![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Adam Donahue on November 10, 2003, at 18:22:38
For the past year and a half or so, I've been engaged in a dangerous cycle of binge drinking/abstinence from alcohol. Within the past month, I've been binge drinking twice, passed out twice (both times with .25 BAL), and been admitted to the hospital. I've probably blacked out two or three dozen times in all. Until the most recent time, the pattern has been such: feel great, feel reeeallly great, go drink to excess, black out and/or pass out, enter depression for one or more weeks, freak out that I will always be depressed, feel intellectually and cognitively numbed, worry that I have brain damage -- start to feel better, stop worrying, ... feel intellectually alert and sharp again .... feel great, feel reeeaallly great ... (I'm sure many of you know this cycle.)
I'm currently on 40 mg Celexa, for three years (which has worked wonders), and have recently been diagnosed with bipolar, which may be contributing to my 'need' to go drink, even though when it happens I inevitably drink to excess.
Aside from the obvious alcohol problem -- which I'm just now realizing is a problem and trying to get under control -- I am worried about having permanently damaged my brain from these binge drinking episodes. Is there any literature on whether this type of behavior causes long-lasting, permanent damage. I mean, Friday I felt great -- drank too much, and now I'm paranoid again. Is is possible to go from one extreme to another over one bout of binge drinking, or is this numbness simply the depression again? If I were never to drink again (a tough but necessary goal), will I be a become a vegetable from any damage already done? Can you tell I'm freaking out from this!?
... curious about the long-term effects of what I might have done, and if any of it is reversible.
Adam
Posted by tensor on November 10, 2003, at 19:26:49
In reply to Binge drinking: brain damage?, posted by Adam Donahue on November 10, 2003, at 18:22:38
Hi,
interresting question, i have thought about it too. But on the other hand, i come from Finland and virtually no one here drinks(preferably vodka) until he passed out which sometimes can take longer than 12hrs. I know Finland is one of the top alco(stronger>35%) consumers and I don't think people here are more frequently depressed.
I drink maybe 1-4 times a month and that is always binge drinking. But can i draw parallels between my depression and drinking? Actually i don't know, i remember having symptoms of panic and depression as a child, although i never got any treatment for (didn't tell anyone either)it. One thing is true though, I am more depressed after drinking alcohol, however, but im not sure wheather there is damage done and if so, does the brain somehow repair it.One thing is for sure, it has to be more moderate drinking for me.
NOT one for the road..
/tensor
Posted by stjames on November 10, 2003, at 22:51:02
In reply to Binge drinking: brain damage?, posted by Adam Donahue on November 10, 2003, at 18:22:38
You can't change the past but you can improve
the future by cleaning up now.
Posted by panic_attack on November 11, 2003, at 9:20:42
In reply to Re: Binge drinking: brain damage?, posted by stjames on November 10, 2003, at 22:51:02
Adam.. Wow, your story is pretty similar to mine. I have been on medication for a few years now, but I have also been drinking for years! Lately, the alcohol has been effecting me in a relly bad way!!! I black out and get very, very ill. I cannot get out of bed for 2 days and get really depressed. I freak out... panic... shake... and just total misery. 2 days later... I feel a little better and a week later... I feel great and back to myself... but then I go out again and start the pattern all over again.
Friday.. I did some binge drinking and thought I was going to die until now. I finally feel better... my neighbor is a therapist and he thinks that I am Bi-Polar!! I have never been doagnosed bi-polar.. only with Panic/Anxiety disorder. Maybe I am bipolar and thats why I drink like a freaking fish. I live in South Beach and theres nothing else to do but drink and party. Well after Friday nights blackout... I have decided that its time I make a change. I am going to *try* to quit drinking AGAIN ( 10th time) . I am tired of feeling like I am going to die.
All I can say to you is *TRY* to quit drinking. It's not too late... Good luck to you.
Posted by Adam Donahue on November 11, 2003, at 10:53:43
In reply to Re: Binge drinking: brain damage?, posted by panic_attack on November 11, 2003, at 9:20:42
That's exactly how I feel right now -- like I will be a zombie the rest of my life. I'm seriously panicking. I feel worse today than yesterday -- so hopeless. I feel unable to concentrate and focus on tasks -- everything seems overwhelming. This is the worst.
Adam
Posted by panic_attack on November 11, 2003, at 14:21:38
In reply to Re: Binge drinking: brain damage? » panic_attack, posted by Adam Donahue on November 11, 2003, at 10:53:43
I know.. its such a horrible feeling. The ONLY thing that makes me feel better is sleep. No pills take it away... only sleep. I do have to take pills just to fall asleep though. All the drinking I have done scares me that I have done brain damage too. I drink so much that I do not remember anything that happened the night before. Like a week later I start to have flashbacks of shit that happenened. I had an EEG done on my brain, and guess what. EVERYTHING was normal. All I can tell you is try to sleep this horrible feeling off. Drink some chamomile tea or Linden tea. Take a hot bath... SLEEP.
Posted by Adam Donahue on November 11, 2003, at 15:54:37
In reply to Re: Binge drinking: brain damage?, posted by panic_attack on November 11, 2003, at 14:21:38
I'll try not to worry about it for the next week. Last time I drank on a Tuesday and was very depressed until the next Thursday, when I woke up feeling still depressed, but as I drove to work, I thought, hey I'm actually enjoying my music, thinking productively, ... that night I even went to the gym. So in theory I will be depressed until this weekend, at least if the pattern holds. What I don't understand is WHY do I get this deep depression from overdoing alcohol? What triggers it? Sometimes I can drink -- not to excess, but get drunk -- and it doesn't make me so depressed. But when I drink so much I black out and/or pass out, can't remember the night, I get /extremely/ depressed, worried, feel zombified for a week or more afterward.
Just praying I'll make it through this period -- and then I'll do what I can to never drink again. (Going to start AA meetings, and the lithium.)
The other irony is no matter how bad I seem to feel NOW, I can tell you if I do nothing about it I'll be RIGHT BACK WHERE I STARTED in a month. It's like going to hell -- no joke -- and then forgetting the experience completely within a couple of weeks ... and doing the same, exact thing that made you suffer so much the last time!
Adam
Posted by Ilene on November 11, 2003, at 18:11:04
In reply to Binge drinking: brain damage?, posted by Adam Donahue on November 10, 2003, at 18:22:38
> I'm currently on 40 mg Celexa, for three years (which has worked wonders), and have recently been diagnosed with bipolar, which may be contributing to my 'need' to go drink, even though when it happens I inevitably drink to excess.
>
> Aside from the obvious alcohol problem -- which I'm just now realizing is a problem and trying to get under control -- I am worried about having permanently damaged my brain from these binge drinking episodes. Is there any literature on whether this type of behavior causes long-lasting, permanent damage. I mean, Friday I felt great -- drank too much, and now I'm paranoid again. Is is possible to go from one extreme to another over one bout of binge drinking, or is this numbness simply the depression again? If I were never to drink again (a tough but necessary goal), will I be a become a vegetable from any damage already done? Can you tell I'm freaking out from this!?
>
> ... curious about the long-term effects of what I might have done, and if any of it is reversible.
>
> Adam
Yes. Alcohol can cause brain damage, but your symptoms may be from untreated bipolar disorder (which can also alter brain anatomy). Substance abuse and mood disorders go hand in hand.I don't know how long it takes to kill enough brain cells to affect you, but it's probably quite a bit over many years. You are obviously not a vegetable. The fact that you are worrying about it, instead of heading to the liquor store, means that there's a brain left to worry with.
Your brain can heal itself, but the damage can appear to be worse at first:
"Cognitive impairment is usually most severe during the first weeks of abstinence, perhaps making it difficult for some alcoholics to benefit from educational and skill-development sessions, which are important components of many treatment programs (22,23). For example, one study found that alcoholics tested soon after entering treatment were unable to recall treatment-related information presented in a film they had just been shown (4). As time goes by and cognitive function improves, however, patients may make better use of information presented to them in individual and group therapy, educational programs, and 12-step programs."
From "Alcoholism" on About.com
http://alcoholism.about.com/library/blnaa53.htmThere's evidence anti-oxidants can reverse damage caused by alcohol, also.
I feel brain-damaged even though I hardly drink. I don't know if it's from life-long depression or 15 years of psychotropic drugs.
I suspect that alchohol is a very "dirty" AD for many people (not me). It makes you feel better, so you drink more, but then you get a rebound effect that was worse than the initial depression, because it's depleted whatever neurotransmitter(s) were already in short supply. Or something like that.
Ilene
Posted by Adam Donahue on November 11, 2003, at 18:57:07
In reply to Re: Binge drinking: brain damage? » Adam Donahue, posted by Ilene on November 11, 2003, at 18:11:04
Interesting thoughts, Irene. Believe me, I've done all the research on About.com, et.al. That's part of the depression -- obsessing over how I feel, reading about it until I start reading the same online documents over and over. It's a hell of an interesting way to pick up new knowledge! (Ah, my sense of humor, at least, is returning.)
This afternoon has been weird. I've been flopping between dread, and calmness, with a fogginess through my thoughts. I'm definitely not at 100% -- I'm thinking about the fact that I'm depressed, which tells me enough right there. But I do feel a little calmer.
I am beginning to wonder if it's the 80 mg of Celexa that contributes to this overall numbness. I typically bumb up right after a drinking binge -- and maybe it's the damn Celexa causing half the problem. I've been on 40 mg for three-plus years with no side effects (save light sexual side effects), and it's worked miracles. But maybe 80 mg -- even for one or two days -- dips me into a different mindstate?
Adam
Posted by panic_attack on November 11, 2003, at 19:24:23
In reply to Re: Binge drinking: brain damage? » Adam Donahue, posted by Ilene on November 11, 2003, at 18:11:04
Adam.. She is right. I think it is the Bi Polar that gives us this really horrible feeling for many days after drinking. I know what you mean... you go thru this hell of pain and suffering and 2 weeks later.. you forget about the pain and do it alllll over again. get sick all over again... the depression gets worse and worse and its not going to get better. I think its time that we just give it up. It's so hard for me... I think I am an alcoholic and I have tried to quit before and always end up drinking again within a few weeks :( If you do continue to drink, just remember not to drink that much... keep in mind what happens afterwards. Remind yourself.... ONLY 3 DRINKS or whatever. I see all my friends drinking and drinking and drinking... and wake up fine the next day. They have no complaints... it sucks. It sucks that I wake up and feel like I am going to die when they drank just as much as me and are fine. If the alcohol is affecting us this way... something is wrong. Try to quit drinking.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 12, 2003, at 6:29:35
In reply to Re: Binge drinking: brain damage? » panic_attack, posted by Adam Donahue on November 11, 2003, at 15:54:37
> I'll try not to worry about it for the next week. Last time I drank on a Tuesday and was very depressed until the next Thursday, when I woke up feeling still depressed, but as I drove to work, I thought, hey I'm actually enjoying my music, thinking productively, ... that night I even went to the gym. So in theory I will be depressed until this weekend, at least if the pattern holds. What I don't understand is WHY do I get this deep depression from overdoing alcohol? What triggers it? Sometimes I can drink -- not to excess, but get drunk -- and it doesn't make me so depressed. But when I drink so much I black out and/or pass out, can't remember the night, I get /extremely/ depressed, worried, feel zombified for a week or more afterward.
I hope you don't mind me steppin in here.
Alcohol abuse trashes your vitamin and mineral supplies/reserves. Chronic alcohol abuse is the number one cause of malnutrition. Period.
You can't restore your health just by taking vitamins, and I'm not advocating them so you can drink more without suffering as much....
However...
B-vitamins: B-complex, at least 100 mg/day.
zinc: 40 mg/day
selenium: 200 mcg/day
magnesium: 300 mg/day> Just praying I'll make it through this period -- and then I'll do what I can to never drink again. (Going to start AA meetings, and the lithium.)
I strongly recommend AA. Whatever it takes.
Also, you need to start paying attention to why you drink. The real why. If you're going to have lasting success with alcohol abstinence, you are going to have to figure out what alcohol does for you, what benefit it brings, and then find alternative strategies that meet your needs/fulfil alcohol's role in your life.
> The other irony is no matter how bad I seem to feel NOW, I can tell you if I do nothing about it I'll be RIGHT BACK WHERE I STARTED in a month. It's like going to hell -- no joke -- and then forgetting the experience completely within a couple of weeks ... and doing the same, exact thing that made you suffer so much the last time!
>
> AdamAA can help you with strategies for that, too. It's one of the slogans.....Remember When.
Alcohol wants you to play the first part of the memory tape, the part where the fun is. It wants you to forget to play the tape to the end, the part where you wake up and don't know where you are, how you got there, whose blood is on your shirt, etc. etc. Play the tape to the end, and Remember When.
Lar
Posted by Adam Donahue on November 12, 2003, at 8:53:35
In reply to Re: Binge drinking: brain damage? » Adam Donahue, posted by Larry Hoover on November 12, 2003, at 6:29:35
Thanks for the words. I agree with you about AA.
I've probably been drinking about two dozen times this year -- my vitamin absorption levels are probably OK (I rarely drink more than, say, twice in a monthly span -- I just waaaayyy overdo it when I do).
Still depressed today. I decided to drop by Celexa back to 40 mg, which I know works, and see if this helps. Otherwise it's a waiting game.
Adam
Posted by Ilene on November 13, 2003, at 17:15:46
In reply to Re: Binge drinking: brain damage? » Ilene, posted by Adam Donahue on November 11, 2003, at 18:57:07
> This afternoon has been weird. I've been flopping between dread, and calmness, with a fogginess through my thoughts. I'm definitely not at 100% -- I'm thinking about the fact that I'm depressed, which tells me enough right there. But I do feel a little calmer.
>
> I am beginning to wonder if it's the 80 mg of Celexa that contributes to this overall numbness. I typically bumb up right after a drinking binge -- and maybe it's the damn Celexa causing half the problem. I've been on 40 mg for three-plus years with no side effects (save light sexual side effects), and it's worked miracles. But maybe 80 mg -- even for one or two days -- dips me into a different mindstate?
>
> AdamI get fogged out from depression and cfs/fibro, not from ADs. I know some people complain of feeling numb from them, but that's not happened to me.
Dread is bad. Ever tried Klonopin? I find it takes the edge off anxiety.
Ilene
Posted by Adam Donahue on November 14, 2003, at 12:16:33
In reply to Re: Binge drinking: brain damage? » Adam Donahue, posted by Ilene on November 13, 2003, at 17:15:46
Friday, and I'm still unable to focus or concentrate. I've stayed home from work. Is this typical of binge drinking withdrawal? I'm starting to get scared that I did something to screw up my brain.... :(
Posted by Ilene on November 14, 2003, at 15:34:25
In reply to Re: Binge drinking: brain damage?, posted by Adam Donahue on November 14, 2003, at 12:16:33
> Friday, and I'm still unable to focus or concentrate. I've stayed home from work. Is this typical of binge drinking withdrawal? I'm starting to get scared that I did something to screw up my brain.... :(
It's typical of depression. I don't know if it's typical of alcohol withdrawal.
Ilene
Posted by panic_attack on November 15, 2003, at 9:52:49
In reply to Re: Binge drinking: brain damage? » Adam Donahue, posted by Ilene on November 14, 2003, at 15:34:25
My depression AFTER drinking usually only lasts 2-3 days but everyone is different. I dont know if you have insurance but to put your mind at ease... I would request an EEG. I went to a nuerologist and got one done. I was having this horrible twitch in my hand and wanted to know if all the drinking and drug use did some nuerological damage. Everything came out O.K. and referred me back to a psychiatrist LOL. So in my case, the alcohol is the cause for everything... my depression... my panic/anxiety... i feel like DYING after drinking. Anyways... get an EEG done!
Posted by G-Man885858 on May 28, 2008, at 21:18:53
In reply to Binge drinking: brain damage?, posted by Adam Donahue on November 10, 2003, at 18:22:38
Hey Adam,
I have also went through a bout of heavy drinking that lasted about less than 2 years. However, I was medicated on Lexapro and Celexa(both SSRI antidepressants) at the same time of the drinking. In October 2005, I finally got off of all the antidepressants, and I went through the grueling SSRI withdrawal. As of today, I haven't been drinking for 4 years. However, I feel like I may have sustained some Brain damage from combining the alcohol with the meds. For 7 months now, I am unable to sleep for more than 3 hours a night. My body seems to reject and not metabolise any sleeping pill (and every other drug) that I try. That means that any drug that I put in my mouth doesn't work at all!!I just felt that I should share my experience because I am desperately looking for some help and understanding. No doctor can find anything wrong with me, even an MRI shows nothing wrong!!
So however insignificant your experience might be, could be of the utmost value to me!!! Thanks!!!
Posted by blueboy on May 29, 2008, at 7:16:20
In reply to Binge drinking: brain damage?, posted by Adam Donahue on November 10, 2003, at 18:22:38
I haven't read any of the other responses, so sorry if I repeat anyone. I'm a recovering alcoholic/bipolar II sufferer.
AFAIK, it's really unlikely that you suffered any noticeable brain damage from the amount of drinking you described. And yes, alcoholism is very typical of Bipolar.
Screw around long enough with the alcohol, though, and you'll mess up your brain ("wet brain"), your liver, your life, and a lot of other people's lives. Some people need to ruin themselves, go to prison, and/or kill someone before they get the picture. Some never manage to face the obvious before they bleed out through their throat. Here's a nice synopsis of where you're headed:
http://www.egetgoing.com/Drug/5_9_2_1_2.asp
If you're an alcoholic, you are not going to beat it by sitting around making resolutions, writing out lists, reading about it, talking to a shrink, drawing up plans to control your drinking. You can't control it or defeat it by yourself. Period. It's a fatal disease and the death is ugly. How well you do in life depends, largely, on how long it takes you to learn this lesson.
Go to an "open" AA meeting. They are the world's true experts in alcohol addiction and it's free. Best of all, nobody there can commit you to a hospital or start calling your family or friends to talk about "how worried they are", LOL.
The individuals in AA, in my experience, are mostly very flawed. But collectively, they are a genius. I have always found that if I sit there for a meeting or two, I eventually hear exactly what I needed to hear, even if it's not what I thought I needed to hear (hope that makes sense).
I was a very good student and thought I was The Sh*t because I went to Yale and got 800's on tests. It was a big surprise to me to find out I was even stupider than some funny-looking tatooed biker or old housewife when it came to dealing with drinking problems.
Good luck. Bipolar is a bad break. Bipolar and alcohol abuse is a real bad break, but there's a lot than can be done for both.
Posted by Dade on June 2, 2008, at 0:28:06
In reply to Re: Binge drinking: brain damage?, posted by blueboy on May 29, 2008, at 7:16:20
Hi,
Great message, one has to come to the sound, concrete, conclusion that alcohol has caused enought damage and is NOT an option to use, AA, sponsors etc are helpfull, whatever keeps you away form it.
1 drink, 1 day AAT
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.