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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by BobS, on March 1, 2004, at 18:16:14
After a year's worth of one major stressor after another, I have slipped into depression. I have been treated for about 12 years on and off for various anxiety disorders, and perhaps some "atypical depression" or other depression (mild to moderate). It depends on the pdoc.
As I begin this next phase of working on my problems, I thought I would read Solomon's Noonday Demon, which is highly regarded. I find the book incredibly frightening. I am about half way through and feel more hopeless than I could ever imagine.
Is this book accurate? Especially, in the areas of "incurable", must take multiple drugs for life, etc? I realize that some of us have it really bad, but is Solomon talking about the norm or what?
I need some support and measured opinions right now.
Regards,
BobS.
Posted by redmaryjane on March 1, 2004, at 20:00:12
In reply to Noonday Demon - Very grim, is it true??, posted by BobS, on March 1, 2004, at 18:16:14
I'm sorry to say this, but I feel like Solomon is right on. I loved that book and recommend it to everyone. I don't know if we are in for a life filled with meds, but we are in for a life of struggle. I know that is true as a middle aged woman and mother of two. That's life. But I wouldn't despair, there are much worse things to come your way. I think that it takes many years to realize depression. I didn't recognize it until well into my thirties, as a younger adult it was all seen as situational or as anxiety. Now that I am older things have surely changed. I think that Andrew Solomon is right on.
Posted by PsychoSage on March 1, 2004, at 20:49:29
In reply to Re: Noonday Demon - Very grim, is it true??, posted by redmaryjane on March 1, 2004, at 20:00:12
> I'm sorry to say this, but I feel like Solomon is right on. I loved that book and recommend it to everyone. I don't know if we are in for a life filled with meds, but we are in for a life of struggle. I know that is true as a middle aged woman and mother of two. That's life. But I wouldn't despair, there are much worse things to come your way. I think that it takes many years to realize depression. I didn't recognize it until well into my thirties, as a younger adult it was all seen as situational or as anxiety. Now that I am older things have surely changed. I think that Andrew Solomon is right on.
>I have read whatever they let you see on amazon.com in the preview, and I have come across Andrew Solomon in the New Yorker at the beginning of 1998 during my 2nd year at university. He wrote an article on depression, and I read it right after my first diagnosis at 19 and first trial on zoloft. He introduced me to Dr. Kay Jamison in this article and to the panoply of medications out there for anxious depressives. I will fondly remember this essay because it was the first of many bridges that would lead me to finding my own experience in the actual and personal experiences of others whether they are authors and writers or people I have met personally. For the first time I learned there were narratives to tell about this biochemical problem. Depression was more than something my doctor told me I had. It was more than a list of symptoms on pfizer's website or in a questionaire/the DSM given during intake.
I really enjoyed Dr. Jamison's _An Unquiet Mind_. Basically, she says she found life, hope and survival in lithium and doesn't wish to erase her manic depression. Much to my satisifaction she replied to a short note I sent her about enjoying her memoir and relating to some of her frustrations. It was terse, but she confirmed the receipt my note which simply expressed my gratitude and was written during a period of quasi-madness. To read and understand madness while experiencing madness is like being in the calm and peaceful eye of a hurricane before the rain and winds return.
Solomon is a writer who is more literary than journalist to me, so it is good to keep in mind that not every moment in his life is torture. The man graduated from Yale and has had a successful career amidst all of his troubles and episodes.
I came across Solomon in the afterword of a book called _Bertram Cope's Year_, and my professor [at an elite university of which Yale is not much better than] found him to be a rambling, incompetent critic. He made his assessment based on that afterword alone, but perhaps Solomon's style may not necessarily be conducive toward overcoming the false or poor beliefs about ourselves and our negative life conditions that we find to be pervasive and presume to be permenant.
Remember again that he has a good life also, so he is magnifying his illness. These authors can open your heart and hold a flashlight up to your pain through their own travails, but they have great careers and plenty of solid personal relationships that dance around their respective illnesses almost indifferently. Some are fortunate enough to have lives that can overshadow their disease. They would never even be able to write their books well and enjoy the praise they receive for simply doing so if the disease did not go into remission.
I personally wouldn't mind a long life where the ratio of good to bad is 1:1. That is better than many. I will tell you what has been told to me by those who have survived terrible episodes of illness: Keep on keeping on!
Posted by Viridis on March 2, 2004, at 1:13:49
In reply to Noonday Demon - Very grim, is it true??, posted by BobS, on March 1, 2004, at 18:16:14
Solomon's book is very good, but of course it emphasizes the "worst case" experiences for effect. Its greatest value is in demonstrating that clinical depression cuts across cultures, and is a real illness to be taken seriously.
Some people have single or rare episodes of major depression and are fine most of the time, or even recover completely. But many others do get worse without meds, and need to find the drugs that work for them to avoid repeats or amplification ("kindling") of the disorder. If that's the case, all the better that you recognize it early, understand what's going on, explore the options, and settle on some medication or combination that works. You're almost certain to find a solution, with enough perseverance.
What's so scary about this? If you discovered that you had a treatable condition like high blood pressure, and long-term use of medications could keep it under control, I doubt you'd agonize over the decision to take meds. Many people live long, productive lives with diabetes, cardiac problems, thyroid disorders etc. and simply accept that these are medical conditions that require long-term monitoring and treatment.
Why should mental illnesses be any different? Solomon's book emphasizes the ubiquity and reality of depression, and helps bring it into the mainstream. Attitudes are shifting, and now this is just another, genuine illness that some of us have to cope with. At least the tools are there to help, and the chances are excellent that you'll be able to take control of the situation, even if you may never be "cured".
Posted by cubbybear on March 3, 2004, at 3:00:48
In reply to Noonday Demon - Very grim, is it true??, posted by BobS, on March 1, 2004, at 18:16:14
I purchased this book during the depths of depression since it was recommended by some people who posted on Psychobabble. After reading a couple of chapters, i felt far worse, and had to stop reading it. Even though my depression is in remission, I doubt if I'll ever resume reading this book. It's much too black for me.
Posted by jay on March 3, 2004, at 4:57:49
In reply to Re: Noonday Demon - Very grim, is it true??, posted by PsychoSage on March 1, 2004, at 20:49:29
I just had to read William Styron’s “Darkness Visible”, as it seems like a mini-birth of what would then become Solomon’s “Noonday Demon”. One of the most important lessons I have learned, and hope the larger world does as well, is that we have to attack mental illness in no less of a way we do Cancer or other major illness. From medications, such as prescribing the maximum needed dose permanently (so often doctors still think with this “small dose equals better”), and using every medication (in a reasonable but assertive fashion) out there that is needed to provide long-term relief from this mental pain. Solomon does a great job of driving this point home, and the screaming against the “conservative” actions of doctors who prescribe *just* small doses, and such a small variety of medication. Imagine giving one aspirin to a person who just had their arm ripped off? We also need wayyyy more community supports, like lifetime supportive therapy if needed, not just some of these dingy semi-structured community “programs” run by people who have NO idea what the pain and suffering of mental illness is about. Also, if I go to the hospital at “wits end” mentally, I expect the same treatment as if I was having a heart attack, not just somebody with a slight sore throat who needs antibiotics or something minor. We need to stand up and demand these things, no exceptions, because there are people in power who just want to cut corners and see mental illness as simply a “weakness”.
/rant
Jay
Posted by sjb on March 3, 2004, at 8:35:15
In reply to Noonday Demon - Very grim, is it true??, posted by BobS, on March 1, 2004, at 18:16:14
Some of it was indeed very disturbing and my husband questioned why I would read during a particulary down period. Maybe he was right. I don't know. I did find the book one of the most well written and moving books on depression I have ever read and I've read a lot of them. It helped me feel not so alone. The chapter on his mother's death was very, very powerful. However, I did not finish it. It is a book that you can skip around, pick and choose the chapters. I went straight through and bogged down on the History chapter.
Keep in mind, what works for him, may not be what works for you. If he is convinced that he will be on meds for the rest of his life, that may well be, but it doesn't mean you will have to be.
We will probably get a redirect to the Book forum.
Posted by Viridis on March 4, 2004, at 3:12:42
In reply to Re: Noonday Demon - Very grim, is it true??, posted by sjb on March 3, 2004, at 8:35:15
I just don't see how Noonday Demon is a "depressing" book. Instead, it emphasizes how real depression is as a medical condition. And how treatable. I found it fascinating.
Given all the other illnesses that one could have, with no real treatment options, depression is a "lucky" one, in a weird way -- it's actually manageable!
I guess I'm an optimistic depressive, but I'm determined to break through this, and am making reasonable progress. I (like many others here) have had the most severe depression imaginable, yet I always convince myself that things can only get better. And they have (with the right meds, of course).
Solomon's book just helps to bring depression into the mainstream, and is one more step in making this a legitimate medical condition in the perception of the general public. I agree, though, that it may not be the best thing to read when you're depressed, unless you can see the silver lining.
What a weird thing depression is -- it distorts your thinking so much that everything seems negative and your life seems worthless. And yet, the vast majority can recover with the right treatment, a very encouraging prospect that needs to be brought to the forefront.
Posted by Flipsactown on March 4, 2004, at 11:46:25
In reply to Re: Noonday Demon - Very grim, is it true??, posted by jay on March 3, 2004, at 4:57:49
I agree with you about most doctors being too conservative when it comes to prescribing medication. I can understand their concerns because of lawsuits. In my case my pdoc would only prescribe 20mg over the max of prozac. I am currently prescribed 100mg. I researched the net and read where pdocs were prescribing 200mg or more in certain cases. On my own, I took 160mg and got excellent depression relief better than my currently prescribed combo of 100mg prozac, 90mg remeron, 400mg lamictal and 1200mg of lithium. If this present combo does not kick in soon, I will demand my pdoc prescribe 140mg of prozac or maybe try lexapro. Any thoughts or comments?
Flipsactown
> I just had to read William Styron’s “Darkness Visible”, as it seems like a mini-birth of what would then become Solomon’s “Noonday Demon”. One of the most important lessons I have learned, and hope the larger world does as well, is that we have to attack mental illness in no less of a way we do Cancer or other major illness. From medications, such as prescribing the maximum needed dose permanently (so often doctors still think with this “small dose equals better”), and using every medication (in a reasonable but assertive fashion) out there that is needed to provide long-term relief from this mental pain. Solomon does a great job of driving this point home, and the screaming against the “conservative” actions of doctors who prescribe *just* small doses, and such a small variety of medication. Imagine giving one aspirin to a person who just had their arm ripped off? We also need wayyyy more community supports, like lifetime supportive therapy if needed, not just some of these dingy semi-structured community “programs” run by people who have NO idea what the pain and suffering of mental illness is about. Also, if I go to the hospital at “wits end” mentally, I expect the same treatment as if I was having a heart attack, not just somebody with a slight sore throat who needs antibiotics or something minor. We need to stand up and demand these things, no exceptions, because there are people in power who just want to cut corners and see mental illness as simply a “weakness”.
>
> /rant
>
> Jay
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 4, 2004, at 16:53:14
In reply to Re: Noonday Demon - Very grim, is it true??, posted by sjb on March 3, 2004, at 8:35:15
> We will probably get a redirect to the Book forum.
Right, here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/books/20040211/msgs/320259.html
Thanks,
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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