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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by allye on February 6, 2004, at 10:51:57
Has anyone been prescribed xyrem for insomnia? I'm desperate. I have an appointment with a new psychiatrist next week. I'm 4 hrs away from my old MD. She has diagnosed me with add and a bipolar subtype but nothing has really helped. She's reluctant to give me Depakote due to wt gain. But I was up to 3am last night and ate a whole cheesecake so I can't think a med would do any worse.
Posted by Chairman_MAO on February 6, 2004, at 13:06:52
In reply to xyrem or depakote for insomnia?, posted by allye on February 6, 2004, at 10:51:57
You will not get Xyrem unless you have a virtual symposium of doctors work on your behalf to get it. Normal pharmacies cannot even dispense it, even though it's only a schedule III controlled substance. The inane war on the constitution, err, I mean war on drugs is in full-force, and the excellent drug GHB (or "sodium oxybate", haha) is one of its casulaties (let's just ignore the fact that you could buy it in GNC in the 80s).
There are many options besides GHB that could work for you. A sizeable dose of Seroquel should put you out. There's trazodone, Gabitril, and of course ambien, but I honestly think that's weak compared to some other options.
Then there's benzos (and barbiturates, but good luck getting Seconal, you have more of a chance getting GHB), but both build tolerance over time and are not good for sleep architecture. If you can get chloral hydrate, that could work wonders. High doses of Gabitril (or ambien or temazepam) and Seroquel together (assuming your bipolar disorder is somewhat medicated) should knock anyone out.
Good luck.
Posted by allye on February 6, 2004, at 17:18:04
In reply to Re: xyrem or depakote for insomnia?, posted by Chairman_MAO on February 6, 2004, at 13:06:52
If it were possible to get do you think Xyrem would help?
Posted by HappyGirl on February 7, 2004, at 0:13:13
In reply to xyrem or depakote for insomnia? Feedback please!, posted by allye on February 6, 2004, at 16:54:43
Hi:
Depakote is mood-stabilizer. Lithium you've been on already is also 'Mood-stabilizer.' I don't think you need *two* m.s. same time. Rather, Lamical might be a good choice, but skin-problem is one of very annoying problem, then before asking your pdoc., you need to think about a lot about this. Besides this, Lamictal has both mood-stabilizer and 'good' anti-dep. effect. I never been on, ... but seems very good med.
In regard to your current weight issue is, I suspect, two meds., Lithium and Zoloft. Those two gives you a good appetite, ... in my knowledge.
xyrem about which you're asking, ... I have NEVER heard of. But, since you're looking for sleeping med., then a tiniest dosage of 'Seroquel' might be a good choice, ... or 'Trazodone' that is milder form of AD, but work for insomnia, unless your insomnia is serious form.
Try to ask your pdoc. on this regard, because sleep-good is one very crucial recovery on any of M.I. you have.
H.G.
Posted by scott-d-o on February 7, 2004, at 2:16:29
In reply to Re: xyrem or depakote for insomnia? Feedback please!, posted by HappyGirl on February 7, 2004, at 0:13:13
> Hi:
> Depakote is mood-stabilizer. Lithium you've been on already is also 'Mood-stabilizer.' I don't think you need *two* m.s. same time. Rather, Lamical might be a good choice, but skin-problem is one of very annoying problem, then before asking your pdoc., you need to think about a lot about this. Besides this, Lamictal has both mood-stabilizer and 'good' anti-dep. effect. I never been on, ... but seems very good med.
> In regard to your current weight issue is, I suspect, two meds., Lithium and Zoloft. Those two gives you a good appetite, ... in my knowledge.
> xyrem about which you're asking, ... I have NEVER heard of. But, since you're looking for sleeping med., then a tiniest dosage of 'Seroquel' might be a good choice, ... or 'Trazodone' that is milder form of AD, but work for insomnia, unless your insomnia is serious form.
> Try to ask your pdoc. on this regard, because sleep-good is one very crucial recovery on any of M.I. you have.
> H.G.
i'm sure you've heard of xyrem, however you probably know it as GHB or the so-called "date-rape" drug. the fda approved it for treatment of narcolepsy in 2002..it's funny to observe the politics between the DEA and the FDA. On one hand, you have GHB classified as a schedule I substance, (high abuse potential, no medical value, like heroin, LSD, etc.), however, pharmaceutical ghb is now a schedule III substance (lower abuse potential, medical use accepted.) doesn't make much sense, does it? then again, neither do any of the drug laws in this country.
scott
Posted by Chairman_MAO on February 7, 2004, at 7:31:39
In reply to Re: xyrem or depakote for insomnia?, posted by allye on February 6, 2004, at 17:18:04
Without a doubt. GHB is arguably the best sleep drug in existence.
Posted by Chairman_MAO on February 7, 2004, at 10:37:49
In reply to Re: xyrem or depakote for insomnia? Feedback plea » HappyGirl, posted by scott-d-o on February 7, 2004, at 2:16:29
I'd like someone to produce to me one iota of evidence that GHB alone is implicated in *ANY* date rape.
Posted by HappyGirl on February 7, 2004, at 12:14:34
In reply to Re: xyrem or depakote for insomnia? Feedback plea » HappyGirl, posted by scott-d-o on February 7, 2004, at 2:16:29
Hi scott-d-o:
Thanks for a GOOD explanation on this regard. I heard that 'date Drug,' but the name for this, ... I didn't know. Because, practically I never interested in reading those articles.
In my VERY personal 'guess,' there is no or very few of pdocs. prescribes this med., because of the nature of drug. But, ... who knows, ... If nothing helping on insomnia, then probably as a last resort, there might rx as for 'SPECIAL' reason. But, ... again, as for my pdoc., I VERY MUCH doubt about this form of med., because he's pretty stern and conservative type of pdoc. whom you could meet at the very professional medical setting, as seeing many different diplomas on the wall behind the big-chair he's sitting.
Still, ... then in my opinion, there is very safe to ask 'Seroquel' or 'Trazodone.' Oh, ... in my case, Zyprexa 5mg. before going to the bed. is a tremendous effect on my sleep, ... actually so sound that I hardly waking up unless a big 'BANG' on the wall next room.
H.G.
Posted by scott-d-o on February 7, 2004, at 13:39:55
In reply to Re: date rape drug, posted by Chairman_MAO on February 7, 2004, at 10:37:49
> I'd like someone to produce to me one iota of evidence that GHB alone is implicated in *ANY* date rape.
not sure about that, but it is true that at higher doses it can easily put someone into a comatose state, meaning that they are sleeping and it is impossible to wake them up for about 4-5 hours. so I guess it's almost like necrophilia in a sense.. I've seen both alcohol and benzos do the same thing to people, but supposedly the difference in dosage between a euphoric high and comatose sleep is very small with GHB.
scott
Posted by Chairman_MAO on February 7, 2004, at 14:08:15
In reply to Re: date rape drug » Chairman_MAO, posted by scott-d-o on February 7, 2004, at 13:39:55
> not sure about that, but it is true that at higher doses it can easily put someone into a comatose state, meaning that they are sleeping and it is impossible to wake them up for about 4-5 hours. so I guess it's almost like necrophilia in a sense.. I've seen both alcohol and benzos do the same thing to people, but supposedly the difference in dosage between a euphoric high and comatose sleep is very small with GHB.
Exactly what I was thinking. Therefore, no single drug deserves the designation of "date rape drug". A few milligrams of alprazolam in a drink would have the same short-lived (and potentially fatal) incapacitating effect--with less chance of being detected by the victim than a few grams of salty-tasting GHB. Hell, clonazepam is MINTY. If a drug is to be designated "the date rape drug" based upon the number of unwilling participants in sexual acts it produces, there is only one choice: alcohol.
We should, as a society, stop worrying about the drugs and demonizing them for our ills and start asking the real questions, such as "HOW on EARTH could anyone ENJOY a sexual encounter with an unconscious person!??!?!?!?!"
The fact that raping someone carries less of an aggregate prison sentence than possession of GHB did when it was schedule I makes me want to renounce my citizenship.
Posted by Karen Moore on February 7, 2004, at 14:09:48
In reply to Re: xyrem or depakote for insomnia?, posted by Chairman_MAO on February 6, 2004, at 13:06:52
Chairman (and others, of course!):
Do have any good resources (online or in print) that explore how each of these various sleep drugs effect sleep architecture? Or ongoing systemic changes? For example: alcohol will obviously "put you out" at an appropriately high dose, but I understand it wreaks havoc with diurnal melatonin cycles (among other things). I've been on Seroquel for years, and though it clearly helps me sleep I'm suspicious that it may be changing the structure and patterns, and thus quality of my sleep.Any ideas/resources would be much appreciated!
KM> You will not get Xyrem unless you have a virtual symposium of doctors work on your behalf to get it. Normal pharmacies cannot even dispense it, even though it's only a schedule III controlled substance. The inane war on the constitution, err, I mean war on drugs is in full-force, and the excellent drug GHB (or "sodium oxybate", haha) is one of its casulaties (let's just ignore the fact that you could buy it in GNC in the 80s).
>
> There are many options besides GHB that could work for you. A sizeable dose of Seroquel should put you out. There's trazodone, Gabitril, and of course ambien, but I honestly think that's weak compared to some other options.
>
> Then there's benzos (and barbiturates, but good luck getting Seconal, you have more of a chance getting GHB), but both build tolerance over time and are not good for sleep architecture. If you can get chloral hydrate, that could work wonders. High doses of Gabitril (or ambien or temazepam) and Seroquel together (assuming your bipolar disorder is somewhat medicated) should knock anyone out.
>
> Good luck.
>
>
>
Posted by Karen Moore on February 7, 2004, at 14:36:38
In reply to Re: xyrem or depakote for insomnia? Feedback please!, posted by HappyGirl on February 7, 2004, at 0:13:13
> Depakote is mood-stabilizer. Lithium you've been on already is also 'Mood-stabilizer.' I don't think you need *two* m.s. same time.
> H.G.Actually, for a significant minority of rapid cycling treatment resistant bps, it may take as many as *three* mood-stabilizers. Unlike say the SSRI class, stabilizers are a very diverse class of drugs, most have totally different mechanisms of action. Therefore combining two or three can have synergistic effects. (Whereas combining two SSRI's rarely makes much sense/difference).
In the short term your insomnia may not improve on stabilizers. But in the long term, as your system comes back online, your sleep patterns will hopefully settle back to normal...
Posted by scott-d-o on February 8, 2004, at 20:22:41
In reply to Re: date rape drug » scott-d-o, posted by Chairman_MAO on February 7, 2004, at 14:08:15
agree totally.. look into getting yourself involved in the libertarian movement; www.lp.org. obviously, it will take time, maybe even decades, to change things in washington, but I feel that we, as citizens, have the responsibility to do something..
this upcoming presidential election is really depressing thou.. we really have no choice, since there will be really no difference between the candidates. wonder why the country is so politically ambivalent recently? I have always voted republican in the past just for economic reasons but you can't even count on that anymore. now I just want john ashcroft out of there at all costs.
if you are like me and want a fiscally conservative, socially liberal president, well, you're out of luck, at least for a long time.
Posted by allye on February 9, 2004, at 18:05:34
In reply to Re: xyrem or depakote for insomnia? » allye, posted by Chairman_MAO on February 7, 2004, at 7:31:39
> Without a doubt. GHB is arguably the best sleep drug in existence.
Thanks, Chairman_MAO. I'm assuming you've tried this?
My out-of-town psychiatrist is wonderful, knows I've never even smoked a cigarette in 37 years, never have had any substance abuse issue other than an ethanol-induced "C" in general chemistry my freshman year, so she may be willing to let me try this. Seriously, I've been prescribed opiods, barbituates by doctors through the years for the physical pain caused by lack of sleep, am - on the infrequent occasions I do take them- smart enough to know not to take them at bedtime due to sleep architecure issues, have never been addicted, but am having an online discussion about the difficulty of getting what from all accounts is a safe substance if used with a little common sense.
I would also be interested in comparison sleep architecture info if anyone is able to locate it.
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 9, 2004, at 21:56:17
In reply to Re: date rape drug » Chairman_MAO, posted by scott-d-o on February 8, 2004, at 20:22:41
> agree totally.. look into getting yourself involved in the libertarian movement...
I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding the libertarian movement to Psycho-Social-Babble. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20040209/msgs/311487.html
Thanks,
Bob
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