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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 10 to 34 of 95. Go back in thread:
Posted by jerrympls on November 29, 2003, at 21:03:07
In reply to Re: VERY GOOD WORK, TEP! NARDIL USERS READ!!!! » jerrympls, posted by ace on November 27, 2003, at 16:23:34
> > I take Nardil and I have not heard of this - what's the big difference in the new verses the old? Why would the NEW not work and the old version work?
>
> Because, Pfizer, being the smart ladies and gents they are, decided to screw with a perfectly good product- by changing the ingredients!
>
> Someone please explain......
> >
> > Jerry
>
> The new Nardil is working for you Jerry? You would be the first I've heard...
>
> Ace.I don't think I've noticed any difference. I did notice a difference in the look of the tablet but didn't think much of it. I think I feel the same?
Jerry
Posted by timidly on December 9, 2003, at 22:59:22
In reply to Re: New Version of Nardil is Working For Me » Questionmark, posted by Tepiaca on November 28, 2003, at 15:27:38
I am also having problems with the new nardil. I am unable to do anything because I can barely make it through each day. I would give anything to get some of the old Nardil. I am up to 120 mg per day and still not getting results like the old nardil My pdoc won't let me go any higher. Nothing else has worked for me. My pdoc says I need to prepare for permanent disability. Please help me.
> Hi question mark:
> About this sentence that you wrote
>
> "i guess my point to this is that it could be possible that these supposed differences in old and new Nardil are just psychological"
>
> That thougth also crossed my mind.
> So When I start taking the new Nardil I posted this:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030928/msgs/264371.html
>
> That was posted on September 29 .When I posted that I didnot know that some people were having problems with the new version .Nobody in the forum had already said that , at least I didnt read anything . That post was just something that I felt.
>
> I started to read some posts of similar problems 3 or 4 days ago . Inmediately that post came to my mind again . I thougth: "this is rare "
> "is this a coincidence?"
>
> Then I knew this couldnt be a coincidence , more people were having similar problems .
> I would like to wish that Im wrong , but I guess this post is showing another different thing =(
>
>
>
>
Posted by enola on December 9, 2003, at 23:32:32
In reply to Re: New Version of Nardil is Working For Me, posted by timidly on December 9, 2003, at 22:59:22
> I am also having problems with the new nardil. I am unable to do anything because I can barely make it through each day. I would give anything to get some of the old Nardil. I am up to 120 mg per day and still not getting results like the old nardil My pdoc won't let me go any higher. Nothing else has worked for me. My pdoc says I need to prepare for permanent disability. Please help me.
>
>
Hi...
I am so sorry to hear you are having such a rough time
on the new nardil, like many of us who were used to the old Nardil. The longer I take the new and discuss this situation with other people who are also having these problems, I am starting to understand more about it.
It seems that it's not that it just _doesn't work_, but that perhaps it enters and leaves the system too quickly, so that taking it as often as you used to take the old nardil may not be enough... you might try taking this raised dose at more frequent intervals than the old, and see if that makes any difference? That is one of my current theories, anyway. Please come hang out at :
http://anxietyhelp.org/treatment/medication/nardil.html
if you are not there already -- you will find a number of people in your situation who may be able to give you help, support, advice, or at least commiserate!
I also suggest as I mentioned in my previous post that you make a complaint to Pfizer, the FDA, and to your state's attorney general, if you haven't already .. the more of us who complain, the better!
I also am lucky enough to have family connections to some psychopharmacologists, one of which is apparently an MAOi expert. I have put out calls and emails to this guy and a few other psychopharms in the hope that we can get some help with this!
In the meantime, hang in there -- we WILL get through this! All of us! And please come read through the posts on the anxiety community -- knowing about others in my situation has helped me so much.
Take care!
Posted by enola on December 9, 2003, at 23:44:44
In reply to New Version of Nardil is Working For Me, posted by Questionmark on November 28, 2003, at 8:11:53
> It's kinda funny. Reading all these posts about how the new version/formulation of Nardil wasn't working as well as the old, i was so worried and scared that my next refill of Nardil would be subpar and give me withdrawal symptoms and what not. After reading the descriptions of the two versions, however, it turns out that i've been taking the new version all along (i know this because i did have a small amount of the old Nardil with an earlier prescription, so i know what the external differences are). i'm sorry, i guess this isn't funny at all for those of you who have been adversely affected by having to switch to the new Nardil. But..
> i guess my point to this is that it could be possible that these supposed differences in old and new Nardil are just psychological. Hopefully that's the case. Now that would really anger me if i heard someone say that and i was sure that i really was feeling a difference, so i'm sorry if that's the case. i meant no offense. Just wanted to point out that possibility. But man, if there really is that much difference in efficacy btwn old and new Nardil, i can't imagine how effective the old version would be. 60mg/day of the new version has still been virtually miraculous for me. Anyway, i'm thankful that, thus far, i don't have to worry about this crap. Good luck people.Hi--
At first I thought my trouble with the new nardil might be all in my head, but I must say that I was both disturbed and relieved to find that so many other people _found_ each other on the web because they were suddenly experiencing problems with the new Nardil...
However, all the complaints come from people who were fully adjusted to the 'old' formula, many of them having been on it for more than 10 years (like me). So I think we may have been mistaken in blurting out that the new formula 'doesn't work' (although it appears there _may_ be some subpotent batches out there). I think what it is that it is different enough from the old formula that everyone who has had to _switch_ is having BIG problems. But 15mg of Phenelzine is 15mg of Phenelzine, and Pfizer claims that the active ingredient is exactly the same in both the old and new formulas, so it makes sense that someone who has always been taking the new Nardil would be doing fine. There is just a big difference for people on the old med, something to do with some combination of the inactive ingredients, that is making it so that suddenly we all seem to be having trouble. That is my current theory of what's going on, anyway.
You are lucky you _started_ with the new Nardil, and didn't have to abruptly make a switch, is what I'm saying, I guess. ;)
Posted by Dave Hammond on December 10, 2003, at 18:48:17
In reply to New Version of Nardil is Working For Me, posted by Questionmark on November 28, 2003, at 8:11:53
" But man, if there really is that much difference in efficacy btwn old and new Nardil, i can't imagine how effective the old version would be. 60mg/day of the new version has still been virtually miraculous for me. Anyway, i'm thankful that, thus far, i don't have to worry about this crap. Good luck people."
You're very fortunate indeed. When I take 60Mg of this new formulation it completely shuts down my ability to urinate such that I have to be catheterized -- something I had to do to myself simply to void. Apparently you take no other psychotropic drugs, but I must take Amitriptyline which has anti-cholinergic properties. The fact that Pfizer had to make this change is very likely going to cost me my life, which I tend to take rather personally.
I've not yet decided upon a sensible course of action other than to try the only two other MAOIs, but this old phenelzine was fantastic and did not need to be changed. I suspect the FDA forced it however. I was rather fond of living
you see, and I had many other matters to attend to in life, but that's soon to be over thanks to Pfizer's FDA driven change in Nardil.
Posted by timidly on December 10, 2003, at 18:48:36
In reply to Re: New Version of Nardil is Working For Me, posted by enola on December 9, 2003, at 23:44:44
> Hi--
> At first I thought my trouble with the new nardil might be all in my head, but I must say that I was both disturbed and relieved to find that so many other people _found_ each other on the web because they were suddenly experiencing problems with the new Nardil...
> However, all the complaints come from people who were fully adjusted to the 'old' formula, many of them having been on it for more than 10 years (like me). So I think we may have been mistaken in blurting out that the new formula 'doesn't work' (although it appears there _may_ be some subpotent batches out there). I think what it is that it is different enough from the old formula that everyone who has had to _switch_ is having BIG problems. But 15mg of Phenelzine is 15mg of Phenelzine, and Pfizer claims that the active ingredient is exactly the same in both the old and new formulas, so it makes sense that someone who has always been taking the new Nardil would be doing fine. There is just a big difference for people on the old med, something to do with some combination of the inactive ingredients, that is making it so that suddenly we all seem to be having trouble. That is my current theory of what's going on, anyway.
> You are lucky you _started_ with the new Nardil, and didn't have to abruptly make a switch, is what I'm saying, I guess. ;)P.S. I have been taking Nardil for 26 years.
Posted by Dave Hammond on December 11, 2003, at 1:23:53
In reply to Re: New Version of Nardil is Working For Me, posted by timidly on December 9, 2003, at 22:59:22
"My pdoc won't let me go any higher. Nothing else has worked for me. My pdoc says I need to prepare for permanent disability. Please help me."
Timidly, I believe if order your Nardil from Link Pharmaceuticals in Australia, you will get the old formulation. I just e-mailed them tonight so I'm not absolutely positive about this statement, but I certainly am hoping.
Note: They have not yet finished their website yet, so they are up and coming. Give them a shot.
Posted by Enola on December 11, 2003, at 15:13:02
In reply to Re: New Version of Nardil is Working For Me, posted by Dave Hammond on December 11, 2003, at 1:23:53
> "My pdoc won't let me go any higher. Nothing else has worked for me. My pdoc says I need to prepare for permanent disability. Please help me."
>
> Timidly, I believe if order your Nardil from Link Pharmaceuticals in Australia, you will get the old formulation. I just e-mailed them tonight so I'm not absolutely positive about this statement, but I certainly am hoping.
>
> Note: They have not yet finished their website yet, so they are up and coming. Give them a shot.I hate to burst your bubble here, but I obtained a bottle of Link Pharmaceutical's Nardil from xxx, a pharmacy online. It is _not_ the same as our old formulation -- it is also not the quite the same as our new formulation -- it has some components of each, but is more like our new formulation. I took it for a few days instead of the 'new' Nardil, and the side effects were just as nasty as the 'new' Nardil. They seem to work very similarly. I was extremely disappointed.
Posted by Dave Hammond on December 11, 2003, at 15:23:30
In reply to Re: New Version of Nardil is Working For Me, posted by Enola on December 11, 2003, at 15:13:02
Enola, thanks for the information. I'm not going through xxx though. I'm just about to call Link in Australia myself and find out what they have for sale.
Like you, I'm not interested in Pfizer's new formulation because the side-effect from that drug combined with the anticholinergic properties of Amitriptyline, which I also must take cause complete urinary retention in me, which is intolerable. I had to self-catheterize myself just to get to the hospital where a more permanet catheter was installed until that new drug was out of my system. Ace says he got the old formulation at Link so I thought I'd give them a try.
Thank you, of course and if this turns out to be the case Timidly, then we are in serious trouble.
Posted by enola on December 11, 2003, at 16:20:58
In reply to Re: New Version of Nardil is Working For Me, posted by Dave Hammond on December 11, 2003, at 15:23:30
> Enola, thanks for the information. I'm not going through xxx though. I'm just about to call Link in Australia myself and find out what they have for sale.
>
> Like you, I'm not interested in Pfizer's new formulation because the side-effect from that drug combined with the anticholinergic properties of Amitriptyline, which I also must take cause complete urinary retention in me, which is intolerable. I had to self-catheterize myself just to get to the hospital where a more permanet catheter was installed until that new drug was out of my system. Ace says he got the old formulation at Link so I thought I'd give them a try.
>
> Thank you, of course and if this turns out to be the case Timidly, then we are in serious trouble.See, what I'm saying is, what I got through xxx _is_ Link's formula -- I don't believe there is any difference between what Link distributes in Europe and what they distribute in Australia -- that would be very strange. At first I thought this was possible, but here's what I believe was the cause for the mix-up: Link has not made a change to their Nardil formula because they've been making something that was different from ours _all along_. Ace has never seen what we describe as our 'old formula', being in Australia, but I am pretty positive that what I received from xxx is the same stuff that Ace has been taking all along. It just doesn't make sense any other way. However, if Link in Australia is somehow making something different from Link Europe, and it is identical to our good old Nardil, I am flying to Australia every six months, if that's what it takes, to get mine. I suppose its worth looking into, Dave, considering the stakes. I would just be really surprised.
BTW, this is your pal Tammy from anxietyhelp.org, in case you didn't know that ;)
Posted by Dave Hammond on December 11, 2003, at 16:40:09
In reply to Re: New Version of Nardil is Working For Me, posted by enola on December 11, 2003, at 16:20:58
"Link has not made a change to their Nardil formula because they've been making something that was different from ours _all along_. Ace has never seen what we describe as our 'old formula', being in Australia, but I am pretty positive that what I received from xxx is the same stuff that Ace has been taking all along."
I see, so unless there's a miracle, Link is simply selling their formulation of Nardil which is not Pfizer's "old" formulation that I've been taking for some 26 years. Well, my call did not go through, but that was my fault. I just got the prefixes and time differences in Australia figured out. It's now about 7:35 AM in Australia,
which is a bit too early to ring them. Still, I'm going to do it -- just in case.I'm not even interested in trying the other two MAOIs, although that's why my Psychiatrist recommends. I mean what else is he going to do? Thanks for the info, Tammy. Good to see that you're still alive and kicking. If I find out that I can get the "old" Pfizer-Parke Davis Nardil from Australia I'll be certain to tell you.
Yes, the stakes are extremely high for every single one of us, except those whose systems adjust to the increased dosages the "new" Nardil requires one to take for them to be as therapeutic as the "old" Nardil.
All of this just to increase the shelf-life and dissolution rate. You bet I'd like to crown someone at Pfizer. They could at least have told us they were changing. I've not averse to freezing medications and I'd even try to freeze dry them if necessary.
Dave
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 11, 2003, at 18:38:39
In reply to Re: New Version of Nardil is Working For Me, posted by Enola on December 11, 2003, at 15:13:02
> I obtained a bottle of Link Pharmaceutical's Nardil from xxx, a pharmacy online.
Please don't use this site to exchange information that could be used to import into the US prescription medication without a prescription:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#illegal
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by enola on December 11, 2003, at 19:41:18
In reply to Re: medication without a prescription » Enola, posted by Dr. Bob on December 11, 2003, at 18:38:39
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 12, 2003, at 18:08:38
In reply to Oops! I apologize... didn't realize.... (nm), posted by enola on December 11, 2003, at 19:41:18
Posted by ace on December 15, 2003, at 5:27:17
In reply to Re: New Version of Nardil is Working For Me, posted by Enola on December 11, 2003, at 15:13:02
The Nardil from Australia is 100% Nardil. After speaking to the head director at the Link company he assured me that the Nardil is EXACTLY the same version of the one released way back in the 1950's. Hansam actually bought the rights to Nardil of Pfizer two or so years ago. Then Link, a few months ago, got the rights- it's exactly the same as Hansams version. Hansam and Link spent an extreme amount of time to get it right. It has a couple of inactive ingredients which means Nardil has to be refrigerated.
I have felt the euphoria from this Nardil- it is great.
So Australia's version is exactly the same as the 1950's first version and the Pfizer version.
It is the same as when this great med was first made- except for a couple of Inactive ingridients which have NO effect on the drugs efficacy.
Posted by Dave Hammond on December 15, 2003, at 8:13:58
In reply to Re: Nardil from Australia = 1950's version., posted by ace on December 15, 2003, at 5:27:17
"So Australia's version is exactly the same as the 1950's first version and the Pfizer version.
It is the same as when this great med was first made- except for a couple of Inactive ingridients which have NO effect on the drugs efficacy."The problem I've found is that they will not import their Nardil to America.
Posted by luther on December 15, 2003, at 12:08:49
In reply to Re: Nardil from Australia = 1950's version., posted by Dave Hammond on December 15, 2003, at 8:13:58
I would be very nice to actually find the old stuff. I have tried everything with the exception of a class action law suit against Pfizer. That is my next recourse by the way. You can not change the formula of a medication and not notify you, your doctor and the pharmacist. When I made my complaint loud and clear to Pfizer I received a full refund for my Nardil prescription and didn't even ask for it! Sounds to me like they may be fearful of something, $$$ legal action. Is anyone with me? Something should and needs to be done! I'm very happy for the people in which the new Nardil works for them, I just happen not to be one of them. Unfortionatly nothing else will work for my Atypical Depression and SAD. Will I let them take away my life in the name of profits, no way! If Pfizer wants a fight they are about to get one. Like others here I thought it was possible I received a bad batch of the stuff. I tried it again just recently and got the same results, no effect, might as well been taking a placebo. For now I'm taking Parnate which is a little better than nothing at all, but not much. If anyone would like to contact me, my e-mail is: luthermeeks@peoplepc.com
Posted by Jonathan on December 15, 2003, at 14:28:51
In reply to Re: Nardil from Australia = 1950's version., posted by ace on December 15, 2003, at 5:27:17
but getting it is like getting the Rugby World Cup out of Australia.
Posted by enola on December 15, 2003, at 16:28:38
In reply to Re: Nardil from Australia = 1950's version., posted by ace on December 15, 2003, at 5:27:17
Okay, Ace, I know you say this Nardil is the same, but I have reason to believe it isn't.
We may be able to answer this question definitively -- are your Nardil film-coated, or sugar-coated, like little m&m's? Our old Nardil is sugar-coated. The stuff I've seen from Europe is film-coated. You mention that the difference is a few minor inactive ingredients.. but that is the supposed difference between our old and new Nardil here, and a change in a few inactive ingredients has been what has apparently thrown our lives into turmoil over here in the US.
However, if what you have is our good old candy-coated stuff, I might have to move to AUS!
Posted by Dave Hammond on December 15, 2003, at 18:29:11
In reply to UK Nardil is also Hansam's (old formulation), posted by Jonathan on December 15, 2003, at 14:28:51
"but getting it is like getting the Rugby World Cup out of Australia."
Besides the fact that it's not shipped into America, why is is so hard to come by?
Posted by maryhelen on December 16, 2003, at 8:23:25
In reply to Re: Nardil from Australia = 1950's version., posted by luther on December 15, 2003, at 12:11:12
Luther:
I have been taking Nardil since November 3rd, unaware of the controversay surrounding it. I now undersand that I am taking the old Nardil. I live in Canada. I have been getting information and help from the members at hhtp://anxietyhelp.org/treatment/medication/nardil.html They have does extensive research into the old and new Nardil and after giving them the information, which is on my bottle, determined that it is the old Nardil.
I hope this is helpful.
maryhelen
Posted by strat on January 6, 2004, at 9:25:33
In reply to Old Nardil ..... luther, posted by maryhelen on December 16, 2003, at 8:23:25
Am I ever glad I found you folks. Just went through an horrific anxiety attack in mid-December after 20 days on the new formula. I also don't want to go through the horror of finding a new anti-depressant!!!
As to the actual compression/coating of the 'new' pill - anyone else experience the taste of this 'new' formulation? I usually pop my meds in my mouth in the morning then go off in search of water.
Yecch - this new one dissolves immediately and has a taste I can only describe as 'skunk-like'.
Are there any other boards that folks have found to post on, as well as this one?
I find when upping the dosage I feel more giddy than un-depressed. (upped from 2 to 3-15mg per day).
I've both called Pfizer and contacted the FDA and filled out the FDA's Medwatch form online. Pfizer told me same - that they'd changed the 'inactive ingredients' to prolong shelf-life.
Also, I've read the 'permission granted' on the FDA site - apparently there were no control tests on this 'new' medication - they simply removed the word 'corn starch' from the labeling and added a few blurbs. Seems to me they were somehow misrepresenting the actual changes.
MEDWATCH FORM:
Here are all the phone numbers I have
PFIZER
1-212-573-2323
1-800-332-1240
PFIZER/PARKE-DAVIS
1-800-223-0432
973-385-2000I got MORE info from them HERE than at the above phone number:
1-800-438-1985
Hope this helps. PLEASE call these folks and report. I heard from Pfizer that a physician had also called to inquire about a patient that had a similar experience.
Posted by Dave Hammond on January 6, 2004, at 12:22:58
In reply to Pfizer/FDA contact info - NARDIL NOT WORKING!, posted by strat on January 6, 2004, at 9:25:33
"Am I ever glad I found you folks. Just went through an horrific anxiety attack in mid-December after 20 days on the new formula. I also don't want to go through the horror of finding a new anti-depressant!!!"
You might not have to. Have you increased your dosage, yet and are you taking anything else in conjunction with the "new" Nardil?
"As to the actual compression/coating of the 'new' pill - anyone else experience the taste of this 'new' formulation? I usually pop my meds in my mouth in the morning then go off in search of water."
I never wait that long. I always have something to drink to down my meds. I take one that would dissolve too quickly, and so I cannot risk it.
"Yecch - this new one dissolves immediately and has a taste I can only describe as 'skunk-like'."
Do not allow it to dissolve in your mouth. This one is no longer coated as I'm certain you've noticed.
"Are there any other boards that folks have found to post on, as well as this one?"
Yes, there's an Anxiety board and a couple of other less helpful ones that I've found.
"I find when upping the dosage I feel more giddy than un-depressed. (upped from 2 to 3-15mg per day)."
You are going to go through some changes here with side-effects that could last as long a 4 months. If this "newer' formulation helps you, then by all means stick with it. Otherwise, well, I suppose you already know what your options are or you soon will.
"I've both called Pfizer and contacted the FDA and filled out the FDA's Medwatch form online. Pfizer told me same - that they'd changed the 'inactive ingredients' to prolong shelf-life."
Okay, the inactive ingredients (expients) actually determine how your body metabolizes this medication. So when they change that, they are changing everything.
"Also, I've read the 'permission granted' on the FDA site - apparently there were no control tests on this 'new' medication - they simply removed the word 'corn starch' from the labeling and added a few blurbs. Seems to me they were somehow misrepresenting the actual changes."
There are six changes in expients between what Pfizer used to make and what it makes today. That's why it's metabolized differently than the "old" Nardil was.
Posted by maryhelen on January 6, 2004, at 20:33:09
In reply to Pfizer/FDA contact info - NARDIL NOT WORKING!, posted by strat on January 6, 2004, at 9:25:33
Hi Strat:
The email address for the anxiety board is in my post. This is an excellent site to go back and follow the discovery (by patients of course, not doctors or pharmacists) of the changes made to Nardil. I don't know if I am coming or going. My pharmacist is going to get the Pfizer rep to come in.
I just started taking the old Nardil on November 3rd
Posted by strat on January 7, 2004, at 6:15:57
In reply to strat .........e-mail address for anxiety board, posted by maryhelen on January 6, 2004, at 20:33:09
Thanks, MaryHelen, for another good idea. I've used the same pharmacist for years; I'll ask him to do same. I found the anxiety board; have already posted there!
Pierre, thanks for the nod of approval! I appreciate having the support here!
Strat
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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