that could be is Klonopin since that has been the only constant. Before Klonopin I was on Serzone which did not affect my libido at all, it actually might have increased it.
> I'd wager the libido will be back full force at some point, when you get your depression in check -- which *will* happen.
Well, I never had libido problems during depression before taking meds. In fact, I believe there is a study showing people suffering from chronic depression tend to have much higher libidos than those of a cheerful disposition - I remember reading about a conference where a doctor described these cheerful, low-libido people as "making their own internal Prozac" - high serotonin levels were correlated with low libido levels. I found this very interesting. Certainly the large number of people who complain about sexual side effects of antidepressants would indicate that they had no libido problems while they were depressed, before they took antidepressants.
I'm not talking about the most severe cases here. I suffer from dysthymia I think, and have atypical depression (I never get insomnia or lose my appetite for instance). I have read that severe depression can depress libido, but I wonder if that is usually true for dysthymics. I doubt it.
> Keep looking for a good pdoc!
Not sure what one is. They are limited by the medicines available, and the current crop of meds all have their drawbacks. My pdoc is also not going to be able to solve my social and career problems for me. I have to move to a better place and get a more secure job for that.
This is the end of the thread.
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